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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    It isn't running on an A10.
    So what is it running on?

  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    So what is it running on?
    Earlier rumours re: SoC design from AMD, look at them. ¨_¨

    EDIT: Due to worrying about NDA and such I edited this a bunch. Just take it as read that future consoles will blitz past PCs for about a year and then be taken over. As is the usual way of things.
    Last edited by Zephro; 08-01-2013 at 09:22 PM.

  3. #103
    Look, if it's going to be a hybrid, it's not outperforming high end discreet GPUs, not now, not ever. Doesn't matter if it's A10 or the newest Bulldozer.

  4. #104
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    Look, if it's going to be a hybrid, it's not outperforming high end discreet GPUs, not now, not ever. Doesn't matter if it's A10 or the newest Bulldozer.
    Suit yourself, it will though. Theoretically SoC is better due to latency and bandwidth, it's just a matter of cramming all of it onto the silicon. So far they've only crammed on budget GPUs. But if you crammed on the same CPU and same GPU from a discreet system it would run faster. Though you still get memory bandwidth issues which is another issue.

    Anyway none of the consoles will have precisely off the shelf components, so just comparing it to them won't yield useful results.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Theoretically SoC is better due to latency and bandwidth, it's just a matter of cramming all of it onto the silicon.
    That is pretty theoretical considering the fact that for each transistor you cram into a hybrid, a discreet GPU solution can get two.

  6. #106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    That is pretty theoretical considering the fact that for each transistor you cram into a hybrid, a discreet GPU solution can get two.
    And that discrete GPU solution will need a workload that can be done in chunks/be pipelined AND is sufficiently large so that transfer times don't overcome it.

    It is definitely a case of tradeoffs which is what the industry is investigating these days.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    By that logic, the best interests of Steamworks and Steam are already at odds. By not charging for Steamworks, they allow people to buy stuff from other online stores or shops and get all the Steam functionality and get nothing in return. They do it because it drives people to their store front, which is the long term goal. They're already sacrificing money for market share, so I don't see it as infeasible that they'd do the same thing again with subsidising hardware.

    Plus a subsidy doesn't mean straight money off. They might take a PS+ 'instant game library' approach where you get a discounted console but there's a 12 month sub to Valve+, which gets you free games throughout the year. Or the MS route of charging the end-user a small subscription for enhanced features. Or charge a higher price but include $100 of Steam wallet credit.
    They are, to a point. The critical difference is the nature of the cost of bandwidth vs. the cost of hardware. It's thousands vs. millions. Also, when someone buys a Steambox they are already a Steam customer, so you get a reduced driving customers into Steam effect.

    The problem is that the straight money approach is where consoles look really appealing to the average consumer. The price of PC rigs is consistently brought out as a point against it, even though its far cheaper in the long run. Similarly, the PS3 was more technically advanced in some respects, but it got a consistent drubbing in comments for its high price point.

  8. #108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    They are, to a point. The critical difference is the nature of the cost of bandwidth vs. the cost of hardware. It's thousands vs. millions. Also, when someone buys a Steambox they are already a Steam customer, so you get a reduced driving customers into Steam effect.

    The problem is that the straight money approach is where consoles look really appealing to the average consumer. The price of PC rigs is consistently brought out as a point against it, even though its far cheaper in the long run. Similarly, the PS3 was more technically advanced in some respects, but it got a consistent drubbing in comments for its high price point.
    Actually, the long-run cost is arguable

    Lifespan of the PS3: About 6-8 years it seems
    Cost of PS3 at release: Originally about 500 USD
    Price per year: About $72

    Lifespan of XBOX 360: 7-9
    Cost: 400
    Price per year: 50
    Price of Live for 8 years: 400
    Price per year if you wanted multiplayer and the like: About $100

    Lifespan of Wii: About 6 years
    Cost: 250
    Price per Year: 41.6

    Keep in mind that all of these prices are assuming "Buy new, play the entire life cycle", but I suspect the rates remain relatively constant at "50-70 dollars per year" even if you buy the console after a price drop (because the life cycle is noticeably shorter).

    Thus, a PC needs to have at least a price of 50 dollars per year for it to really compete. Considering that the video card alone will cost you around 100-200 bucks (this is assuming you want to play relatively new titles), that already puts it in the Wii-range of needing to last 6 years without upgrades/a new rig.

    There are arguments that games are cheaper on the PC, but most of those involve buying titles a few months after release (which is true on all platforms) or heavy reliance on bundles (which potentially cost more in the long run because it is hard to say no to a bundle :p). And while I can't speak for XBOX or Wii, the PS3 comes with a metric crapton of free titles if you subscribe to PS+. I would posit that, assuming you only buy the games you really want to play and shop sales, PC games end up being cheaper.

    And, obviously, if you are content with older titles/systems, both approaches are equally cheap.

    So I would say, assuming the same gamer, PC gaming and console gaming are of comparable cost.
    Okay, actually, PC gaming probably loses horribly because people buy Alienwares that cost over 1000 dollars, meaning you have to not upgrade for 20 years to reach that 50 dollar sweet-spot... But let's assume an intelligent person who builds their own system and knows how to shop a bargain so as to not want to kill ourselves :p
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  9. #109
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    That is pretty theoretical considering the fact that for each transistor you cram into a hybrid, a discreet GPU solution can get two.
    Sort of, sort of not. The trend in CPUs has been to use the extra transistors to just cram either more cores or more cache onto the same chip. There are diminishing returns on doing that because the thread coherency protocols don't scale well and caches become less optimal per transistor over a certain size. Also you already cram on SIMD units as co-processors for vector maths which is basically the same structures as in GPUs so using something like openCL means you can move that over to the GPU to do.

    There's also a certain amount of replicated work in GPUs and CPUs.

    That plus console programmers get to work down to the metal rather than through the OS and drivers, you'll end up with something that will zip past PCs for a year or two. But that's just the usual cycle.

  10. #110
    Network Hub buemba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Convenience, convenience, convenience.

    They don't need to hope. They have PC gaming wrapped around their finger, with the vast majority of a plurality of the market. Ultimately speaking, they're extending that into the console world, and have the deep pockets to make inroads.

    Between glorified tablet games and a large number of low-resource indies, to say nothing of every non-EA game on the market, they have a console that has a larger library than pretty much anything. Once the hooks are in, it's free sailing for their app market. I mean, for fuck's sake, Steam isn't a closed box as is, and I've spent thousands over the past six years on their platform.
    That works for PC gamers. The thing is, gamers are a miniscule part of the potential market interested in buying affordable computers. No matter how convenient it is my parents would never buy a game on Steam, but they'd still jump at the opportunity to buy a decent PC for cheap, and I bet there are way more people like them than there are like you and me.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Keep in mind that all of these prices are assuming "Buy new, play the entire life cycle"
    Given the failure rates of 360s, I doubt very much any one still has a working launch model.

  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buemba View Post
    That works for PC gamers. The thing is, gamers are a miniscule part of the potential market interested in buying affordable computers. No matter how convenient it is my parents would never buy a game on Steam, but they'd still jump at the opportunity to buy a decent PC for cheap, and I bet there are way more people like them than there are like you and me.
    Yes, your parents would love to buy a PC marketed for gamers, reverse and remove any pre-installed software, search online for workarounds meant for their new system and then, what, call you to set it all up?

    Or they can buy a name-brand workstation for the same price that's set up for what they actually want the machine to do.
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  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Yes, your parents would love to buy a PC marketed for gamers, reverse and remove any pre-installed software, search online for workarounds meant for their new system and then, what, call you to set it all up?

    Or they can buy a name-brand workstation for the same price that's set up for what they actually want the machine to do.
    Name-brand workstations come with way more crap than this will ever have. Do you want me to count all my pre-installed Asus software?

  14. #114
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Again, why does the world need still another sealed game-box?
    Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!

  15. #115
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    The fact that it's tiny is irrelevant.
    No, it isn't. You are not going to cram a decent gaming PC into a box that size. Even a larger HTPC form factor is going to have trouble with some games at 1080p, unless you firmly target midrange (even then you'll have to expect to drop to 720p for some titles). Again I've yet to see something of this size offer decent and consistent gaming performance across the board, even at 720p. You're right that L4D isn't going to be taxing, but L4D came out in 2008. Most of the Source games aren't overly taxing (TF2 is a different story). Move up into more modern games with more modern engines and things change.

    This box needs to be bigger to accommodate better hardware (a better GPU specifically) to push new and future games at a consistent FPS at 1080p. Otherwise it's not going to beat out consoles. It'll be a waste of money. Valve would no doubt be aware of that, hence it's either going to be aimed at the indie game sector, or it'll be a streaming device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    No, the fact that it's tiny means it can't contain a decent CPU and GPU combination because it's simply too much cooling for such a small thing. Sure, the final product may be much bigger, in which case it's another story. But like this? It's not really going to be for gaming, at least not much beyond Angry Birds.
    Oh thank you, somebody gets it. For all we know it could end up being based on a microATX form factor which offers more space for a decent GPU, but if it's something around this size then you're absolutely right.

  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/8/385...ture-of-gaming

    Mindblowing interview with GabeN at The Verge. DAT GUY IS SO SMART!!

  17. #117
    Network Hub Gwilym's Avatar
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    SWEET CRIMINY I LOVE THE NEW BEARD. It's a great salve for the lack of Half-Life news.


  18. #118
    Network Hub buemba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Yes, your parents would love to buy a PC marketed for gamers, reverse and remove any pre-installed software, search online for workarounds meant for their new system and then, what, call you to set it all up?

    Or they can buy a name-brand workstation for the same price that's set up for what they actually want the machine to do.
    Yeah man, formatting a machine and doing a clean install of Windows is real hard. My mom may have a knack for installing toolbars, but even she can manage that. And even if she couldn't, she'd be more than happy to learn if it meant paying much less of what a name-brand workstation with comparable configuration would cost (Since those aren't sold at a loss).

    The fact that it's probably going to be small is also a bonus.
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  19. #119
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Earlier rumours re: SoC design from AMD, look at them. ¨_¨

    EDIT: Due to worrying about NDA and such I edited this a bunch. Just take it as read that future consoles will blitz past PCs for about a year and then be taken over. As is the usual way of things.
    Not necessarily. Sure, they'll get more optimized games, but at some point the inadequacy of the console hardware will shine through. And all indications are that the next-generation consoles will have hardware comparable to the lower end of current mainstream desktop gaming hardware.

    Some of the older rumours were saying the PS4 would have something comparable to an A8 APU with a Radeon HD 7670. That does not color me impressed.

  20. #120
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Not necessarily. Sure, they'll get more optimized games, but at some point the inadequacy of the console hardware will shine through. And all indications are that the next-generation consoles will have hardware comparable to the lower end of current mainstream desktop gaming hardware.

    Some of the older rumours were saying the PS4 would have something comparable to an A8 APU with a Radeon HD 7670. That does not color me impressed.
    Considering that "lower end" desktop hardware for gaming is minimum reqs, that means 1-2 gigs of ram and a dual core. PS3 and 360 already beat the crap out of that in processor terms and they effectively have comparable RAM once you take into account that consoles are much more memory efficient (on account of having much fewer background tasks).

    So if the next gen has even 2 gigs of ram and the same processors, that puts it on par with current mid-high end gaming PCs (3-4 cores, 2-4 gigs). And it is safe to assume that they will have stronger processors.

    So they will definitely outspeed "normal" gaming rigs, and will probably be on-par with the monster machines.
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