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  1. #221
    It's fine, I'll have the TACGIR guide up soonish. People definitely liked the SL-to-SL comms last Thursday.

  2. #222
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    maybe it should be worth noting that the numpad isnt used for anything in the game. its what I use to communicate with multiple people.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  3. #223
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Numpad keys are bound to ingame voice by default.

  4. #224
    Edit: NVM, it should be all good now.
    Last edited by GinSoakedBoy; 25-04-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #225
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    boris: isnt it default for us to switch off voice chat?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  6. #226
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    It really shouldn't be, if we ever run with public platoons. Which is something we should be doing more often by the way. It's really appreciated, and makes a big difference for the effectiveness of pubbie players. Can be good fun too, if you're in the right mindset. In-game voice is a requirement for that to work, though.

  7. #227
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    What I was getting at, is that there is no separate setup for regular and tacgir, or other such setups, correct?

    All I need to do is set up my two keybinds and ill be able to PL/SL/Grunt whenever I like, regardless of whether im playing one or the other?


    I think that a practical demonstration of the different situations would be much better than a textual one, even if its only once a month for 5 minutes at the start of a training day.. You could for instance quickly get people into the correct channels, and have the event leader switch between each to explain who can hear what from where, and peoples roles.

    I, for one, would be interested in a training event which went over comms discipline. Even though im fairly confident with how it all works, it would be great to have a practical demonstration of not only tactical movement, but the comms discipline, and how the entire system works, not only for regular play, but for tacgir nights and whatever else is available to us.

  8. #228
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasicPauly View Post
    What I was getting at, is that there is no separate setup for regular and tacgir, or other such setups, correct?

    All I need to do is set up my two keybinds and ill be able to PL/SL/Grunt whenever I like, regardless of whether im playing one or the other?

    I think that a practical demonstration of the different situations would be much better than a textual one, even if its only once a month for 5 minutes at the start of a training day.. You could for instance quickly get people into the correct channels, and have the event leader switch between each to explain who can hear what from where, and peoples roles.

    I, for one, would be interested in a training event which went over comms discipline. Even though im fairly confident with how it all works, it would be great to have a practical demonstration of not only tactical movement, but the comms discipline, and how the entire system works, not only for regular play, but for tacgir nights and whatever else is available to us.
    We've had 2 or 3 already. Yes, set up two binds, done.
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  9. #229
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasicPauly View Post
    What I was getting at, is that there is no separate setup for regular and tacgir, or other such setups, correct?

    All I need to do is set up my two keybinds and ill be able to PL/SL/Grunt whenever I like, regardless of whether im playing one or the other?


    I think that a practical demonstration of the different situations would be much better than a textual one, even if its only once a month for 5 minutes at the start of a training day.. You could for instance quickly get people into the correct channels, and have the event leader switch between each to explain who can hear what from where, and peoples roles.

    I, for one, would be interested in a training event which went over comms discipline. Even though im fairly confident with how it all works, it would be great to have a practical demonstration of not only tactical movement, but the comms discipline, and how the entire system works, not only for regular play, but for tacgir nights and whatever else is available to us.
    Nothing special about the TACGIR setup, keybinds-wise. The difference comes in playstyle. Check out the TACGIR thread for the most basic concepts.

    As for comms discipline and practical demonstrations, I'd recommend hopping in on a night when there's some TACGIR play going on (not every night people have had the energy to get it going), and hop into the channel with whoever is running as RO for a TACGIR squad. You'll learn more from a mentor programme, than from a training session, I'd say. Or at least the two should be combined, and as Ridebird said, we've had a couple of sessions before. That was never going to be enough, though. Things like these need to be taught by repetition, and not everyone will have attended the previous ones.

    We'll do something, at least a quick walkthrough of how to use the different Mumble channels and a bit on basic comms discipline, again soon enough. Including some of that in the outfit guide would be good. Some of it is there already, for ROs at least.

  10. #230
    Lesser Hivemind Node Nullkigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    a quick walkthrough of how to use the different Mumble channels
    This is symptomatic of what Ridebird was talking about previously.

    The following commentary is not meant to denigrate the work done so far, so please take it as a critique rather criticism. A valid response would be to ignore it, as I don't even play PS2 and only occasionally drop by these threads to check that mumble is performing effectively.

    Looking at the channel organisation right now there are simply far too many sub, sub-sub and sub-sub-sub channels. Currently there are several layers of "announcements/events", "'night' specific" and "role specific" channels, including some that will probably never see much use at all (such as the third layer of Supreme Giraffe). There are currently FIVE levels between the root outfit channel and the one intended for use during 'general' play (the ‘All Together’ channel). These don't cost anyone anything, but they do clutter the place up unnecessarily.

    The organisation should easy to understand and require no thought to use, unless you're a PL/RO (in which case you set up the binds and that's it).

    The objective the system is trying to achieve is to allow three layers of player to communicate effectively, nothing more. It does not need contingencies or special cases.

    Those layers are:
    • Squad Leads/ROs and Grunts (1 person to 11 others, stretching to ~4:22)
    • Platoon Leaders and Squad Leads/ROs (or squad leads to squad leads) (1:8)
    • Supreme Giraffes to Platoon Leaders (only when absolutely necessary) (1:4 at most)


    (holy shit, a squad leader has to actually communicate with up to 30 people if I read that right! I lose track at six!)

    You can make an argument for another layer of organisation, such as a dedicated vehicular/logistics squad, but in reality these will either be company (i.e. same level as platoon leader and answerable to the SG) or platoon level (i.e. a squad, answerable to a PL) assets. Therefore they don't need special consideration.
    The only real trick is that simultaneously with a “rigid” organisation, a “flexible” one must coexist peacefully. Currently this is the ‘All Together’ channel. However, this isn’t too difficult, and can be achieved by treating it as completely equal to the tactical organisation. As the tactical organisation should by now be uniform (and only subject to people deciding whether or not to use it at a given time), this is easily done.

    In arma we used to work with the rule of three – as follows:
    Code:
    PL
    +--Platoon Assets Liaison / second in command
    |
    +--SL
    |  +--Medic
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |  |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |  |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |     + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |  
    +--SL
    |  +--Medic
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |  |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |  |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |  |
    |  +--+FTL
    |     + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    |
    +--SL
       +--Medic
       |
       +--+FTL
       |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
       |
       +--+FTL
       |  + Grunt Grunt Grunt
       |
       +--+FTL
          + Grunt Grunt Grunt
    I remind you that we did this in a game with permadeath putting you out of the action for up to an hour at a time. We coordinated vertically by using a dynamic whisper list instead of ACL-linked channels and binds. It was easy enough to teach people to whisper to #cc (parent and subchannels) and add cc to access tokens, but it was less clear who was in charge. Hot lead and small element sizes made that less of an issue though.

    Let me transfer this model to PS2 :
    Code:
    ROOT CHANNEL
    |
    +--+Head Grazer / Liaisons / Radio Operators
    |  +-- THE HERD/ALL TOGETHER
    |
    +--+SG [commanding >150 players with just the listed channels]
       |
       +--Folks awaiting assignment
       |
       +--Company Assets Liaison and Leader (Squad One)
       |  +-- (People yet to be assigned)
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD TWO)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD THREE)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |     +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD FOUR)
       |     +--Grunt x 10
       |
       +--Platoon Liaison #1 [for 38 players]
       |  +--Platoon Leader    (SQUAD ONE)
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD TWO)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD THREE)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |     +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD FOUR)
       |     +--Grunt x 10
       | 
       +--Platoon Liaison #2 [for 38 players]
       |  +--Platoon Leader    (SQUAD ONE)
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD TWO)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD THREE)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |     +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD FOUR)
       |     +--Grunt x 10
       |
       +--Platoon Liaison #3 [for 38 players]
       |  +--Platoon Leader    (SQUAD ONE)
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD TWO)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |  |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD THREE)
       |  |  +--Grunt x 10
       |  |
       |  +--+Radio Operator
       |     +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD FOUR)
       |     +--Grunt x 10
       |
       +--Platoon Liason #4 [for 38 players]
          +--Platoon Leader    (SQUAD ONE)
          |
          +--+Radio Operator
          |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD TWO)
          |  +--Grunt x 10
          |
          +--+Radio Operator
          |  +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD THREE)
          |  +--Grunt x 10
          |
          +--+Radio Operator
             +--Squad Leader   (SQUAD FOUR)
             +--Grunt x 10
    Someone made the nice easy to understand picture (which was only really marred by having too many examples on the same slide/including alternative unit layouts unnecessarily) disappear, so I’ll get to that later.

    And for a typical night of up to 70 people you'd just take out two platoons with two to three squads each. Note that for Assets it doesn't matter if ‘Armour’, ‘Air’ or ‘Transport’ are in each squad - that's beyond the scope of the channel arrangement and up to the liaison(s) and leader(s) to figure out at the time. There's no whisper list in use directly to specific channels so it doesn't matter what they're called, only that they're flexible. In fact, the only reason I'd not call the Assets a Platoon is for clarity to people joining in.

    Now, there's an unfortunate truth to an organisation this large: some people will have no fun. It was a running joke in arma2 that Bravo Squad ('Best Squad') would be on point and have ALL the fun whenever shit went down. You simply can't avoid this problem in arma2, but in PS2 you can do it by having multiple independent theatres or, in this case, SGs. (or by treating platoon leaders as SGs and ignoring inter-platoon coordination except for the occasional shout of “anyone need support?”)

    This isn’t much different to the theory behind what is currently in use (except I haven't included the ACL format for broadcasting, which is actually now a little confusing if you have to create binds to use if effectively). However, what I want you to take away is that there’s no need for mixing up “Unit 1” with “Alpha” with “Alpha and Bravo” with “For Training” with "Armoured Squad VII: The Wreckening". A ‘unit’ is a simply an amorphous number of people who are tied to the chain of command by a handler or some sort, be that a squad leader, platoon leader or even the SupGir. If double-strength comms squads on the “Alpha and Bravo” theme need to go to full platoons, then the first platoon leader is simply the platoon leader of both the in-game platoons from the perspective of communications and the chain of command. Lose the fat and keep the muscle!

    What still NOT clear from the current documentation is the way the binds are supposed to work. There needs to be a clear description with an in-usage image summary. Nothing fancy showing two different platoon organisations at once, individual soldiers to a perfectly aligned arrangement, or anything like that. Just a collection of meaningful blocks connected by meaningful lines. This can even be done on screenshots of populated channels! (or hell, in MS paint with something like the code block above as the base)

    As I understand it, the following is true:
    Quote Originally Posted by PTT talks to people *on the same branch at your level and one level lower*
    It is used by EVERYONE.

    For GRUNTS: it talks to your fellow grunts and your squad leader/radio operator
    For Squad Leaders / Radio Operators: it talks to your grunts.
    For Platoon Leaders / Platoon Liaisons: it talks to your squad leaders
    For SupGirs: it talks to your platoon leaders.
    -insert image(s) here, showing two branches and how the chat flows down only the current users branch-

    Quote Originally Posted by REPORT talks to people *on the same branch but one level higher*
    It is used by Squad Leaders / Radio Operators and above.

    For GRUNTS: Grunts should not use this bind. (If they do, it’s like a private message to their Squad Leader)
    For Squad Leaders / Radio Operators: it talks to your Platoon Leader
    For Platoon Leaders / Platoon Liaisons: it talks to the Supreme Giraffe
    For SupGirs: it does nothing, as it will be blocked by the ACL on the Vanu – Miller root channel.
    -insert image(s) here, showing how the chat flows for the current user on a branch-

    Quote Originally Posted by SHOUT talks to *everyone on the same branch at the current level or lower*
    It is used by Platoon Leaders / Liaisons and the Supreme Giraffe to make announcement everyone needs to know about immediately.

    For GRUNTS: Grunts should not use this bind. (If they do, it’s like push to talk, but excludes the Squad Leader!)
    For Squad Leaders / Radio Operators: Should not use this bind. It functions just like PTT.
    For Platoon Leaders / Platoon Liaisons: It talks to all Squad Leaders and all Grunts below you!
    For SupGirs: It talks to everyone everywhere everywhen.
    -insert image(s)-

    I’m sure Ridebird could do a better job, and I encourage someone to come forwards and make an extremely simple, clear and visual (not more text) solution to supplement the one Zekone, GSB and Eso have already tried to pull together.

    The current stickied guide could still use a little bit of work, but it's much better than the nightmare at the start of this thread. You may wish to nuke that to prevent confusion at a later date (or scaring away prospective newbies)

    I also remind you of the ability to create small channels dynamically on the fly for people who wish to play entirely outside of this construct but still use the mumble server. This is also one of the reasons the TR channel remains (also there are TR players who read RPS, but they don’t seem to use the mumble server much). This is about the only argument I can think of for a "parking" channel - letting people build small vehicle crews on the fly and only have to deal with incoming shouts.


    Two asides:
    • Referring to new players as Calves strikes me as going too far with the Giraffe thing. Picking out newbies with special names is stupid, and whilst supporting newbies is awesome there’s no real need to go Full Native on the naming scheme. It actually adds to the crap they have to learn and, frankly, makes the whole thing out to be more serious than it really is.
    • The [RPS] tag for threads is utterly worthless – it’s not immediately distinct from anything else ever on the forums or site. I know it’s meant to stand for Rock, Planet, Shotgun but as every game sub-community uses a similar gimmick it is wholly superfluous. Use [PS2 – Vanu – EU] or something if you must. Or just [Vanu]. [Giraffes] maybe?


    OK, word dump over, back to your waterpistols.

  11. #231
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    We've had 2 or 3 already. Yes, set up two binds, done.
    Well I meant ones since this new setup, more for hammering home how the comms system works than the gameplay side.

    I just mentioned the gameplay and squad tactics part as a good time for when you could go over the mumble stuff. So basically, at the starting 5 mins or so of each training session, the comms stuff is recapped.

    This would be a great help for people who are new, especially if you cover the style of both regular and tacgir. I think its almost a necessary thing to do, because I have no doubt that there will be some people intimidated by the amount of info. Its certainly nowhere near as simple as it previously was.

  12. #232
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    @Nulk
    RE: Calves. That is a hold over from the in-game need for a rank that denied outfit invites and was never meant to be a lasting thing. The idea was that no one would be at this rank for more than a couple of days. That it has persisted is a reflection on the fact that we haven't changed things fast enough for how quickly we have grown now invitation rights are being more limited. I started writing a suggestion / discussion for an overhaul of nomenclature for members that would be less opaque but didn't finish before I went out earlier. As well as some other stuff to do with leadership / responsibility in general.
    In summary, I agree entirely with your point here. I noticed it myself a while back when "calves" was being used in everyday use in the way it shouldn't have been, and I have just been slow to pick up discussion on an overhaul.

    Re: [RPS] tags. I think I'm the only one doing this. This is intended to point out threads to do with the vanu outfit [RPS] not the NC outfit [RTRS]. Outfits appear in-game as initials in those square bracket tags and so this has become recognised shorthand. That the [RPS] tag is meaningless to anyone who isn't familiar with the game is a good point I feel stupid for having not realised, so thanks for pointing that out. I'll change the thread titles tomorrow.

    As for the rest, that makes a lot of sense. But I have yet to use the new/current system setup in the PS2 channels so can't really comment.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  13. #233
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    I honestly just got very confused by what you wrote Nullkigan. Please, please, please, less words. Keep it concise. I lost track of all the stuff you proposed. I think the system works okay now and that the description made is quite clear. If the downside is a lot of subchannels, so be it.

    This thread should be renamed or at least have a huge disclaimer at the start that this is ONLY for those VERY interested in the Mumble setup and technicalities and such. New players should never go here.
    Last edited by RIDEBIRD; 27-04-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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  14. #234
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Been away for likE a week as you know, came on Mumblez now and TACGIR channels are renamed and there's a TACGIR everyday unit. Wut? So we go there if we're only a squad..???

    May I suggest that is removed (as it's confusing) and we just have the TACGIR setup and people go to that and just hop in alpha channel if it's only one TACGIR squad?
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  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    I honestly just got very confused by what you wrote Nullkigan. Please, please, please, less words. Keep it concise. I lost track of all the stuff you proposed. I think the system works okay now and that the description made is quite clear. If the downside is a lot of subchannels, so be it.
    I agree that it seems for now at least that the new system is working, it's not perfect but we need to test it some more before we change anything. There are a lot of subchannels, but you have to go: MMOs > Planetside 2 > Vanu Soverignty > RPS Miller before you even get to the root outfit channel so a few extra isn't a big deal surely?

    I'm also working on a more detailed guide regards the separate comms channels, I will however be making it clear and concise.

    With regards to saying what the keybinds do, I'd say the guides cover that already e.g. ROs use their Keybind to talk to PLs and other ROs. I don't feel that most people will want to know the ins and outs of what the keybinds are doing with regards to Mumble. In fact people gave feedback saying as much which is why I went for a less is more approach.

    As I understand, the 'TACGIR Everyday' Unit is for when people want to play TACGIR during the week but still be reachable by the main platoon leader. Although I agree that this is a rather complicated way of doing it. I think the issue is more about how the 'All together' channel and the 'TACGIR' coordinate on a regular evening.

  16. #236
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Question: how does the PL communicate within their squad during eg a StratGir Thursday? PTT is still "talk to the whole platoon" for the PL, and Whisper only to ROs.

    I prefer leading from the front line, so I get a feel of how a battle is flowing. Without squad chatter, a lot of that is lost.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Question: how does the PL communicate within their squad during eg a StratGir Thursday? PTT is still "talk to the whole platoon" for the PL, and Whisper only to ROs.

    I prefer leading from the front line, so I get a feel of how a battle is flowing. Without squad chatter, a lot of that is lost.
    This is something else we need to figure out, although I would say it's better for the PL not to also be SL because they need to be focusing more on the big picture.

  18. #238
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    This is something else we need to figure out, although I would say it's better for the PL not to also be SL because they need to be focusing more on the big picture.
    I agree, although that is up to personal style. But if not SL, a PL does not have access to leaderchat and, most importantly, smoke. And even if a PL is not SL, they still need to be an effective part of the squad. They gave an order: how does it play out? SitReps are good, but being in the middle of it all is necessary.

    So, the question still stands: how does a PL communicate with the other members of their squad, irrelevant whether they're leading it or not.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    I agree, although that is up to personal style. But if not SL, a PL does not have access to leaderchat and, most importantly, smoke. And even if a PL is not SL, they still need to be an effective part of the squad. They gave an order: how does it play out? SitReps are good, but being in the middle of it all is necessary.
    I'd say it's up to the SLs to coordinate between themselves to carry out the orders given to them in the best way they see fit. ROs are good for sitreps and being there is also good, but I don't know how much more info you would glean from listening to a squad talk. Also, you may miss messages from your RO if you have to filter out a squad talking to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    So, the question still stands: how does a PL communicate with the other members of their squad, irrelevant whether they're leading it or not.
    I don't think there is a simple way of doing this with the current TACGIR channels, it would need a few more adding.

  20. #240
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    I'd say it's up to the SLs to coordinate between themselves to carry out the orders given to them in the best way they see fit. ROs are good for sitreps and being there is also good, but I don't know how much more info you would glean from listening to a squad talk. Also, you may miss messages from your RO if you have to filter out a squad talking to each other.
    You have a point there. But especially during major assaults, when the whole platoon is converging on one target, I feel that the PL should be in charge.

    Squad chatter is necessary to just play the game on the field. If a PL is only listening to ROs, how can they be effective on the field as an infantry giraffe? They can't listen to call outs, they won't notice little things, they'll get shot at all the time, unless they play Lone Wolf style. They might as well go and sit it out in the WG. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just not my style.

    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    I don't think there is a simple way of doing this with the current TACGIR channels, it would need a few more adding.
    Hm, how about, for those that prefer it, the PL sits in their squad's RO channel? Would they in such a case still be able to talk to and receive SitReps from every other RO, and still be able to communicate with the squad they are a member of? In such a case, would they need an additional Shout to "talk to everyone"?

    And what if it is a small TacGir unit, 2-3 squads, coordinating with the Casual Platoon? In such a case a TacGir PL can also be SL. They are just in charge of coordinating the rest of the TacGir.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 27-04-2013 at 04:02 PM.

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