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  1. #1001
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Kerbal Space Program. Who cares if it's amateurish modellers and modders? Minecraft. Oh, and add any off the triple A games already mentioned, like Elder Scrolls. Again. You don't have to support mods. You don't have to block them. Enabling onffline play is only a "hack" if it fits the terms of a hack. Do EA prevent changing of the games files? They do now as they are read only after an update. Do the terms of service prevent changing the games files? Is it illegal to change the content of purchased software on your hard drive in this instance? :)
    I was actually gonna ask about that. Wasn't there a huge debacle over EA basically saying "All mods are bannable offenses"?



    And the issue is what fits in with the aesthetics of the game. If I have a 90 million polygon pistol and a mod adds in "Baby's First Rifle", it is going to look jarring and turn me off. Same with the current trend of "I ripped this model from game X and added it to game Y".

    With art styles like TF2 and the like, this isn't an issue. It is a comparatively "low end" style that is beautiful. So a lot more people can make a lot more pretty stuff without needing to spend years of their lives learning 3ds max or whatever.

    But this is REALLY off topic.
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  2. #1002
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    Um. Why do you care about other people modding their game? Should I care if they wish to change their game? So what if they want cartoons in a photorealism game? I'm not attacking anyone here. I'm truly confused at the out of park balls that are coming in to the conversation. :P

    Ok, if EA say it's a bannable offense, why is there modding support of the game? I'm happy for them to disallow modding or changing of their code in their EULA or service subscription. Have they done this here? What are you defending? Their right to stop people changing their code, or their right to use double speak and both allow and disallow modding at the same time?

    Is a player demonstrating offline play helpful to their server issues at launch, or unhelpful? Does it show the customer to have a better grasp of the game than the publisher? Is it wrong to allow the customer to own their game (offline play through changing a .package) or is it allowed?

    Is it right for the customer to request, insist, offline play to EA? Or consider or apply offline play themselves to the game?
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 14-03-2013 at 09:26 PM.

  3. #1003
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Um. Why do you care about other people modding their game? Should I care if they wish to change their game? So what if they want cartoons in a photorealism game? I'm not attacking anyone here. I'm truly confused at the out of park balls that are coming in to the conversation. :P
    I don't care at all. WHere in the conversation is this being said?

    Ok, if EA say it's a bannable offense, why is there modding support of the game? I'm happy for them to disallow modding or changing of their code in their EULA or service subscription. Have they done this here? What are you defending? Their right to stop people changing their code, or their right to use double speak and both allow and disallow modding at the same time?
    I am not "defending" anything. I, in fact, specifically said I don't care who cracks whatever. I just don't think news sites should be reporting on cracks (or things that sound a LOT like a crack, since this apparently still requires activation although the article I read this morning was vague on that) and especially should not be calling them "mods".
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  4. #1004
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    How exactly have you come up with the word crack, related to that mod?

    You were incapable of justifying the word hack for it, now you went to call it directly a crack. And if you check your posts for any kind or argument, it's just not there.
    You just popped the word and the moral, parental judgement <<should not be calling them "mods">>.
    Just like that, out of the blue.
    Last edited by tadada; 14-03-2013 at 10:31 PM.

  5. #1005
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    From wikipedia:
    Software cracking
    , the modification of software to remove security protection methods
    Always online is a security protection method, no two words about it. Therefore modding the game to work offline is removing this protection and a crack. But it doesn't mean I condemn it.
    pass

  6. #1006
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    Ok.
    Your post has what guntado's didn't. Argument.

    Then let's make another moral judgement.
    Whatever that thing is, it is a good thing.
    Why?
    argument>It helps the customers without damaging anyone or anything.
    You may call it however you want, that doesn't changes what it does and it's moral value.
    It's good that it exists, it's good that journalist talked about it, rising awarenes of it's existance and implications, it is a good thing that every SC customer could have it (hopefully).

    I like good things.
    Last edited by tadada; 14-03-2013 at 10:35 PM.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    From wikipedia:
    [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_cracking"]

    Always online is a security protection method, no two words about it. Therefore modding the game to work offline is removing this protection and a crack. But it doesn't mean I condemn it.
    Ok, so this stops the authentication server request? Or just the "is the game connected, region connection" request? Can it be said to stop the security checks? If people are going to argue the modification is close to a hack, I think that allows some to argue it's close to unreasonable to not allow modding.

    Why is it wrong for RPS to post news when a game or gaming service gets hacked?

  8. #1008
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    The fact that we want to be informed about a game beyond of what the publisher feeds us (and we've seen what that means) and that RPS informs us, somehow worries and unsettles him.

  9. #1009
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Ok.
    Your post has what guntado's didn't. Argument.
    Yes, deepest sympathies for assuming people on a PC gaming board would understand what a crack was...

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Ok, so this stops the authentication server request? Or just the "is the game connected, region connection" request? Can it be said to stop the security checks? If people are going to argue the modification is close to a hack, I think that allows some to argue it's close to unreasonable to not allow modding.

    Why is it wrong for RPS to post news when a game or gaming service gets hacked?
    In the strictest sense of the term, it is a crack in that it is disabling the periodic checks to see if you are connected.
    In practice: It (probably) still requires you to authenticate initially, so it is only a partial crack (the kind of thing that would make the Warez groups release ninety different nfos full of hatespeech and flames at each others :p). So it is still against the TOS/"illegal", but it isn't all that useful beyond the next day or two (assuming EA still hasn't fixed the server load issues).

    And, as i have said so many god damned times by now: At the very least, this is easily interpreted as a crack. Gaming News sites generally shouldn't be reporting on those in great detail as they are illegal (I don't care about ethics, that is your chocie to make). Furthermore, by referring to it as a "mod", all it does is associate modding with piracy. Which won't have good results in the long term.

    Now, if this had revealed an amazing truth about the mechanics of SC5, that would be one thing. But it doesn't. The various articles and reports on how you can play offline for extended periods of time already did that. One might argue the highways thing is "interesting", but even The Sims 1 allowed you to build off your property if you turned on dev mode (I forget if those saved properly though).

    Now, if we ARE going to be having all these reports on warez groups and the like, I expect a hard-hitting investigation of racism and homophobia in Scene Release Groups and a history of why Razor1911 chose that name.
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  10. #1010
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    The whole point isn't to say 'hey you can crack the game, do it!', it's just pointing out that the very basic things that EA/Maxis said about requiring online to run isn't true, which is the entire underlying issue.
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  11. #1011
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    The whole point isn't to say 'hey you can crack the game, do it!', it's just pointing out that the very basic things that EA/Maxis said about requiring online to run isn't true, which is the entire underlying issue.
    Which was already proven by various reports and examination (including kotaku) and the leaked source code.

    That's the thing. It doesn't really bring anything new to the table.
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  12. #1012
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    We knew that the game could run offline without the help of servers for 20 or so minutes, but something would cause it to disconnect after that.

    The fact that you can disable that with a javascript tweak is significant.
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  13. #1013
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    Hey guys, long time lurker on this forum. I'm currently requesting a refund from EA for my digital purchase of Simcity Digital Deluxe edition. I'd be very interested in the feedback and opinions of other gamers in my case.


    info: Your approximate wait time is 34 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 34 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 32 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 28 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 27 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 27 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 22 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 17 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 15 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 9 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 6 minute.
    info: Your approximate wait time is 3 minute.
    info: You are now ready to chat with Wenceslao Jr..




    Wenceslao Jr.: Thank you for contacting EA Help. My name is Wes. May I have your email address that is associated with your account and your first and last name please so I may address you properly.


    you: XXXXXX@gmail.com


    you: My name is XXXXXXX


    Wenceslao Jr.: Thank you, XXXXXX. How may I help you today?


    you: Hello! First let me preface this by saying that I am a great fan of many games that EA have produced(lol); as a look at the games registered under my Origin account should show.


    you: Regretfully, however, I have unfortunately had nothing but problems and disappointment after purchasing Simcity, and wanted to request a refund.


    Wenceslao Jr.: I am sorry that you are requesting for a refund but may I know if it is a download purchase please?


    you: Yes, it was the digital deluxe version.


    Wenceslao Jr.: I see. We understand the frustration you have with the game but our developers are already aware of and is getting a resolution for it as soon as possible. However, we cannot issue refunds for download purchase and refer our customers to this link to better understand that: returns-and-cancellations


    you: I have read and understand your company policies regarding refunds for downloaded purchases; however I do live in the UK and should fall under UK Distance Selling Regulation laws, under which downloadable games are included.


    Wenceslao Jr.: I am sorry sir but we only follow EA policies and we cannot issue a refund for this case.


    you: I do understand you only follow EA policies, but it is my understanding that EA agrees to trade under UK consumer laws when it does business with UK customers. This is not a vague or esoteric small print law in the UK, but rather something that all businesses trading in goods and services online must absolutely follow.


    you: I am in a position where I can site specific sections of the Distance Selling Regulations law (2000) that apply in this case.


    Wenceslao Jr.: I am sorry sir but much as I would to help you, we still cannot issue a refund and would suggest to wait for updates on the issue you may be having with the game. Much as we would like to review those rules that are being implied under the UK standards, we are still complying with what EA had set.


    you: I do understand that you have to operate under EA company policy, but I also insist that the trading laws of the United Kingdom do come first before that. Is it possible that I be transferred to a supervisor, or someone else who is able to help me with my request? As a lifelong fan of EA products I feel disheartened that you can't help me in this matter.


    Wenceslao Jr.: I am sorry sir but even when transferred to a supervisor, the case would still be the same and unfortunately, we do not have a number to call for you to dispute that and it will be more direct: Local: 0870 243 2435 International: +44 870 243 2435. (UK): 9AM-10PM GMT, seven days a week


    Wenceslao Jr.: Would there be anything else I may be able to assist you?


    you: I understand. Before anything else I need to inform you that a) As of this conversation, my request for a refund has been put forward before the 7-day deadline required by UK law, and B) UK Law precedes any terms and conditions or company policy, also C) Since my request has been made within 7 days, EA has one month as of today to offer the refund before I am legally obliged to seek it through other means. Is it possible to receive a confirmation email from your department that contains the details of this conversation for my records, please?


    Wenceslao Jr.: I will send you the email as per request once our conversation is concluded. Would there be anything else I can help you with?


    you: Thank you very much for your help. One more thing, if for some reason I do not receive this email, can you tell me the phone number I should use to contact someone to inquire about it?


    Wenceslao Jr.: The phone number that I have provided for you as mentioned earlier.


    info: Your chat transcript will be sent to xxxxxxx@gmail.com at the end of your chat session.


    you: I'll be very sure to make a note of it then, just in case. Thank you for your time.


    Wenceslao Jr.: You are most welcome. Thank you for your patience and understanding. Please do not hesitate to contact us at EA Help in case you got questions. Have a nice day now.

    The UK law I'm citing is UK Distance Selling Regulations Act (2000), regulations 10 through 13.


    The only hurdle I see is;


    Exceptions to the right to cancel


    13.—(1) Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer will not have the right to cancel the contract by giving notice of cancellation pursuant to regulation 10 in respect of contracts—


    (a)for the supply of services if the supplier has complied with regulation 8(3) and performance of the contract has begun with the consumer’s agreement before the end of the cancellation period applicable under regulation 12;
    (b)for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the supplier;
    (c)for the supply of goods made to the consumer’s specifications or clearly personalised or which by reason of their nature cannot be returned or are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly;
    (d)for the supply of audio or video recordings or computer software if they are unsealed by the consumer

    I'm hoping to argue that either -


    A) That this only applies to products where the product cannot ever be used again by me unsealing/using the product key or some such- In this case, as keys are free to make I'm hoping I can argue that there has been absolutely no loss of value.


    OR


    B) That the purpose behind that particular line would have been so that you can't buy a CD online, open it, burn it, and then return it for a refund while still retaining a copy. But if that is the case, such rationale wouldn't apply to Sim City since the act of unsealing the copy, digital or otherwise, does not give you the ability to pirate it.


    Which in either case is unrelated to my claim for a refund. What do you guys think?

  14. #1014
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I wish you luck with that, but as you said, you might be screwed on the "unsealed by the consumer" aspect as that specific key truly IS forever un-reusable (as you "know" it).
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  15. #1015
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Keep us posted.
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  16. #1016
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    It shoudl be noted that the "banning for refunds" that came up was a misunderstanding by EA when they said "we will not ban you for asking for a refund".

    The rep said they would be banned for using the existing VISA chargeback scheme to chargeback the money spent on the game.

    Chargebacks still end in being banned.

    If you exercise your right as a UK consumer and as a VISA customer EA will ban your Origin account.
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  17. #1017
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    I have no intention of forcing a chargeback. It is one option I can look at if EA can't deal with my refund request within the one month that they have to, however, as they would then be defrauding me.

    I will keep thread updated.

  18. #1018
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    Always online is a security protection method, no two words about it. Therefore modding the game to work offline is removing this protection and a crack. But it doesn't mean I condemn it.
    I can't believe you needed to post that. Seriously, when has the term "crack" ever been in doubt here? Man, some people sure are trying to act like revisionists if they're describing this as anything other than a 'crack'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Chargebacks still end in being banned. If you exercise your right as a UK consumer and as a VISA customer EA will ban your Origin account.
    My understanding is that a chargeback is more a method of last resort, not a front-line option, for use when other avenues have failed. In other words, not because of buyer's remorse or because you can't be bothered dealing with support staff. I can understand EA threatening to ban you from their services if you initiate a chargeback. I don't agree with it, but I can see where they're coming from.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  19. #1019
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I can't be arsed to link to TB's talk on the subject (again...), but let me summarize:

    A Chargeback gets you your money back and penalizes the company you gave it to. That much is "good"
    It also marks that company as bad/a scammer in the eys of the bank. That may be "good"
    People, in general, are selfish assholes. Ergo, every single DD service (hell, pretty much every single company) on the planet have a policy of "You issue a chargeback, we never do business with you again".

    So, before requesting one, ask yourself the following:
    Is this truly a scam?
    Are you willing to blacklist yourself from that company (and any partners)? If they truly are scammers, this should be a no-brainer.
    Is it worth the hassle?


    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I can't believe you needed to post that. Seriously, when has the term "crack" ever been in doubt here? Man, some people sure are trying to act like revisionists if they're describing this as anything other than a 'crack'.
    I think the problem is that people feel the need to justify every single thing they do, so they make up excuses. It is just hilarious to see it being done for something that really is quite straightforward.
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  20. #1020
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Is this truly a scam?
    And now watch as tadada or someone comes in and attempts to say that SimCity was a scam.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

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