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  1. #1021
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    Soldant, don't ruin the plot!

  2. #1022
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    Sorry to disappoint you, soldant, but I rather point to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I wish you luck with that, but as you said, you might be screwed on the "unsealed by the consumer" aspect as that specific key truly IS forever un-reusable (as you "know" it).
    A code that is only instrumental to the sale, like a receipt would be in real life.
    But, being only a very small sum of digital info, that code could be almost infinitely and instantaneously produced with next to zero costs (.00000000000something of a cent/code).
    The law obviously refers to a real packaged product, it implies real loss of value of the actual product.
    Nothing even remotely related to that code, a virtual receipt (not packaging).

    It's only a supposition, "might be", correct.
    Let's just say that: if people like you are employed in gaming customer support, that makes hackers/crackers look like angels in disguise.
    Free of any sin...
    In comparison, of course :)

  3. #1023
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Let's just say that: if people like you are employed in gaming customer support, that makes hackers/crackers look like angels in disguise.
    Free of any sin...
    In comparison, of course :)
    I swear, I try so hard to figure out what the hell you're on about, but I never quite manage to figure it out. I don't even understand how you've decided I'm an enemy of consumers because I suggested that a chargeback as a front line solution to "I don't like this game" is poor policy, or because I suggested that Maxis share blame with EA since they're the actual developers (yes, Maxis are part of EA, but Maxis are the dev team, twist it as much as you like but their name's still on it).
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  4. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I swear, I try so hard to figure out what the hell you're on about, but I never quite manage to figure it out. I don't even understand how you've decided I'm an enemy of consumers because I suggested that a chargeback as a front line solution to "I don't like this game" is poor policy, or because I suggested that Maxis share blame with EA since they're the actual developers (yes, Maxis are part of EA, but Maxis are the dev team, twist it as much as you like but their name's still on it).
    I was talking and refering to gundato ?

    It's your alt account ?

    Nice.

  5. #1025
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    tadada, welcome to the board. now please stop assuming that 2 of the "elder" forumgoers are working against you and chill out. nobody works for EA here. not a single one. so if you cant form an opinion as well as answer to another ones', please refrain from making any posts.

    also note: you were adressing soldant. its in the first line of your post. dont pull the OMG MY ENGRISH IS BDA card, they never work.

    continue on, but if this goes on exactly like before for all of you, Im going to have to defer you to the moderated thread and this one wont work anymore.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 15-03-2013 at 06:26 AM.
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  6. #1026
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    I was talking and refering to gundato ?

    It's your alt account ?

    Nice.
    If you were referring to Gundato, don't address me in the top of the post? I assumed the quote was demonstrating something (what exactly I'm still not certain) and that you then went on to declare me an enemy of consumers or something. If you were talking to Gundato then I have absolutely no relevance to the post... so why mention me?
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  7. #1027
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakosi View Post
    I'm hoping to argue that either -

    A) That this only applies to products where the product cannot ever be used again by me unsealing/using the product key or some such- In this case, as keys are free to make I'm hoping I can argue that there has been absolutely no loss of value.

    OR

    B) That the purpose behind that particular line would have been so that you can't buy a CD online, open it, burn it, and then return it for a refund while still retaining a copy. But if that is the case, such rationale wouldn't apply to Sim City since the act of unsealing the copy, digital or otherwise, does not give you the ability to pirate it.

    Which in either case is unrelated to my claim for a refund. What do you guys think?
    EA will counter with this from their Terms of Sale:

    If you reside in the European Union and you purchase a product or service on one of our Websites, you have the right to withdraw from your purchase within fourteen calendar days, commencing on the day after the date of purchase (the "Cooling Off Period"). If you reside in countries other than Germany you will lose your right of withdrawal if you start downloading your product, or if you remove or unseal the shrink-wrap packaging from your physical product, or if the performance of our services has begun, before the end of the Cooling Off Period.
    I don't know enough about the ins and outs of what law trumps what contract but I would assume that EA legal team do. Keep in mind that if you threaten them with legal action the CS team will ask you to have your solicitor contact EA and won't deal with you any more because they can't have unqualified support staff responding in writing to legal issues. I would say your best is to keep asking to be escalated and make it very clear at each stage that you know the law and that you won't be fobbed off by someone who doesn't.
    Last edited by Dubbill; 15-03-2013 at 08:10 AM. Reason: formatting
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  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbill View Post
    EA will counter with this from their Terms of Sale:


    I don't know enough about the ins and outs of what law trumps what contract but I would assume that EA legal team do. Keep in mind that if you threaten them with legal action the CS team will ask you to have your solicitor contact EA and won't deal with you any more because they can't have unqualified support staff responding in writing to legal issues. I would say your best is to keep asking to be escalated and make it very clear at each stage that you know the law and that you won't be fobbed off by someone who doesn't.
    All consumer laws in your own country always trump any terms of service/sale/whatever. This is true for any business trading in any goods/services.

    EA have neglected to mention UK regulations in their Terms of Sale, but that's their problem, because regardless of if they mention them they still count for everything.

  9. #1029
    Soooo.... sorry to interrupt but Amazon just emailed me to let me know that the SimCity Paris pack is now available for just £7.99, which I might be interested in as I previously bought SimCity 4.

    So I guess this is an intimation of the DLC pricing for SimCity. Seems pretty steep to me but then I am not hugely surprised.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I can't be arsed to link to TB's talk on the subject (again...), but let me summarize:

    A Chargeback gets you your money back and penalizes the company you gave it to. That much is "good"
    It also marks that company as bad/a scammer in the eys of the bank. That may be "good"
    People, in general, are selfish assholes. Ergo, every single DD service (hell, pretty much every single company) on the planet have a policy of "You issue a chargeback, we never do business with you again".

    So, before requesting one, ask yourself the following:
    Is this truly a scam?
    Are you willing to blacklist yourself from that company (and any partners)? If they truly are scammers, this should be a no-brainer.
    Is it worth the hassle?



    I think the problem is that people feel the need to justify every single thing they do, so they make up excuses. It is just hilarious to see it being done for something that really is quite straightforward.
    [edit] Ah sorry, do you mean "Direct Download service"? Yes, they can blacklist you. In this case. It's your right as a customer to make that decision. Sorry, I thought you meant "Direct Debit", as we are talking about both payments and games. I hate abbreviations, they don't help the conversation. :P

    Have you read the terms of payment contracts? I suggest you do. It is in the customers power and their right to cancel for any reason. It is an arrangement of payment for convenience not for law. If the customer cancels it is the both the sellers and the buyers responsibility to set up a different payment scheme or cancel their product or service (their choice, so it's not all one way rights here, it's shared).

    For credit card cancellations, yes you want to think seriously about it. Yes EA has every right to ban your Origin games for cancellation though. Why? It's a service, not ownership (at least in law, I'm not arguing about anything else here, just pointing out what each sides rights are in law).

    Here you can read up on it. http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback#how
    This includes "quality" of the product not being as described. If EA wish to keep selling with Visa it is in EAs contract with VISA to not mislead or allow misunderstandings to appear with their customers. If this is an unfair T&C in the EULA of the VISA contract and software and hardware service provided, then that is between EA and VISA, not the customers. Oh, perhaps EA should ask for their money back under their consumer rights because VISA was not honest when selling their credit card facility to them? Sound familiar?

    The funny thing is, you can only do this for purchases over $/£100. So I don't even think it applies in this instance. It's another pointless argument avoiding the real problems.
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 15-03-2013 at 11:26 AM.

  11. #1031
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    About the refund, have you contacted the Citzens Advice Bureau http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

    Their job is to give advice and help you get with this sort of stuff. I don't know if they can help, but its worth the free chat. They may be able to steer you in the right direction.

  12. #1032
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    [edit] Ah sorry, do you mean "Direct Download service"? Yes, they can blacklist you. In this case. It's your right as a customer to make that decision. Sorry, I thought you meant "Direct Debit", as we are talking about both payments and games. I hate abbreviations, they don't help the conversation. :P.
    I figured it would be pretty obvious that it was DD with respect to "Digital distribution"/"Direct Download"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
    About the refund, have you contacted the Citzens Advice Bureau http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

    Their job is to give advice and help you get with this sort of stuff. I don't know if they can help, but its worth the free chat. They may be able to steer you in the right direction.
    It definitely can't hurt, but like dubbil said, be very wary of what you say to EA's customer support so as not to escalate things beyond what they can actually help you with.
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  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    It definitely can't hurt, but like dubbil said, be very wary of what you say to EA's customer support so as not to escalate things beyond what they can actually help you with.
    Don't mention it to EA, but the citzens advice people aren't lawyers. They are government people to advise you on your rights, they can usually tell you the right way about getting a refund. As in don't take advice from random people from around the world on a forum :P

  14. #1034
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    Yep. I totally agree. It's just amazing though how people can defend EA and suggest a customer has no right to request a working product or the provision of the service advertised. Is EA delivering either in this instance? Who decides? EA, the customer? Or someone posting on a forum?

    I would assume it's the customer who decides.

  15. #1035
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Yep. I totally agree. It's just amazing though how people can defend EA and suggest a customer has no right to request a working product or the provision of the service advertised. Is EA delivering either in this instance? Who decides? EA, the customer? Or someone posting on a forum?

    I would assume it's the customer who decides.
    The thing is though: The product works. LOTS of people are playing it. There was the first week/week and a half where there were issues, but even then it was playable (if you managed to get a slot on the authentication servers).

    So yes, the customer has every right to request a working product. And they have it. And that makes the "I want a refund" a lot harder since it falls into the category of "Should I get a refund for something I didn't like?" which is a much murkier area.

    Like I said, I hope the guy gets a refund. But EA technically delivered the product and it looks like the EA TOS already covers this AND the specified european law may not apply due to the "consumed electronics" aspect.
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  16. #1036
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Frankly, I'm amazed at the endurance of this argument. We're going on a week here, and people are basically just saying the same things at (not to!) each other.

  17. #1037
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    Frankly, I'm amazed at the endurance of this argument. We're going on a week here, and people are basically just saying the same things at (not to!) each other.
    Like John said, it's very Orwellian.
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  18. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    Frankly, I'm amazed at the endurance of this argument. We're going on a week here, and people are basically just saying the same things at (not to!) each other.
    I give it another week before it goes quiet, then about three more until it gets brought back up again when EA announce something about the game.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  19. #1039
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    Never mind. If some wish to ask for a refund, they can. If they did not get a service delivered, then they will take that further. It will make an impression of the company to the customers.

    There is a reason Valve and others (Amazon etc) offer a quick refund and remove a product from the shelves when there is a complaint. There is a real reason why their customers come back after mistakes. Failing to offer such options and additional service when a paying customer views (does not need to be real) their product as defective, has a bad effect on your company. So it's not defensible. Sales and results will show this.
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 15-03-2013 at 06:52 PM.

  20. #1040
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Never mind. If some wish to ask for a refund, they can. If they did not get a service delivered, then they will take that further. It will make an impression of the company to the customers.

    There is a reason Valve and others (Amazon etc) offer a quick refund and remove a product from the shelves when there is a complaint. There is a real reason why their customers come back after mistakes. Failing to offer such options and additional service when a paying customer views (does not need to be real) their product as defective, has a bad effect on your company. So it's not defensible. Sales and results will show this.
    ...
    Since when did Valve give refunds? The only times they have ever really done it have been when there were massive scandals AND an argument of "Fraud" would be applicable. One can argue that "fraud" can be claimed in this, but it would be a stretch.

    And removing stuff from shelves? Valve will sell (just about) anything, regardless of if it works (a reason to always be wary of buying an old game on Steam). And I recall reading a bunch of articles on some rape-simulator Amazon sold for the longest time.

    And Amazon's policy on returns (at least, for software) generally involves you paying for your own shipping AND potentially a restocking fee. They are much more lenient on exchanges, but that is generally because the box was missing something/defective.
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