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Thread: Cyberpunk 2077

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    The trailer could have been made without a scantily clad woman be shot in provocatively slow motion. (Oh! But the bullets bounce off her seductively! What a reversal! What power this character us, to be on her knees and being shot in an unexpected way!) It wasn't..
    So what's your knowledge of core Cyberpunk20X0 themes?

  2. #162
    The problem lies with you if you think that this friggin teaser was bloody soft-snuff game teaser that couldn't be a more thinly-veiled gangbang. And it's a pity if you refuse to see the depth which is acknowledged by everyone else, in CDPR's games just because you get a seizure on seeing a bunch of tits.
    So which is it: I see sex everywhere (square N-4 on the anti-feminist response BINGO card), or I refuse to see anything which involves sex (Square I-2)? Are people who interpret things differently than you perverts, or just prudes?

    So what's your knowledge of core Cyberpunk20X0 themes?
    Next to nonexistent. What's the relevance of your question? Other than letting me cover off B-3.

  3. #163
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReV VAdAUL View Post
    Perhaps we should ask actual women rather than rely on assumptions? Perhaps asking the people at heart of issues generally their opinion should be the general rule?
    Well, my girlfriend thinks the teaser is indeed sexist but says that sexism towards both women and men is part of our society, and especially so in advertising.
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  4. #164
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Well, my girlfriend thinks the teaser is indeed sexist but says that sexism towards both women and men is part of our society, and especially so in advertising.
    I think it is slightly disingenuous to speak of sexism against both men and women as though it is the same in western society. It might have similarly negative effects on individuals in particular cases, but there's still a clear social, political and economic power differential that really complicates matters when we start to talk about sexism targeting men. When it is predominantly men who control our media images, whether or not those images are sexist towards men becomes rather less straightforward.

    This isn't a matter of bad vs. worst, mind. Just a matter of syntactical clarity. Sexism means different things when we talk about men and women because there are typically differentials of power and privilege.

    I don't think the word "sexist" is especially useful in this discussion without qualification because in addition to being a highly charged buzzword, everyone applies distinctly different connotations to it. Those two together are a bad mix.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 12-01-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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  5. #165
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    What's sexist about this trailer? The girl was going to the nightclub. She is wearing white nightclub dress and red high heels (that are shown seconds before her). You can see her (60s, puritan style) white lingerie because of the way she's sitting so the dress rolled up a bit. WHOAH! How could they...

    Guys, don't leave your home at night, there are women out there who wear even more disturbing dresses when partying. I guess they all shall be busted for sexism. God help us all.

  6. #166
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zepp View Post
    What's sexist about this trailer? The girl was going to the nightclub. She is wearing white nightclub dress and red high heels (that are shown seconds before her). You can see her (60s, puritan style) white lingerie because of the way she's sitting so the dress rolled up a bit. WHOAH! How could they...

    Guys, don't leave your home at night, there are women out there who wear even more disturbing dresses when partying. I guess they all shall be busted for sexism. God help us all.
    It would be nice if you'd read the nuance I've seen in almost every response here, or at least some of the posts that agree with you before lecturing the entire thread.
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  7. #167
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    I think we should show this thread to a few lasses on a Saturday night out in Newcastle, that would be funny.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Next to nonexistent. What's the relevance of your question? Other than letting me cover off B-3.
    It helps to demonstrate that you have very little means to comment on the case in an informed manner. Yet you do. In raging hyperbole.

  9. #169
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    I think the trailer throws up some interesting questions. My biggest concern with the game is how rigidly they follow Mike Pondsmiths rather hackneyed Cyberpunk vision. From the blurb for Cyberpunk 2020: -

    "The Corporations control the world from their skyscraper fortresses, enforcing their rule with armies of cyborg assassins. On the Street, Boostergangs roam a shattered urban wilderness, killing and looting. The rest of the world is a perpetual party, as fashion-model beautiful techies rub biosculpt jobs with battle armored roadwarriors in the hottest clubs, sleaziest bars and meanest streets this side of the Postholocaust. The Future never looked so bad.

    But you can change it. You've got interface plugs in your wrists, weapons in your arms, lasers in your eyes, bio-chip programs screaming in your brain. You're wired in, cyberenhanced and solid state as you can take it to the fatal Edge where only the toughest and coolest can go. Because you're CYBERPUNK."

    http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...rs=500_0_0_0_0

    I thought it was kind of weird when they announced the game and he got up on stage and started yabbering to everyone about how the game was going to continue to be set in Night City, and then a bunch of things no one aside from a few P&P devotees would really care all that much about in truth (he has a great deep voice though)

    The problem I see is that Pondsmith's world is just over heavy and tactile. He's grabbed onto the visual descriptions in Gibsons Neuromancer series and crossed it with a bit of Sigue Sig Sputnik: -



    and just yanked everything up to 11.

    The thing with cybernetics in Neuromancer is that by on large they're the exception rather than the rule. Sure most people have neural implants, just as today most people have mobile phones, but the Lupus Wonderboys and Molly Millions of body hackers really represent the fringes of things in the Books. The problem with overuse is when you make something the norm, you have to redefine the extreme. Thus were now we're being presented with an apparently bulletproof lady who has scythes implanted in her arms. Nowhere near as discreet as Molly with her fixed sunglasses and retractable razor blades really.

    Also tbh the physical stuff in the Neuromancer series was always a side aspect Vs the whole cyberspace thing I felt. The thing that made the Panther Moderns fascinating wasn't so much their appearance, but how they leveraged technology to achieve their goals. They're the 4chan/anonymous of the series. Similarly although not fully realised to my mind in the books, stuff like the celebrities whom people would tune into to literally see & experience the world through their eyes (fine tuned by the broadcasters naturally) was kind of compelling. The idea that you could vicariously experience the frivolous life style of the rich and famous on the other side of the planet for a few hours for a price from your cheap capsule hotel room in Chiba is still an intriguing concept, that's not really been fully explored (I guess Avatar delves into it, and there are hints of it in Inception as well with the roomful of dreamers). Just as people lose themselves in MMOs, imagine people losing themselves in being Kim Kardasian, Ryan Gosling or even going to the seedier side of things, think porn. What happens when the fantasy meets reality? A few years ago I was at Victoria station during rush hour and I spotted someone I recognized across the way. I'm terrible with peoples names, but thought I'd go over and say hello hoping I'd recall where I knew them from (did we go to art college together?) and I was literally two feet away before I checked myself and realized it was someone off a Big brother show I'd watched as a student, and they wouldn't have a clue as to who I was. There was this weird disconnect between me knowing about them, and them having zero knowledge of me.

    Essentially, I kind of think that those aspects of cyberpunk are the really interesting ones to explore especially through the medium of games where you could pull it off, but more than likely we're just going to end up with copious amounts of combat enhancing implants and crazy guns etc.
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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think the trailer throws up some interesting questions. My biggest concern with the game is how rigidly they follow Mike Pondsmiths rather hackneyed Cyberpunk vision.
    Judging by the concept art and the trailer itself it seems the Style component of the setting has been slightly toned down from the, well, whatever that video was. But Cyberpunk's face was always very punk in an almost literal way, so I don't see them going all Virtual Light on this. Low key is not be expected.

    About the ubiquitous nature of tech in the setting - that's kind of a must. The core of if revolves around the issue of empathy loss induced by tech and makes it a social problem. It has to be widespread to be at least somewhat believable, even if out fear of technology has subsided recently, or at least isn't on the levels of what we saw in the 80s. I don't necessarily hold it against CP2020. The core of the issue still follows the genre's basic ideas - social deconstruction caused by rapid advancement.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    ...
    Thats a lot of words, and a very interesting post.

    I think this people are "just tryiing to make a game", and even this level of ambition will slow them down to something we only will experience in 2016!.


    Anyway your ideas intrigue me :D
    Maybe something can be delivered by a small indie group with other type of ambition, other type of game, maybe experimental gameplay.

  12. #172
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Oh look, slow-motion sexualized violence, directed along the usual channel (men -> woman).

    How "gritty." How "mature."
    What is sexualised about the violence? Serious question... how is the violence 'sexualised'? I'm not really seeing anything sexual in the violence. Maybe it's just how you perceive the woman... you see a sexualised female? I'm just seeing a woman in her underwear being shot, none of which is necessarily sexual or sexualised.

    As for the rest of your post, I think we were having the discussion in a much more adult and mature fashion until you arrived. You should perhaps restrain yourself with the disingenuous assumptions about those you're trying to argue against.
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    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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  13. #173
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    In which universe? I should like to visit it some day.



    You know where else women get lots of screen time? Porn. Triss, as I recall, is first introduced to the player as a pair of tits. You see them before you see her face. That is how she enters the world of the Witcher. Fully formed, certainly. Individual? Not so much. Or is the "individual" part where you get to collect a pinup card for fucking her? That game couldn't pass the Bechdel test if it was multiple choice.

    And you know what? Another bloody soft-snuff game teaser that couldn't be a more thinly-veiled gangbang if it were wearing an actual thin veil is not a "silly little thing." It is telling girls growing up right now that they shouldn't be playing games, let alone considering designing or programming them - because they are the playthings. And it's telling male gamers that they are simple, predictable beasts, hardwired to want a thing so long as it offers women to use or watch being used. No matter the quality of the actual content underneath. They're saying, "You will always be 13." And so I'm saying, "You will never get my money."

    The trailer could have been made without a scantily clad woman be shot in provocatively slow motion. (Oh! But the bullets bounce off her seductively! What a reversal! What power this character us, to be on her knees and being shot in an unexpected way!) It wasn't. Everything about it and all my experience with the Witcher tells me that CD Projekt have nothing thoughtful to offer, just a bunch of tired old provocation dressed up as something new because they know most gamers have simply come to expect so fucking little from the medium.
    I'd say that you rather judged her to be a pair of tits because she had some big ones to be honest.

    I've just gone back through the intro there. Sure Triss wears a revealing top, but I'd say that's only a problem if that's all she is, and she isn't. She's introduced to you as a character who fights alongside her male peers as an equal, is not worried about contradicting and challenging said peers, and who does more than most of stem the assault using her magic. She is presented as very much an equal in terms of what's going on when we first meet her. She isn't a bimbo, nor is she a warrior princess, she's a capable warrior/sorceress who is also female. Pair of tits to you though apparently?

    Later on in the game she and the other female character Shani talk about work, wars, politics, every day stuff, aspirations, philosophy, life, death. In short, they come across as people. Triss is notably more sexualsied than Shani in how she dresses but she is also a character who seems more sensual as a character. Sex seems more important to her, both as a tool and as a thing she enjoys pursuing. She isn't a nymphomaniac or the like though. It would be a severely imbalanced and inaccurate view that presented that on the basis of what she wears and the fact that she is not a madonna.

    Have you never met a woman with a big cleavage on display before who was not also a fascinating and impressive all round individual? You seem to suggest that a sexualised woman is compensating for something in being pleased about their body rather than just celebrating it as one of their many facets. Many women do of course, but one isn't in a position to judge that that's the case without talking to them and getting to know them. Otherwise it's just objectifying them in another sense. You're still defining them on the basis of how they look and how they are presenting their bodies.

    I know that most games present women in a pretty demeaning, sexualised sense, but there is nothing else to them beyond that. It is accurate to read their outfit as being shorthand for everything else they are because the games in question do nothing to dispel the notion that they are just T and A. But just because they have seemingly colonised sex and women in this negative sense dosen't mean that every boob and conventionally attractive woman is a device for empty and mysogonistic portrayal of females. The context is what matters and in this instance you have ignored it because the character in question is showing some skin.
    Last edited by sonson; 12-01-2013 at 02:01 PM.

  14. #174
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Change thefuckign subject already,6 pages of arguing about sexism,what the hell..


    Here listen to the song from trailer..


  15. #175
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Oh! But the bullets bounce off her seductively! What a reversal!
    Assuming, for a moment, that we're not reading 50 Shades of Tom Clancy... But how, exactly, does a bullet bounce 'seductively'? Again, serious question... why are those bullets ricocheting so seductive, in your perception? What is so different about these bullets bouncing that we are supposed to be seduced by? Again... I'm not seeing the seduction of the bullets. Perhaps I am armoured against their charms. I just thought that it was in slow motion, and they were exploding into sparkly dust, to show the resilience of the woman's armour/implants, or the tech that turns incoming bullets to dust using sonic pulses (a common Cyberpunk thing).

    As a few people have said, you do seem to be making some pretty disingenuous assertions about CDPR and their games, based on... you seeing sex everywhere. A 'thinly-veiled gangbang'? Really? Interpretations like that are really, really stretching things. I can't even begin to see where the 'gangbang' aspect comes into this. For me, it's a female MAXTAC officer remembering how she was recruited... the flashback brought on either by the song, or because they're going to recruit someone new. There's very little sexual in the whole thing (one of the shops in the background).
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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  16. #176
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Assuming, for a moment, that we're not reading 50 Shades of Tom Clancy... But how, exactly, does a bullet bounce 'seductively'? Again, serious question... why are those bullets ricocheting so seductive, in your perception? What is so different about these bullets bouncing that we are supposed to be seduced by?
    The smooth penetrating hea-yeah I don't get it either. I'm not getting sexist here, I'm getting this:



    A teaser inspired by the half-naked cybernetically enhanced woman getting shot up by cops from Blade Runner.

  17. #177
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    The smooth penetrating hea-yeah I don't get it either. I'm not getting sexist here, I'm getting this:



    A teaser inspired by the half-naked cybernetically enhanced woman getting shot up by cops from Blade Runner.
    He wrote a very fine piece on Max Payne 3 but didn't once mention the entire mechanics of the game, bullets slowly entering the form of idealised male form, as being a gay fantasy, so it would be a bit odd if bullets slowly entering the form of an idealised female was being construed a sexual thing.

  18. #178
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    Judging by the concept art and the trailer itself it seems the Style component of the setting has been slightly toned down from the, well, whatever that video was. But Cyberpunk's face was always very punk in an almost literal way, so I don't see them going all Virtual Light on this. Low key is not be expected.
    The problem with punk is that punks not cool, and hasn't been for a very long time. Cool as a concept represents a certain degree of edge into the unknown. To quote William Gibson 'there are no maps for these territories'. When your grandmothers sporting tribal tattoos, ear stretchers and mohawks those things are no longer cool, they're com-modified lifestyle uniforms that anyone and everyone will buy into on the basis that doing so makes them cool. You don't buy cool, you invent it. What makes us distinct is what we think/how we think at the end of the day, far more so than any outward appearance, especially those looks lifted wholesale from others, without the least attempt at understanding or reinvention (Japanese goths anyone? Google image search says it all).

    About the ubiquitous nature of tech in the setting - that's kind of a must. The core of if revolves around the issue of empathy loss induced by tech and makes it a social problem. It has to be widespread to be at least somewhat believable, even if out fear of technology has subsided recently, or at least isn't on the levels of what we saw in the 80s. I don't necessarily hold it against CP2020. The core of the issue still follows the genre's basic ideas - social deconstruction caused by rapid advancement.
    Well I think is the crux of the matter/problem. The entire premise of DX:HR was on pretty flimsy ground really with the notion that lots of people would flock towards pretty substantial augmentations to the degree demonstrated in the game. Jensen didn't have much choice in the matter given the state of him, but there didn't really seem to be much justification/reasoning behind a lot of it in terms of everyday people, and certainly not to the extent that hundreds of millions of people would voluntarily submit to limb amputations (not just people with real disabilities), and that it would become a huge social issue.

    It's kind of faulty Sci-fi in the same way that the comic/film surrogates was built on faulty logic. The idea that people would live their lives through remote avatars from the comfort of their own homes is a really interesting idea to explore. The problem is the comic/film assumes that they'd essentially live as we do now just through robots. So they'd still drive to work, and use elevators and type on keyboards etc, etc none of which really makes much sense when you can effectively control androids remotely.

    Obviously it has to be born in mind that when Cyberpunk was conceived many of the things we take for granted didn't exist and weren't necessarily even envisaged (if memory serves me correctly mobile phones are conspicuously absent in Neuromancer) but at the same time there's no reason not to consider the now and how things might evolve (and are very much likely to) rather than plough ahead regardless with ideas that come across as frankly quaint and antiquated in many ways. I'm not saying things need to be bedded in a total reality (which can be rather humdrum) , but I think the best speculative fiction is written from the perspective of building upon a solid foundation from which to depart from. JG Ballard was the master of this in many ways, especially if you look at works like High rise, Cocaine nights, Super Cannes & Crash, where he puts a spin on the present and generates a new reality from it. Gibson is the same in that he was leveraging notions of technology and scientific advance at the time and speculating off of them. If we're going to get cyberpunk, let's have cyberpunk that is leveraging off present technology rather than drawing off yester years ideas as to what future will be.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 12-01-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    The problem with punk is that punks not cool, and hasn't been for a very long time. Cool as a concept represents a certain degree of edge into the unknown. To quote William Gibson 'there are no maps for these territories'. When your grandmothers sporting tribal tattoos, ear stretchers and mohawks those things are no longer cool, they're com-modified lifestyle uniforms that anyone and everyone will buy into. What makes us distinct is what we think at the end of the day far more so than any outward appearance.
    I would argue that cool can also be derived from referring to the past. From the ever living vinyls to the brief return of 70s weird trousers, past that's mentally distant enough will be cool. Now, whether they can pull off that vintage style punk aesthetic well enough for it to be an organic evolution rather than a hacky transplant is to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Well I think is the crux of the matter/problem. The entire premise of DX:HR was on pretty flimsy ground really with the notion that lots of people would flock towards pretty substantial augmentations to the degree demonstrated in the game. Jensen didn't have much choice in the matter given the state of him, but there didn't really seem to be much justification/reasoning behind a lot of it in terms of everyday people, and certainly not to the extent that hundreds of millions of people would voluntarily submit to limb amputations (not just people with real disabilities), and that it would become a huge social issue.
    I see your point, but bear in mind that the Deus Ex factor, the whole body modifications, are reserved for the minority in the CP setting - mostly the player characters and their opponents, that is to say people who are either military or gangster, either way dealing with violence, where tech edge is important. The idea of psychosis was however built in such a way that pretty much anything that connects to the nervous system could cause it, be it an artificial arm, an eyesight correction implant or a replacement kidney. A memory enchantment the size of a pinhead can make you go berserk assuming your empathy was low enough to begin with.

    I do agree that the notion of going bananas because you've got circuitry in your brain does seem rather handwavey, but it's not entirely implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    If we're going to get cyberpunk, let's have cyberpunk that is leveraging off present technology rather than drawing off yester years ideas as to what future will be.
    I'm sure there won't be any faxes in CP2077.

  20. #180
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    ]I would argue that cool can also be derived from referring to the past. From the ever living vinyls to the brief return of 70s weird trousers, past that's mentally distant enough will be cool. Now, whether they can pull off that vintage style punk aesthetic well enough for it to be an organic evolution rather than a hacky transplant is to be seen.
    I'm not saying cool always has to be materially new. But it's generally inventive, even when referencing the past. Normally a degree of subversion is taking place.

    I see your point, but bear in mind that the Deus Ex factor, the whole body modifications, are reserved for the minority in the CP setting - mostly the player characters and their opponents, that is to say people who are either military or gangster, either way dealing with violence, where tech edge is important. The idea of psychosis was however built in such a way that pretty much anything that connects to the nervous system could cause it, be it an artificial arm, an eyesight correction implant or a replacement kidney. A memory enchantment the size of a pinhead can make you go berserk assuming your empathy was low enough to begin with.

    I do agree that the notion of going bananas because you've got circuitry in your brain does seem rather handwavey, but it's not entirely implausible.
    It's not so much that it's handwavey, it's more that it's just a singular resultant that is the concern.

    I'm sure there won't be any faxes in CP2077.
    I'm on about leveraging an idea of the future built on 80s/90s ideas of cyberpunk in the same way that Fallout leverages the idea of a shattered future built off of 50s streamlined idealism.
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