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Thread: Cyberpunk 2077

  1. #141
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    Perhaps you should go to Google Scholar and search for scientific papers that quantify what kind of body (most) women prefer.

  2. #142
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReV VAdAUL View Post
    Perhaps we should ask actual women rather than rely on assumptions? Perhaps asking the people at heart of issues generally their opinion should be the general rule?
    Nah, nah, nah. Clearly the ideal male as far as men are concerned is the same ideal male that women like. CLEARLY

    Just saying, :p http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comi...seequivalence/

    Obviously everyone is different and everyone has different tastes and preferences, but it is nice to get a take on a character based on physique/facial features that a large number of women acutally find attractive and what nots. Plus, it is a strangely arousing Batman that doesn't look like he could break me with one hand.
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  3. #143
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Perhaps you should go to Google Scholar and search for scientific papers that quantify what kind of body (most) women prefer.
    Art, in other words.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Plus, it is a strangely arousing Batman
    Tell us more.

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    I am really psyched for this game, but ... I really am at a loss for words that so many people instantly jump on this as sexist. Its anything but, firstly, we've got the bullets, not laser guns, failing to give her more than a scratch (also using bullets is a nice little nod to say that the solutions we have to problems today won't work, not to mention that its one of gamings more refined mechanics, this trailer implying it won't work.), so she's straight up post human.

    Then, what I got out of it at least was that the attire is both used narratively (the lack of it shows clear augmentation joints on her thighs, shoulders and super arms, as well as showing her skin as impenetrable) as well as interpretatively. What came to mind when I first saw the scythes was the idea of a fallen angel (I mean the way they're angled and proportioned like wings is a giveaway), or even stretch it to a kind of transhumanist Icarus.

    Not only that, but the clothing she does have is white, suggesting purity, of the essence or her humanity or whatever, surrounded by her limbs with perfect skin, but which are no longer human. What I got from it was that shes tarnished her humanity in blood, taken great mental cost, I'm the pursuit of physical perfection. It could also be style of the time, given the shop window woman in the same getup.


    But what I really, really got put of it is that they're taking the cultural
    Ideal we have of beauty today, plastic surgery, the make up, clothes, this pursuit oif artificial beauty we have today with for example women in their 50s like madonna , fighting their natural aging process to try and look like their 20, taking this culture, throwing it into the future, using trans humanism to take it to its end point, and then juxtapose it with her murdering a dozen people to show how inhuman our cultural obsession with beauty has become. We have a whole culture of beauty built around fighting our humanity, quashing out human imperfections, fighting the aging process, and by taking it to the very extreme, where people,e could become flawless, everlasting beauties, but at the cost of ones humanity. There is no way I could have gotten that interpretation with a male protagonist either.

    Not to even mention sexuality as empowering, females and males can be empowered by looking good, I mean you see it when a chubby person who once dressed frumpily, gets their act together, loses weight, eats right, works out, before long they're getting their groceries in a sports bra and some skin tight jogging shorts. External validation is very powerful with some people, especially those whom identify themselves as attractive. Tying back into the beauty culture, being beautiful is empowering, and people who identify with themselves that way will go to great lengths to stay beautiful. They don't want to age gracefully and die, they want to be young forever, they want to fight their human destiny, and the technology of cyberpunk embraces that.

    Or maybe I'm wrong and those chaps at CD project are just appealing to the lowest common denominator.


  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Tell us more.
    So much mangin... ops, betas ITT

  7. #147
    Oh look, slow-motion sexualized violence, directed along the usual channel (men -> woman).

    How "gritty." How "mature."

    Ooh maybe someone will get a blowjob and then say a swear. Another groundbreaking work of immersion from Cd Projekt.

    Bunch of pre-teens with a render farm. God help us.

  8. #148
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Oh look, slow-motion sexualized violence, directed along the usual channel (men -> woman).

    How "gritty." How "mature."

    Ooh maybe someone will get a blowjob and then say a swear. Another groundbreaking work of immersion from Cd Projekt.

    Bunch of pre-teens with a render farm. God help us.
    Look past those silly little things though and you'll see a company who have produced some of the best PC games in the last six or seven years, and one who have given a very generous and comparatively enlightened presentation of women as far as gaming goes. They clearly invest a lot of time and effort over the role women play in their games which places them absolute light years ahead of most of the competition. There aren't many games who give nearly as much time and power to female NPC's either. In the first Witcher Shani and Triss occupy so much more time than any other character except Alvin and Geralt, and they do so as fully formed individuals.
    Last edited by sonson; 11-01-2013 at 11:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    Look past those silly little things though and you'll see a company who have produced some of the best PC games in the last six or seven years, and one who have given a very generous and comparatively enlightened presentation of women as far as gaming goes. They clearly invest a lot of time and effort over the role women play in their games which places them absolute light years ahead of most of the competition. There aren't many games who give nearly as much time and power to female NPC's either. In the first Witcher Shani and Triss occupy so much more time than any other character except Alvin and Geralt, and they do so as fully formed individuals.
    Whats with the hardon for strong females? Nowadays there must be stwong females or the social parade will go nuts. Oh well, one more reason to stay the hell away from the game media. So much talk about social ishulz, art, narrative and less talk about the game itself.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Oh look, slow-motion sexualized violence, directed along the usual channel (men -> woman).

    How "gritty." How "mature."

    Ooh maybe someone will get a blowjob and then say a swear. Another groundbreaking work of immersion from Cd Projekt.

    Bunch of pre-teens with a render farm. God help us.
    Teaser is shit, but social ishulz have nothing to do with it. the overabundance of slow-mo and forgettable music is to blame. They need to learn some lessons with hideo kojima or Square enix...

  11. #151
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    Look past those silly little things though and you'll see a company who have produced some of the best PC games in the last six or seven years, and one who have given a very generous and comparatively enlightened presentation of women as far as gaming goes. They clearly invest a lot of time and effort over the role women play in their games which places them absolute light years ahead of most of the competition. There aren't many games who give nearly as much time and power to female NPC's either. In the first Witcher Shani and Triss occupy so much more time than any other character except Alvin and Geralt, and they do so as fully formed individuals.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    If they at least talkeda about the damn game..
    This is enjoyable for a lot of us. You can always reply to the ones that aren't about sex and sexism. Then people will reply to you about it. There's been bits about GITS and Snow Crash running throughout much of the sexism discussion, for example.

    I don't think I get what you are trying to say in the second half of your argument. I think the card collecting is a trivial and silly facet of the game no matter whether Geralt has sex with women, men or both. Just because the main character is heterosexual doesn't mean that the card minigame becomes something which demeans women.
    I agree. I think I want to respond to most of the posts I've seen over the past few pages while I was away by pointing back to my earlier statements: a truly fair world is like a truly fair coin. It doesn't showcase perfect equality unless you look at an infinite number of it's products--in other words, never. What you should see, however, is a distribution that tends roughly towards equality over an expanse of time. We don't see that in video games, we don't see that in movies, we certainly don't see that in trailers. The main difference between stereotyped women and stereotyped men, sexual or otherwise, is that men have substantially more power in modern society. The same goes for minority ethnic groups in a given cultural sphere--it isn't that saying racially focused things is bad (or making racially focused jokes is bad) in some transcendent fashion nor is it bad because it makes people uncomfortable. It's about the sheer weight of context and history combined with discomfort combined with the other paths that could have been taken combined with author intent combined with audience perception. It's about the full package.

    Now a more direct response. Big picture? I don't see this trailer as part of the problem. I personally find the sex cards tasteless for non-gendered reasons and also saw them as part of the problem ... but I think the perspective that they aren't part of the problem is a perfectly reasonable one. I understand it's merits, I just think the big picture stacks up a little differently that you do when you tally things up. Either way, we're left with a difficult problem. It's easy to respond to someone shouting "Get back in the kitchen" both because even in the context of todays inequalities it is absurd and extreme in addition to being discriminatory (and potentially hateful, context obviously depending). But when the big picture is stacked in a particular way that is problematic and we have media that isn't necessarily part of the problem but can easily be seen as such and doesn't necessarily ameliorate the problem ... what do we do? I don't think anyone's really responded to that question, but I'm also not sure there's a good answer other than what we're doing--talking about it.

    I don't want us to be those people. You know the ones. The people who wield their personal philosophy and usually taste like the almighty hammer of Thor--wedging it where it doesn't belong and never budging or considering alternatives. Social liberalism has it's Phyllys Schlafly's too--they use similar rhetoric to academic feminists and company but they apply it with all the sense and care of, well, Thor.

    But we can still talk about it. And recognize that even things we're comfortable with and especially things we're uncomfortable questioning can be problematic. That it's not necessarily political correctness gone mad (stew) to question this trailer, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    I didn't spot a direct reply to your question, so here's my take:

    I assume you saw the first GitS movie, which is very much a typical product of Mamoru Oshii in its approach to storytelling, you probably don't / won't like his other movies as well. The sequel is less philosophical, and more noire than the first, which basically tackles the themes of the nature of humanity / what it means to be human / how technology affects/changes humanity, it is effectively a combination of the original manga and Blade Runner, but more introspective than both of them.

    GITS SAC revolves around smaller cases presented in a episodic format that link together to form a bigger picture as the series progresses and as such is closer to the formula of the original manga: the tone is a lot less philosophical than the movie (still you get at least an introspection per episode on average :P) but far more dry than the manga - which has more than its fair share of silly/comedic moments in addition to explicit sex sequences.

    I'd say SAC is both excellent and the most accessible part of the franchise, and if you want to give it another try, it's probably your best bet.
    Someone did respond, actually, but thank you for your contribution. :) I loved the themes of the first one, it just didn't address them in a way that felt fictionally coherent--I wanted to love the philosophical bits and I loved some of them (the boat scene worked really well for me). But the culmination of all the little threads in the movie fell flat. I don't think the movie brought it home--and since the conclusion was more philosophical than fictional and I felt like it failed me there, I was left feeling like not much had happened. Thus my blasphemy of not thinking the movie told an interesting story--it's a bit of a miswording on my part. I feel like it had the elements of an interesting story--it just did not finish that story, or didn't tell in in an interesting way, or didn't integrate them properly with it's philosophical core, etc.

    Sounds like I should try SAC--you're the second of two who've said so. :)
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  12. #152
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Whats with the hardon for strong females? Nowadays there must be stwong females or the social parade will go nuts. Oh well, one more reason to stay the hell away from the game media. So much talk about social ishulz, art, narrative and less talk about the game itself.
    I like getting life stuck all up in my games. Bring on the philosophy, the social issues, the art, the narrative! I love games, I love mechanics, I love design. I could blab on for days about my board game collection and what makes a good RPG system. But I like my media multi-faceted. It's efficient. I could read one book here that has great action and another book here that has great ideas and another book here that has great prose ... or I could read Neuromancer or (I hope) Diamond Age, or Curse of Chalion or The Man in the Iron Mask or a number of other good all-rounders and have so much more to talk about for the same amount of time spent reading. And, you may have noticed, I rather like to talk. ;)

    As for strong women ... it's a relative thing. If the norm was 2D, big, bulked up, no-nonsense women then having someone who was a little more vulnerable and multi-faceted would be awesome. Better characters all around would be great. 2D characters can be great. I'm a big fan of the Muppets, for example, and it's mostly vaudville-esque stock characters (some very old, some unique to the Muppet Show). But I like some balance. When a game does something that requires more than one layer to a character (Metroid Other M) for it to work properly, I need to be given an interesting, multi-faceted character that fits the design goals. Otherwise it falls flat. Also, perpetuating problematic cultural stereotypes in entertainment media isn't a good thing, either. Anything, however, in moderation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Come on, that's a decent song.
    I like it too. I keep putting the trailer on in the background because I like that particular cutting of the song so much, even.:)
    Last edited by gwathdring; 12-01-2013 at 12:44 AM.
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  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    Look past those silly little things though and you'll see a company who have produced some of the best PC games in the last six or seven years, and one who have given a very generous and comparatively enlightened presentation of women as far as gaming goes. They clearly invest a lot of time and effort over the role women play in their games which places them absolute light years ahead of most of the competition. There aren't many games who give nearly as much time and power to female NPC's either. In the first Witcher Shani and Triss occupy so much more time than any other character except Alvin and Geralt, and they do so as fully formed individuals.
    What's so great about the presentation of females in TW2?
    Most of them are whores, and even ones who aren't offer sex in gratitude.
    Triss is a damsel in distress for most of the game, one of the stronger female characters gets raped, another one isn't actually a woman at all, a third one gets kinky lesbian scenes and so on.

  14. #154
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyrieee View Post
    What's so great about the presentation of females in TW2?
    Most of them are whores, and even ones who aren't offer sex in gratitude.
    Triss is a damsel in distress for most of the game, one of the stronger female characters gets raped, another one isn't actually a woman at all, a third one gets kinky lesbian scenes and so on.
    I guess the question is whether it feels gratuitous and whether it works within the fiction of the world and the characters function as people. I can't answer, I haven't played it. I'm wary of the "But there's sexism in our fictional world and/or it mirror's the real world" defense, but not because it can't be valid.
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  15. #155
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    Not a moment of gameplay and 8 pages, elbow swords are bad guys.
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  16. #156
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Thus my blasphemy of not thinking the movie told an interesting story--it's a bit of a miswording on my part.
    Just FTR the blashemy was saying the story of Blade Runner is not interesting (I should've be pointed that out!)

    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    and since the conclusion was more philosophical than fictional and I felt like it failed me there, I was left feeling like not much had happened.


    I don't know what you mean with "fictional conclusion", but it may be worth pointing out that a certain type of japanese cinema relies more on images that the viewer has to absorb and decode, rather than the usual outspoken-ness that we westerners are typically familiar with - I'm not sure that's your case, but that may leave the feeling that the film is a bit hollow.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I feel like it had the elements of an interesting story--it just did not finish that story, or didn't tell in in an interesting way, or didn't integrate them properly with it's philosophical core, etc.
    The first movie follows a compressed version of the storyline from the original manga, so you might want check that out too - I remember it being a lot more intricate and colorful than the movie.
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  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    Look past those silly little things though and you'll see a company who have produced some of the best PC games in the last six or seven years, and one who have given a very generous and comparatively enlightened presentation of women as far as gaming goes.
    In which universe? I should like to visit it some day.

    There aren't many games who give nearly as much time and power to female NPC's either. In the first Witcher Shani and Triss occupy so much more time than any other character except Alvin and Geralt, and they do so as fully formed individuals.
    You know where else women get lots of screen time? Porn. Triss, as I recall, is first introduced to the player as a pair of tits. You see them before you see her face. That is how she enters the world of the Witcher. Fully formed, certainly. Individual? Not so much. Or is the "individual" part where you get to collect a pinup card for fucking her? That game couldn't pass the Bechdel test if it was multiple choice.

    And you know what? Another bloody soft-snuff game teaser that couldn't be a more thinly-veiled gangbang if it were wearing an actual thin veil is not a "silly little thing." It is telling girls growing up right now that they shouldn't be playing games, let alone considering designing or programming them - because they are the playthings. And it's telling male gamers that they are simple, predictable beasts, hardwired to want a thing so long as it offers women to use or watch being used. No matter the quality of the actual content underneath. They're saying, "You will always be 13." And so I'm saying, "You will never get my money."

    The trailer could have been made without a scantily clad woman be shot in provocatively slow motion. (Oh! But the bullets bounce off her seductively! What a reversal! What power this character us, to be on her knees and being shot in an unexpected way!) It wasn't. Everything about it and all my experience with the Witcher tells me that CD Projekt have nothing thoughtful to offer, just a bunch of tired old provocation dressed up as something new because they know most gamers have simply come to expect so fucking little from the medium.

  18. #158
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    You know where else women get lots of screen time? Porn. Triss, as I recall, is first introduced to the player as a pair of tits. You see them before you see her face. That is how she enters the world of the Witcher. Fully formed, certainly. Individual? Not so much. Or is the "individual" part where you get to collect a pinup card for fucking her? That game couldn't pass the Bechdel test if it was multiple choice.
    There was also the awkwardness of the playboy shoot ...

    As for the Bechdel test, reading the article you linked to

    The Bechdel test only indicates whether women are present in a work of fiction to a certain degree. A work can pass the test and still contain sexist content, and a work with prominent female characters can fail the test.[3] A work may fail the test for reasons unrelated to gender bias, such as because its setting works against the inclusion of women (e.g., Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose, set in a medieval monastery).[4]


    In an attempt at a quantitative analysis of works as to whether or not they pass the test, at least one researcher, Faith Lawrence, noted that the results depend on how rigorously the test is applied. One of the questions arising from its application is whether a reference to a man at any point within a conversation that also covers other topics invalidates the entire exchange. If not, the question remains how one defines the start and end of a conversation.[2]


    Nina Power noted that the test raises the questions of whether fiction has a duty to represent women (rather than to pursue whatever the creator's own agenda might be) or to be "realistic" in the representation of women. She also wrote that it remained to be determined how often real life passes the Bechdel test, and what the influence of fiction on that might be
    I rarely see that test used in an especially meaningful way. We can't look at only whether or not the Bechdel Test conversations are in a work. We have to look at what else isn't in the work, what actually is in the work, and why. In other words, it might make a great conversation starter and make a great one-liner about a casually sexist work of fiction (especially if it's superficially female-friendly such as by having a female lead character) ... but if you want to say something meaningful, you're going to have to do meaningful analysis. Not little litmus tests here and there.
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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Just FTR the blashemy was saying the story of Blade Runner is not interesting (I should've be pointed that out!)
    I had a very similar reaction to Blade Runner, really. Here, I'll quote me to give you more of where I come from on Blade Runner:

    The next impression I have of Blade Runner is that everything short of the sound and visuals is incredibly sparse. The performances, the camera movements, the dialog, the story being told, and most of all the happening. This is a very slow, very moody film and I’m not convinced it has all the right pieces to pull that off. Let’s being working our way through the film to see why.
    We’re in touch with the escaped Androids every step of the way. We know what their endgame is, we know how well they’re proceeding. This sort of dual-action formula can work, but it requires something compelling other than the mystery of the chase–maybe the suspense of Deckard following the wrong trail or stepping into a trap. None of that really happens here. Instead we have Deckard half-heartedly and somewhat ineptly following a series of exceedingly simple waypoints that, other than the aformentioned surreality of the whole affair, feel more like a routine police investigation tackled by a down-on-his-luck-for and none-too-sharp private investigator than an intriguing mystery.
    [Deckard] isn’t the cool, slick, accomplished protagonist we’re used to. [...] Personally, I find that in itself refreshing. In this particular film, though, I repeatedly get the impression I’m supposed to be on Deckard’s side. His actions are supposed to be seen as ambiguous [..] but we’re still generally supposed to be on his side. Towards the last act of the film this became exceedingly difficult as it became clear he wasn’t much of a character; all of the depth hinted at before had in fact been revealed in full. This was not a complicated man, and while he was uncomfortable with the moral and physical circumstances his work put him in I felt like it was the discomfort of someone out of their depth rather than someone reconsidering their life and the meaning of the world around them.
    It is already an incredibly strange movie, with some odd and non-functioning elements […] seeing [how inept, unlikeable and unrelatable Deckard is] as an intentional move rather than a gaffe gives the film a greater sense coherence and message–but [still] not enough to flesh out its current reputation as anything other than a sensory masterpiece.
    Blade Runner was quite different from what I expected; I expected a cat-and-mouse game or a mystery-action-thriller set in a grim future. What I found was more of a character piece or a surreal tone drama. This wasn’t wholly a bad thing and I was pleasantly surprised by how much world building replaced my imagined action but I was unpleasantly surprised by how little of anything else was to be found.
    Without spoiling the film, it continues to become more loosely connected and surreal until the very end. There are never any particularly big reveals, never any profound changes for any of the characters. Blade Runner was more of a portrait than a story, then. Nothing in it really moves. Not much really happens. It passes by and then fades again. Beautiful, strange, and then gone. Like tears in–sorry.
    I think all of the things I didn't like about it could have worked. I just don't feel like they worked together properly, especially given how incredible the visuals, sound, camera work and other technical elements slid together with the world building and dialog (I go on about that a lot in the review the above is all taken from, but I've already posted a ton -bashful face - )
    The first movie follows a compressed version of the storyline from the original manga, so you might want check that out too - I remember it being a lot more intricate and colorful than the movie.
    I'll definitely add it to my list then. I really wanted to like GITS so much more then I did.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 12-01-2013 at 04:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    In which universe? I should like to visit it some day.
    The one in which we all live, you should come back to it.

    And you know what? Another bloody soft-snuff game teaser that couldn't be a more thinly-veiled gangbang if it were wearing an actual thin veil is not a "silly little thing." It is telling girls growing up right now that they shouldn't be playing games, let alone considering designing or programming them - because they are the playthings. And it's telling male gamers that they are simple, predictable beasts, hardwired to want a thing so long as it offers women to use or watch being used. No matter the quality of the actual content underneath. They're saying, "You will always be 13." And so I'm saying, "You will never get my money."...
    See, the thing is, your are accusing the trailer of things based on your own screwed-up perception of things. The problem lies with you if you think that this friggin teaser was bloody soft-snuff game teaser that couldn't be a more thinly-veiled gangbang. And it's a pity if you refuse to see the depth which is acknowledged by everyone else, in CDPR's games just because you get a seizure on seeing a bunch of tits.

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