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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    I dont think you can split us into only two groups.. for example, I consider myself somebody who wants both. I like our squad nights to stay tactical, but thats for when I want to play seriously.. I like it social and fairly big for when I just want to play socially or have a break/relax. I also like having a day where we go the complete polar opposite of sensible, which is why I love mondays.

    We cant get rid of one type of day just because some people dont like it... I mean, ideally we would all be the same, but its not true, and shouldnt HAVE to be true.. Personally, If i dont want to play a certain style that somebody has selected, ill just either give that day a miss, or play on my own/with other people...

    I know, as I said, that ideally we would be together regardless, but I dont see why people cant just skip the days/styles they dont like.. Its not like we all have to/want to play EVERY single day.

    I know, and agree, that you cannot play properly AND well without some organisation, but I dont agree that it should always be squad based comms either. I dont think there is one set way we should do things, because its not always going to please everyone.

    Really, if we ever decide to do a partial split, it should be in half, or if its really large, thirds. If we want to do serious/organised play, it should be 12.. If we want to do something like silly mondays, it should always be ALL of us, because the more mental it is the better for that kind of thing.

    The thing that I would like, though, is if we had another day where we just play for the sake of playing.. We dont 'really' have a day which fulfils what im talking about.. I mean something which is in between monday and weds/thurs. Something where people just have fun for the sake of it.. Some of the best moments of the game for me have been playing in full channel chat with no real aim other thandoing whatever comes next.. I dont mean zerg it, but i have no problem with that given that we wouldnt be aimed at strat play.

    I know some of you dont LIKE playing with no strategic aims, but I do occasionally, just because it means I can do what I like without having to follow orders THAT much, but still being able to co-ordinate with people and have a large chat.. One moment im sniping one of the large bases, the next I join somebody the other side of the map in a tank or plane... I dont see the problem with sometimes doing this, because frankly, if somebody doesnt like it, they dont have to play that night.. just like when I dont feel like playing seriously, I wont.

    The thing that people are getting hung up over, is trying to play every night and also reconfigure it to be the way they want it.. I understand your needs, but also that we all have our own needs. I dont think every night should ever be the same, because it gets really boring.

    Im also not trying to say "do it this way" because ultimately people will do what they want, but I really think we should stop thinking in terms of "this is a mess" and think more in terms of "oh well, yeah its a bit messy, but at least I can refocus and just have a different kind of fun", or "a different kind of night". Personally, theres much more fun to be had if you just play it differently time to time, and currently theres no enough variety in PS2 for me, which is why ive taken a bit of a break.

    Another issue I guess is that people want to make the most of their subscriptions/cert gain.. which is fair enough, but I dont think the outfit should conform to that model on a whole.. I think we should vary things to best suit every play style, even at the cost of somebody wanting to avoid certain nights.

    TLDR: In the long run, we will never all agree on one thing, but neither should we. We can play all styles/try new things/skip nights if we dont want to. I think its the simplest solution, but we are looking for something that wont happen

  2. #62
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    It's not some of us however, and I would've hoped you read the very long discussion in the other thread. There's a vast majority that prefers some more organisation. That does not mean it will always go that way, but the most of us that play regularly - and new folks - prefer more organised communication and play. That's how it is and you are the only one that did not echo this sentiment. I'm not saying you're alone, but every time we have proposed splits and such lately we have seen zero people log off and zero people saying no - and yes, we have been very careful and asked and discussed reason as to why and why not.

    If you would've played with us on a squad play night or even strategic night, you would know there is very rarely a time where you must play as X and is forced in to a role. You can do whatever you want how you want it 95% of the time. You are required to follow orders such as "attack base X". Why? Because without doing that there is no point in playing together. Wanna do it in a tank? Go for it. Wanna take a scythe? Go ahead.

    Mondays and wednesdays are not going anywhere. Fridays, saturdays and sundays will be split when needed and will not be when they are not needed. That does not mean they will be super serious and for the 500th time split comms does not imply that we go super serious. The reason why we do it is because most people prefer it, and for those that hate it there's other times and wednesdays.

    We have had a democratic approach to this and that continues. This is not about me taking control, Pauly. It's actually what most people want. Most of us think "this is a mess" and do not want to play then. Then the majority will have it their way as that's is how we run things.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    I'm not saying you're alone, but every time we have proposed splits and such lately we have seen zero people log off and zero people saying no - and yes, we have been very careful and asked and discussed reason as to why and why not.
    This is very true, the split comms decision on non-strat nights is always in good delibiration and its done when the SL's need the clarity. Its not forced upon us by some magic force in the sky. we want it when we are playing if there would have been a great opposition, then it would have been easy enough to hand PL/SL lead to those that have no desire for the splitt comms and let them feel it themselves.

    Its a silly discussion really, nor is there any real issue. We have our set nights, and our in-between nights get organized as the situation desires. In the end its up to the people in the mumble channels to decide what they want to do.

  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    The only time you're specifically told what to roll as is still not very specific. It's a spec ops squad you join voluntarily and in it they require you a) be infantry and b) roll a silencer.

    This is not about all nights being strat. Nobody wants that. What a lot of people do seem to want is the ability to speak on mumble. There's a few very vocal persons amongst us (and maybe that includes me -- I don't know), and sometimes it's hard to even get a word in. Split comms does not mean we all go into 12 man channels tops. That's not what it's about.

    I honestly think that everyone has a point where they feel the channel is too big. It's just that mine's at over ~24 and someone else's might be at ~48.

  5. #65
    Network Hub Orius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    I honestly think that everyone has a point where they feel the channel is too big. It's just that mine's at over ~24 and someone else's might be at ~48.
    Absolutely this, but splitting also depends on what is going on at any one moment along with what it is we're trying to accomplish. Which is why the dynamic system for splitting that finally got put into place works so well.

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Considering the use of Radio Operators:
    -You have to set up the same key bindings as an SL in the original post.
    -When acting as a Radio Operator, enter the SL subchannel of the platoon/squad you're in.
    -The SL may opt to sit in the channel or not.

  7. #67
    Obscure Node fishmitten's Avatar
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    So Mumble overlay / Steam issues have been mentioned in this thread previously, but is anyone experiencing a bug where the Steam overlay is completely unavailable when the Mumble overlay is enabled? Googling around suggests it could be a permissions issue and that elevating everything to run as administrator should fix it, but I don't particularly want to do that.

    Anyone had the same thing and found a proper fix for it? I'm running Win 7 x64 and I'm fairly sure this was all working fine at some point.

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've had it work sporadically, but it's been broken for a few weeks now. Dunno how to fix it.
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  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    I've been working on a new setup for Mumble comms, that should work out nicely for tactical play.


    Extremely short version:
    I'm setting up comms so that most people will never again have to fiddle with keybindings, and to support a few new tricks we've been discussing for tactical play.


    Short version:

    Setting up comms is always a hassle, because we've got new channels cropping up every so often, and for every squad we have in play, everyone in leadership/comms positions need to set up a new keybinding to whisper to that SL/RO. Even worse, if we were to split squads into pairs for better coordination, we'd need to turn off the whispers to the other squads temporarily, and this is such a bother.

    So, I wanted to find a way to make sure that leaders/ROs only need to set up one set of keybindings, once, and ensure that channels are structured and configured so that these keybindings will always do exactly what we want them to do, regardless of what squad/platoon setup we run with. I think I've found a solution that is easily expanded if need be!


    What do I need to do? (Thanks zekone for the screenshots!)
    If you never lead anything, all you need to worry about is getting into the right channel. Business as usual, in other words. Only thing to keep in mind is in this setup, command channel is the parent, and you should go in the subchannel. You will not need to read the rest of this post, unless you want to.

    Platoon Command whisper
    If you want to play as a squad leader or radio operator, you need to add one keybinding t
    o whisper to the command chat; the PL and the other SLs:


    Unit Command whisper
    If you are intending to lead a squad, you want to be able to coordinate with the other SLs in your unit. Bind a whisper to the parent channel and all of its subchannels:


    Every option in these screens is important, so make sure you get them right.

    Now, as soon as you're sitting in a squad command channel, you can use your Platoon Command whisper to talk to the PL and all other other SLs in the platoon. Use the Unit Command whisper to talk to the other commanders in your unit only. If your squad is moved to another unit, these bindings will still do exactly as advertised, keeping you in contact with your platoon and unit respectively.


    Longer version:

    What do we want out of our comms system? I see the following needs:
    1. Squads need to speak to their SLs, constantly
    2. SLs need direct contact in groups of two or some other number, to coordinate tactics
    3. SLs and PL need two-way contact with eachother for orders, intel and requests
    4. PL needs to be able to address everyone at once, from time to time



    This is the channel structure I propose, explained below:



    Okay, so the needs I listed above are fulfilled like this:

    1. Squads need to speak to their SLs, constantly
    As before, using linked channels, SL in one, squad members in the other, all that is said using the PTT key, is heard in both of the linked channels. Any whispers to the squad command channel does not transfer to the squad member channel.

    2. SLs need direct contact in groups of two or some other number, to coordinate tactics
    Solved by adding an empty layer of channels between squad and platoon, let's call this layer units. Unit 1 may consist of squads Alpha and Bravo. In Mumble, it is possible to set a whisper to the parent of whatever channel one is currently in, so we use this for SL-to-SL tactical coordination. Leaders set up a whisper to "Parent" and all subchannels. Alpha Squad and Bravo Squad channels use ACL settings to disable whispers from their command channels, so this is a SL tête-à-tête between anyone who is in the same unit.
    The elegance of this is it is dynamic. I we moved Charlie into Unit 1 on Mumble, they would automatically be included in the SL-only channel, without fiddling with any keybinds!

    3.SLs (or ROs) need two-way contact with eachother and PL for orders, intel and requests
    We handle this by a whisper to the Platoon Leader channel and all linked channels. Platoon Leader is linked to all of the squad command channels, and rules are set in place to disallow anyone other than the PL and the correct SL to speak to a squad's members. SLs or ROs can use this whisper key to report and make any requests they may have of the platoon in general. This should be used sparingly! PLs use the same whisper as SLs to hand out orders and request information.

    4. PL needs to be able to address everyone at once, from time to time
    This is the only bit that is a little tricky. Because of the heavy use of linked channels, the PL will use his standard PTT key to talk to everyone in the platoon. This is the only way I could figure out to allow PLs to talk to everyone, without making SLs do that too, on the platoon command channel.
    So, platoon leaders need to set up one more keybinding, that will whisper to the Platoon Leader channel and all subchannel. This key is used if the PL employs a staff squad, or brings one of the other squads into Platoon Leader channel with him, like so:




    Technical details:
    This setup relies heavily on ACL (Access Control List) rules, specifically using the @sub rule, that allows us to filter traffic depending on what channel the sender is in. For instance, we deny anyone to speak (using PTT) and whisper to all of the channels in the platoon, and use @sub rules to allow only certain very specific exchanges to take place. In the last image above, Alpha and Bravo Command channels have a @sub rule that allows them to whisper to eachother, or rather, to any channel that is at the same level as them (2 steps down from Platoon). Alpha Squad has no such rule, and thus, by whispering to Unit 1, Alpha and Bravo commanders get a private whisper.

    By setting up a whisper to Parent channel and all subchannels, Alpha and Bravo commanders get a key that works irrespective of which unit they are in. So, if Charlie were to be moved into Unit 1, Charlie Command would instantly be in the Unit 1 command loop, without having to do a thing.

    Any changes in command structure are easily accomplished simply by moving the channels around in Mumble! For which we do need channel admins (EsotericReverie, Cooper or MrEclectic, currently).

    All of the channels are linked, because this allows us to separate between PL-to-command loop and PL-to-absolutely-everybody. Squad Command channels are set up to accept whispers from the Platoon Leader channel, whereas squad member channels do not. All channels accept "speak", meaning push-to-talk, from the Platoon Leader channel, giving the PL a means of addressing the whole platoon at once using his PTT key.
    Last edited by EsotericReverie; 17-04-2013 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Added section on keybindings

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Nice... Really nice!

    So, even if we do a Hydraffe, SLs will be able to speak to the SLs in the same unit only, which will be the one designated to a specific Hydraffe target. Reduces the confusion. The only thing is an admin will have to ALT-Tab and do the moving of the Squad Channels to the appropriate Unit Channels. Can we as Mumble Admins promote others to Mumble Admins as well? I think that setting BLs as Mumble Admins would be preferable.

    On a tangent, how about we reevaluate the positional plugin? Perhaps it has its uses.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 17-04-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Nice... Really nice!

    So, even if we do a Hydraffe, SLs will be able to speak to the SLs in the same unit only, which will be the one designated to a specific Hydraffe target. Reduces the confusion. The only thing is an admin will have to ALT-Tab and do the moving of the Squad Channels to the appropriate Unit Channels.
    Yes, precisely. I Alt-Tab out of the game constantly anyway, when PLing, to see whether people are in the correct channels and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Can we as Mumble Admins promote others to Mumble Admins as well? I think that setting BLs as Mumble Admins would be preferable.
    I am not sure. I think maybe? There's a risk in spreading the admin rights too widely though, because it is rather easy to mess something up.

  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    Yes, precisely. I Alt-Tab out of the game constantly anyway, when PLing, to see whether people are in the correct channels and all that.



    I am not sure. I think maybe? There's a risk in spreading the admin rights too widely though, because it is rather easy to mess something up.
    I completely agree. But having only Cooper, you and me as Mumble Admins is too restrictive. I think we should mention it tonight during meeting

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Once you have tried this setup, let me know if it's working as intended and is what you want for ops. Then I'll update the front post here and migrate the info over to the outfit guide.

    I'll probably setup something similar for the casual / dual squad comms where PLs and SLs have one button that shouts to one channel and only the SLs and PL hear (so all leaders on one whisper as we used to do). With a bit of @sub-ing it should be possible to have the same button that is used to "shout to parent" work in both situations so that SLs moving from TACGIR to casual don't have to use different shortcuts.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    4. PL needs to be able to address everyone at once, from time to time
    This is the only bit that is a little tricky. Because of the heavy use of linked channels, the PL will use his standard PTT key to talk to everyone in the platoon. This is the only way I could figure out to allow PLs to talk to everyone, without making SLs do that too, on the platoon command channel.
    So, platoon leaders need to set up one more keybinding, that will whisper to the Platoon Leader channel and all subchannel. This key is used if the PL employs a staff squad, or brings one of the other squads into Platoon Leader channel with him, like so:

    What was wrong with the old "point a shout at top level channel and click the "shout to all subchannels" bit?

    Other than that, sounds great Eso. What we really need is a single set of bindings that always works, rather than stuff that only works provided we use a very specific set of channels.

  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    What was wrong with the old "point a shout at top level channel and click the "shout to all subchannels" bit?
    That was my first thought too, then I realised the problem:
    Shout to Platoon and subchannels is basically the same thing as shout to Platoon Leader and linked channels, because all the channels that can hold people are linked. And because Mumble only distinguishes between whisper and speak, there would be no way to tell the squad channels to accept one whisper, but not the other. In practice, all squads would always hear the PL talking to the Squad Command channels. If we instead use the speak (PTT) thingy for PL-to-all-shouty-stuff, we can suddenly allow that through to squad, while stopping the whispers used for platoon command comms. It could be the other way around, but then that keybind would mean different things for PLs and SLs, and I dislike that notion.

  16. #76
    Activated Node zekone's Avatar
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    I was hopping around helping Eso set this all up this morning, and it seems to work really well. My favourite bit is that there's no rebinding required when changing squads or roles or anything (well, unless you become a PL, I think they have an extra key to bind). I would propose a couple of screenshots to show SLs/ROs/PLs the correct setup for the two binds they need. I took screenshots of what I believe to be correct setups:

    To talk to the PL:

    PL.jpg

    To talk to other SL's in your unit:

    UnitSLs.jpg

    Every option in that screen is important.

    EDIT - testing new image uploads
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by zekone; 17-04-2013 at 09:22 PM.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekone View Post
    I was hopping around helping Eso set this all up this morning, and it seems to work really well. My favourite bit is that there's no rebinding required when changing squads or roles or anything (well, unless you become a PL, I think they have an extra key to bind). I would propose a couple of screenshots to show SLs/ROs/PLs the correct setup for the two binds they need. I took screenshots of what I believe to be correct setups:
    Looks very good! I'll just add these to the big post.

  18. #78
    I was also on earlier and what Eso has set up is some sort of magic. It'll need testing under actual battle conditions but moving everything server side means that an SL, RO or even PL only need two binds and their regular ptt keys. It's also all dynamic, making it such a great improvement over what was already pretty great.

  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    I was also on earlier and what Eso has set up is some sort of magic. It'll need testing under actual battle conditions but moving everything server side means that an SL, RO or even PL only need two binds and their regular ptt keys. It's also all dynamic, making it such a great improvement over what was already pretty great.
    Heh, thanks. The documentation for the ACL system for Mumble is a bit so-so. In total, I think it took me six hours or so, to get everything working.

    Looking forward to seeing it in practice. Sadly, I won't be able to play much tonight, I think. I could try to arrange a walkthrough of the setup for those interested in trying it as SL, or just learning how it works. But that will have to be very soon, or tomorrow, before stratgir. Would like to see it used then, if not before.

  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Soo uuuh what do I need to set up?
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