But yeah, even in that case, the material was "acceptable" by the target audience. It just also was "acceptable" by audiences he didn't approve of.
In both cases the message was clear: What were jokes in part about race relations, largely in an effort to decompress Black anger, were interpreted by white TV audiences as lampooning Black culture, and neither Chris Rock nor Dave Chappelle were looking to be Uncle Toms.
In effect, they put their hair down over racism in an effort to laugh at themselves and discovered that racism still exists, which is effectively a slap in the face of their careers and their hopes for society at large. This is a point that Paul Mooney has repeatedly observed, and for comedians looking for their niche, it's a harsh discovery that America still enjoys the comedy stylings of Jeff Dunham without any hint of irony.
To draw a parallel to here, it's hard to make the usual sexist internet jokes (get in the kitchen, shut up a man's talking) and expect to be understood that you're being facetious because there are obviously quite a lot of internet idiots and gamer cretins who legitimately hate and revile women, to the point where you feel bad even broaching the topic as you are only giving them fuel to feed their wrongness.
I cannot bring to words just how much I hate this subculture sometimes.
Obviously if Gearbox and the Dead Island devs got together, they could make even a humorous parody game so offensive that everyone would be in an uproar. But, generally, there is a lot more freedom in something that isn't supposed to be taken seriously, if only due to the context.
People should never make racist or sexist jokes to anyone who isn't someone they are very familiar with. Even then, 90% of the time it's still in bad taste. It's fun to joke about stereotypes but like you guys have observed, much of the time they are mistaken for truth.
I did tell my girlfriend to go back to the kitchen after she beat me at Starcraft though. She thought it was hilarious.
The idea of making such jokes in comedy is to show people how ridiculous and stupid those stereotypes are. But when people laugh because they think they're actually true.. well, you get a Dave Chapelle situation.
I think the problem here is that sometimes you have to take a step back and look at things broadly. While yes no hollywood action film/military man shooter game / something else with under represented women, are individually sexist necessarily because the stories they're telling just aren't about relevant I think the collection can have issues.
Something is probably a bit wrong more broadly (socially) if such and such a genre, while not having anything to do with gender per se, never has strong female characters. Now I'm not suggesting knee jerk shoe horning stuff in or going around censoring people as that is impinging on individuals artistic vision (or whatever), but it does make me uneasy as a trend.
I think it's what the Bechdel shows, not that any individual thing is sexist but that the general trend doesn't seem to be great.
Another analogy, as a programmer in video games I interview for various positions but we don't really get any women applicants and as such women are really under represented in my office. Now it's not because we're being sexist individually, but there is something odd their deeper in society.
Anyway I just blame the parents, then get fed up that no intervention will ever stop people being shit parents, then I drink.
I think one issue for action movies is that a LOT of them go with "former (US) special forces", which makes the female lead kind of difficult for obvious reasons. Being former special forces pretty much makes all "How can they know how to do this?" problems go bye bye, and the US helps the target audience to relate.
But yeah, there definitely is an overall lack of strong female protagonists. But, at the same time, I don't think it is particularly fair to judge an individual work on those grounds. Going back to the original topic: People praise Bioware for making random NPCs gay, and then bash them for not including gay people in Star Wars. None of those really influenced the plot in any particular way (although, as mentioned, Cortez was well written). So why should a game be bashed or criticized for not checking the box if it didn't detract from the experience? I don't think anyone can say that the world of Star Wars was less for not having an (openly) homosexual character?
Criticize the overall medium/genre/whatever, but attacking the individual works just seems to encourage the "We have this list of races, sexualities, religions, and philisophical outlooks that we need to cover. Get to it"
And I know what you mean about the programming thing. I am an Electrical and Computer Engineer, and I like to joke around that in my class for undergrad, there were one and a half women (I think the "half" might already be starting her gender reassignment therapy? I dunno, I lost touch after graduation). It is definitely a big issue that people are trying to find solutions to.
And I still think the Bechdel test is garbage. Seriously, quite a bit of Joss Whedon stuff fails it horribly. Even a lot of episodes of Buffy failed horribly. And it isn't because Joss ias a secret mysoginist. It is just that he generally tried to include the whole cast. So Buffy might be insanely badass and empowering, but because there wasn't a specific scene of just her and Willow talking about the apocalypse, a given episode will fail.
Last edited by gundato; 16-01-2013 at 01:37 AM.
Could you guys talk using more universal stuff? Most of us dont know obscure USA comedians :-(
In a game like Mass Effect, you can't know what the player is going to choose and end up writing something vital that wouldn't change based on decisions that would be completely idiotic in a given situation based on the past decisions of the player. I'm not using her particularly as an example, but just pointing out how people who write for video games need to actually know their shit and want to play games.
Last edited by venn177; 16-01-2013 at 07:27 AM.
(For the record I agree it's a garbage test, with massively corruptible results by non-gender-related factors.)
I still think the Bechdel Test has a use, not as an actual test of merit in an empirical sense as that is clearly sodding nuts. However it is interesting if you do it over a large number of samples to see the wider trend.
Last edited by Zephro; 16-01-2013 at 10:11 AM.
- Gameplay dude design level.
- Gameplay dude and script guys write a early version of the level.
- Writter create a reason why the character is there and is doing what we need him to do. Maybe write the boss speech, and some notes.
- Writter describe the hero running away, after the princess has ben killed.
- Gameplay dude has to create a running away level or ask the cutscene guys to create a "hero is fleeing" cutscene.
I think most studios works more like A, or thats more like what people seems to describe it. And often don't even have a writer, so any writting piece comes very late in development. Maybe theres a "Studio C" where the writter and the gameplay and script dudes cooperate, and everybody do his part.
My own impression is that I have still to see a game where the history compromise the gameplay. The only exception are RPG games where the story describe a "ticking bomb", while the game is best played slowly exploring all places and doing meaningless quests (this is perhaps the case with ME3?). But this is a very minor thing, us vets RPG gamers can ignore these ticking bombs things.
Admittedly it is somewhat different when you use the gameplay to tell the narrative but that doesn't happen much outside of clever indie titles at the moment, where the writer is the designer.
they're doing it in real life.
Hell, we've discussed this several times before. (ex) (ex) (ex)
Also, your argument denies the harmful effect of words, and also makes the incorrect assumption that this sort of discrimination can be neutered with a mere "fuck you."
But the assumption is that censorship can? I never understood that point. Education and awareness is supposed to rectify all this but perhaps appealing less to emotion and more to logic would be the better way forward. So rather than making a big fuss, shouting about the indignity of it all and encouraging censorship, rebuking the offending viewpoint through logical arguments.Also, your argument denies the harmful effect of words, and also makes the incorrect assumption that this sort of discrimination can be neutered with a mere "fuck you."
But anyway, this Gay Planet thing is an example i think of going way too far. Obviously made the gay planet because too many complained there wasn't homosexual content, and now that they do it, they're accused of ...well, what exactly? Charging extra for it? And therefore acknowledging the divide between people who want such content and people who don't?
Of course it's never that simple and it obviously feels like you need to pay more if you want to be gay since the rest of the game is free. On the other hand, it is new content so it should be okay for them to charge for it maybe? Could they have added those characters to the free content planets to avoid such accusations? Since it's always such a controversy every time something like this happens, should they have not bothered with it after they missed having them on launch?
I don't know. All I know is I dislike everyone who thinks we shouldn't have homosexual relationships in video games because they are not comfortable with it.
Last edited by Caddybear; 16-01-2013 at 04:25 PM.
But it's not, subscribers just get it half price, because they are indeed dicks.