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  1. #41
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    In general, AI liberation. That is, AI used to simulate an opponent that plays against you on equal rights, as opposed to being just a moving target with a ton of HP.
    This would make MMOs actually playable.
    Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!

  2. #42
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    I miss game manuals with art, flavor and lore text.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    I miss game manuals with art, flavor and lore text.
    I miss the belief that expecting players to look things up in a manual is ok.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    I miss the belief that expecting players to look things up in a manual is ok.
    I don't. Not putting a tooltip in seems kind of lazy now. That's different from the 1800 bajillion pages of lore that came with some games, which was neat.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    I miss game manuals with art, flavor and lore text.
    Mass Effect's codex basically was that - sure, it was not printed (it was voiced though) but I really love what they did there.

    The movement styling of Mirror's Edge didn't get the hell copied out of it even after the sequel went under. This ... doesn't exactly amaze me because a lot of people thought that they were crap or that first person platforming is some sort of enhanced interrogation technique, but it does make me very sad.
    Battlefield 3 took some cues from it, fortunately - a pity you can't do rolls though.


    Things I personally miss: The ability to play LAN with my brothers without requiring a seperate key for each game (Last seen in CoD4).
    Classic base building RTSes! It's a shame that Starcraft 2 is the only game currently getting any attention (Age of EMpires 2 is still played a lot, though).

  6. #46
    Network Hub corbain's Avatar
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    I think no MMO has ever reproduced the excellent player cities mechanic from the original Star Wars Galaxies. It really was amazing being able to build cities anywhere in the world, for them to be uninstanced and with their own player elected mayors.

  7. #47
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    I miss secondary fire modes of weapons in FPS games. It was especially fantastic in Unreal and UT where the secondary fire was radically different - the frag cannon in particular was incredibly flexible due to the short range shotgun blast and long range lobbed shot. And combo shots with the shock rifle were great too.

    Nowadays this feature seems to have been entirely relegated to machine guns with attached grenade launchers. And then proceeds to only ever give you two grenades, making it barely ever used.

    In a way this is also due to non-real-world weapons going MIA. I'm going to blame CS for starting the trend of having 50 'realistic' weapons, all of which are variants on some kind of pistol or machine gun for gun fetishists to wank over.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangyTang View Post
    I miss secondary fire modes of weapons in FPS games. It was especially fantastic in Unreal and UT where the secondary fire was radically different - the frag cannon in particular was incredibly flexible due to the short range shotgun blast and long range lobbed shot. And combo shots with the shock rifle were great too.

    Nowadays this feature seems to have been entirely relegated to machine guns with attached grenade launchers. And then proceeds to only ever give you two grenades, making it barely ever used.

    In a way this is also due to non-real-world weapons going MIA. I'm going to blame CS for starting the trend of having 50 'realistic' weapons, all of which are variants on some kind of pistol or machine gun for gun fetishists to wank over.
    I loved shock rifle duels in the original UT. Don't forget that the rocket launcher had three or four different fire modes. My favorite was definitely 2 pistols held gangsta style. That was really dumb and really fun.

  9. #49
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    A flak cannon, my horse for a flak cannon!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    I don't. Not putting a tooltip in seems kind of lazy now. That's different from the 1800 bajillion pages of lore that came with some games, which was neat.
    No reason why you can't have both. Plus, you can only fit a limited amount of information on a tool-tip. Add too much and it starts to be counter-productive. Plus, tool-tips cant really discuss more complex mechanics that involve several systems.

    Reading is a tried and tested (and self-paced) way of learning new information and ideas. These days, a lot of developers are too lazy to write a good manual, and most gamers are too lazy to read it. Which seems a shame really.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    This would make MMOs actually playable.
    This would make MMOs even more ridiculously easy than they are right now.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  12. #52
    Activated Node Chordian's Avatar
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    Fog of War. I loved "cleaning out" maps in EQ2 some years ago - and then they modernized the map system in a patch to look more like that other MMO. Meh. The latest game i've played that had this was the first Two Worlds (LTTP). The second game also had a hint of it, but it was too subtle to be useful in that manner.

    Jump puzzles in FPS and 3PS. I'm one of probably ten players on this planet that actually liked that a lot. Good thing that Black Mesa delivered, just a shame it relied so much on crouch jumping.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    I miss the belief that expecting players to look things up in a manual is ok.
    I do love manuals, because they give me something to read when I can't play the game, and they can go into real detail about the game mechanics that tooltips can't manage. I always want them to be available in-game though, preferably with lots of links and search functions.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    I miss the belief that expecting players to look things up in a manual is ok.
    Because with high resolution displays it's practical to have tooltips or in-game guides. Back when 640x480 was so high res and screen space was limited it wasn't practical to put a lot of information on screen without it becoming cluttered. Totally different story these days, and it doesn't all have to go into tooltips. I totally agree that I'd love to return to the golden age of manuals but with the resources we have at our disposal today if your game isn't telling you the basics there's something wrong with your UI. Case in point: Dwarf Fortress, which is complex primarily because the documentation is abysmal and there's no in-game assistance to explain anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    No reason why you can't have both. Plus, you can only fit a limited amount of information on a tool-tip. Add too much and it starts to be counter-productive. Plus, tool-tips cant really discuss more complex mechanics that involve several systems.
    As others have said Mass Effect had a codex, and Civilization V had its Civlopedia as well as the more basic tooltips. You don't have to cram everything into a tooltip, that's not the point of them. The point of a tooltip is to say "This is called Eat Food. It will eat the current item and restore +5 Obesity."

    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    Reading is a tried and tested (and self-paced) way of learning new information and ideas. These days, a lot of developers are too lazy to write a good manual, and most gamers are too lazy to read it. Which seems a shame really.
    I disagree. If gamers were too lazy to read things that actually need a manual, why do we have so many wikis where people are effectively collaborating on their own resources that go way beyond manuals? Most manuals for the action-shooty games went like this: "MS DOS installation instructions, enemy and weapon descriptions which were fun but not useful, control scheme, call the hint line kids because phone bills are fun!"

    The games that relied on having a manual to knock a man out were always niche titles and still are. Not everyone is playing Ka-50 because they don't have the desire or time to read through the manual. I love flight sims but I do enough reading without learning procedural switch flipping from a 600 page manual which is longer than my clinical practice guides.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The games that relied on having a manual to knock a man out were always niche titles and still are. Not everyone is playing Ka-50 because they don't have the desire or time to read through the manual. I love flight sims but I do enough reading without learning procedural switch flipping from a 600 page manual which is longer than my clinical practice guides.
    Games and sims are different things though. Edit: Just saw your paragraph before that too; I think there's a difference between what you'd find on a wiki and what you'd find in a manual. Case in point, earlier on I decided to find out precisely what this Evil Smasher glitch in Borderlands 2 is, the manual wouldn't have told me that. You go to a wiki to find stuff the game isn't telling you, and that sort of stuff is rarely related to the basic playing of the game. Advanced tactics in Killing Floor yes, how to sell weapons to the trader not so much. I'm not even sure if I'm disagreeing with you now though or what.

    I also really miss alt-fire. I remember in the old days, when games used to have precisely 10 weapons and would dole them out level-by-level, the anticipation I used to feel about the next weapon. What would it be? But more importantly, what would the secondary fire mode be? I only played maybe an hour of Unreal Tournament something in my younger days (I was more about Quake really), but that rifle they used in the instagib mode, I loved that! Nowadays you're lucky if you can even change the rate of fire. I actually really enjoyed Rage for this exact reason, but it really screwed me over right at the end. I can't remember exactly what it was but a new rocket launcher ammo type started appearing, and I thought 'ooh, I bet there's a really good reason for that, I better save them for the final boss'. I never did actually fire one, and that saddens me to this very day.
    Last edited by neema_t; 21-01-2013 at 01:36 AM.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neema_t View Post
    Games and sims are different things though.
    They're sold in the same section of the store, and rulesets based on playability and rulesets based on simulation are two ends of a sliding scale anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by neema_t View Post
    I also really miss alt-fire.
    Alt-fire still exists.
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  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    But every MMO ever.
    Also TF2, but I guess that counts as old at this point.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neema_t View Post
    Games and sims are different things though. Edit: Just saw your paragraph before that too; I think there's a difference between what you'd find on a wiki and what you'd find in a manual. Case in point, earlier on I decided to find out precisely what this Evil Smasher glitch in Borderlands 2 is, the manual wouldn't have told me that. You go to a wiki to find stuff the game isn't telling you, and that sort of stuff is rarely related to the basic playing of the game. Advanced tactics in Killing Floor yes, how to sell weapons to the trader not so much. I'm not even sure if I'm disagreeing with you now though or what.
    True that games and sims are different, but as Nalano points out they do cross over no matter how much the simmers want to distance themselves from the "mere toys that are games" (their words... probably, I'm sure I've seen it tossed around on avsim). It's entirely possible to include enough information in the game itself to get people started. The idea of a manual being entirely mandatory died for a good reason - games were limited by what they could display at runtime, either due to memory or resolution constraints, and that isn't a problem anymore. There's no reason why the basics can't be included. True: sims inherently rely on a manual more than most games today (which probably don't need manuals if they've got a decent in-game system) due to their complexity. But by the same token the fact that someone doesn't want to read through 600 pages just to play the game (or the sim) isn't a reflection on gamers being stoopid and not wanting to read, just that they don't want to wade through lots of unnecessary text. You can play DCS: A10 with just the Quickstart guide for example, and that could have been made into a decent tutorial quite easily.

    As for wikis - yeah they're not manual replacements, but do you need a manual to know how to buy something from the store in Killing Floor? I was just countering the point that gamers clearly are interested in all of the juicy manual stuff to the point where they write pages and pages of the stuff, so it's not an issue of people just not wanting to read, just that people expect games to explain their basics in the game itself. And in the modern age of gaming, there's no reason why they can't.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Because with high resolution displays it's practical to have tooltips or in-game guides. Back when 640x480 was so high res and screen space was limited it wasn't practical to put a lot of information on screen without it becoming cluttered. Totally different story these days, and it doesn't all have to go into tooltips. I totally agree that I'd love to return to the golden age of manuals but with the resources we have at our disposal today if your game isn't telling you the basics there's something wrong with your UI. Case in point: Dwarf Fortress, which is complex primarily because the documentation is abysmal and there's no in-game assistance to explain anything.
    I love reading well-written manuals, but I love not needing to read manuals even more and I hate poorly-organized manuals more than I hate figuring things out through trial and error. I like the idea of a game teaching you how to play as you play. Not everything can figure out how to use WASD by reading it in a manual unless they prop it up next to the screen and squint at it (in which case the manual might as well be on-screen) ... and anyone who already knows how to use WASD can ignore the prompts (or adjust the tutorial settings, which a lot of games should have). More complicated stuff is also nice to have built into the interface somewhere, especially in strategy games (Civilopedia is a beautiful, beautiful thing). The Arkham games has this nice little guide on how to do the combos built into the menu system (Arkham City did it slightly better), as does Street Fighter (which one of the more complicated control schemes outside of simulations).

    I'd love to have both for games like Street Fighter (so I can prop my character's action card on my desk and glance down at it while I muck around in Training mode), but I'd RATHER have some kind of overlay that lets me cycle through moves and combos and have the instructions sit on the margins of the playing field somewhere right on screen--either way, I prefer the in-system reference manual but it's nice to have a reference that doesn't require pausing the action for simple things like combos and what-not. A lot of games, on that note, used to come with little keyboard layouts printed on the manual. While manuals have become thinner and entirely about interface-navigation when they're even in the box, I find that a lot of games still have one of these. Digital games ought to come standard with a basic PDF manual and keyboard layout card, though. Street Fighter had a free, download-able character guide that had full-page artwork for each character-move guide--I modified it to save ink since I just needed index-card-sized guides, but it's really nice to have those cards while I'm learning a character.

    And in the modern age of gaming, there's no reason why they can't.
    That said, tutorials could do with an industry wide make-over. There are a lot of basic things your typical tutorial does less elegantly than a few minor tweaks could allow for. They've come a long way though, and I certainly remember even a lot of older, manual-bearing games having tutorials that were sufficient if frustrating, boring or otherwise mediocre.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 21-01-2013 at 02:41 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    While I'm at it, I would love to see a really solid 3D fighting system on par with Street Fighter IV and Capcom vs. Marvel -- obviously porting that genre into 3D requires some radically different ideas, though. Lugaru is a nice proof-of-concept for a relatively intricate fighting system that can operate in a not-exactly-arena-fighting setting and be simple enough to function reliably in 3D while also having a pleasantly steep learning curve. The key, though, and the reason this is a separate paragraph, is that I'd love to see the character-driven tactics, the mind-games and the room for growth found in the fighting games mentioned (less crazy with the difficulty of special moves, hopefully, because 3D). This is a bit off topic, though, as arena fighting isn't MIA at all even if the level of detail never really made it to 3D.
    This exists and its brilliant. And it's from the wonderful people at Platinum.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-reigns-review

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