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  1. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by X_kot View Post
    *in b4 thread closure*
    Why?! We had a poster "acting like" it was astroturfing EA and the game in discussion. So what ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing


    If astroturfing is reason enough to close a thread then any publisher (EA, in this case) can close any thread here, just because it doesn't likes what we post.
    Doesn't fit with RPS purpose very well...

    edit: and there, I said it.
    Someone behaves like an astroturfer would, and we don't know why. :)
    Last edited by tadada; 16-03-2013 at 05:27 AM.

  2. #1062
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no, being an arse to other forum members is however not something thats tolerated here.

    everything is fine if you dont attack people personally.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  3. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    no, being an arse to other forum members is however not something thats tolerated here.

    everything is fine if you dont attack people personally.
    Are there even mods here? They seem pretty tolerant.

  4. #1064
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    Are there even mods here? They seem pretty tolerant.
    Well, QuantaCat thinks​ he's a mod.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  5. #1065
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    Are there even mods here? They seem pretty tolerant.
    Rossignol is your god. There are also fearsome disintegration nodes that lurk in the dark corners waiting to grab the unsuspecting and murder them in their sleep.

    Flee now, before their hideous gaze is turned on you!
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  6. #1066
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    nalano, love.

    what did you think of the actual game, aside from the online crap? you're a big sc4 fan.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  7. #1067
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    The English Eurogamer review points out flaws beyond the often discussed DRM and online situation, and rewards it a 4/10, saying: "I can handle the graphical bugs - those overlapping buildings, the misshaped roads, the fire fighters who have chosen to stand on the station roof and spend their time endlessly vibrating. What I can't handle is the knowledge that things aren't working properly, that whatever success I've made is a sham, the result of misshapen game mechanics producing outcomes that are frequently contradictory or even nonsense. The population numbers make no sense and sometimes fall or rocket for no apparent reason; I'm not really sure where it is my money comes from; I never need to touch my tax rate."

    Which one commentator summed up nicely with: "'Instead, just play Simcity 4'/10".

    This situation about the supposedly fake numbers and impenetrable calculations that are said to take place in the background reminds me somewhat of the F1 2010 game by Codemasters. Shortly after release, it was revealed by players that the actual cars on track were just driving standard loops and the 'times' they drove were all randomly generated by a script, amongst other trickery.
    Last edited by Tritagonist; 16-03-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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  8. #1068
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    I wish the EA representatives would stop to try to "modify the truth". Going with the truth would have worked as well, and tryiing to meet customers in the middle.

    The game is not bad, but have problems. I think a few patches can fix some of them, and have a more stable simulation.

  9. #1069
    Okay, so I did get to watch the game played because one of my stupid friends bought it. It's pretty and she didn't even notice the simulation problems until I pointed them out. A bit of zooming in and watching the stupid is something you can't just undo, so she's not going to be playing it again, heh.

    I'm serious when I say it's pretty though, if I didn't know about the underlying issues I'd be tempted to buy it, it hides its shortcomings well. Oh and the cities are very tiny, I have to travel more than 2 kilometers to go to class and I live right at the heart of the city. The factories being so close must be an American thing. Also the empty space.
    Last edited by Caddybear; 16-03-2013 at 10:51 AM.

  10. #1070
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caddybear View Post
    Okay, so I did get to watch the game played because one of my stupid friends bought it. It's pretty and she didn't even notice the simulation problems until I pointed them out. A bit of zooming in and watching the stupid is something you can't just undo, so she's not going to be playing it again, heh.
    I was playing quite happily - in between login timeouts and login queues - and assuming that all the problems with traffic, supply chains and materials not arriving at great works were down to me doing it rong. I was very interested to learn more, get better and improve each new city. Now I know the problems are rooted in fundamental AI and pathing issues I've completely lost interest. I will go back to it if they can sort it all out and allow me to build a great city without 80% of the battle being against poor design.
    Last edited by Dubbill; 16-03-2013 at 01:06 PM.
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  11. #1071
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    I'd be watching the game and waiting for a sale. Now I'm waiting for a sale and for confirmation that the path finding and AI issues are resolved, because at the moment they're pretty game breaking and force you to plan your city around completely unreasonable behavior.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  12. #1072
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    "I would still (from a legal perspective) decline it becuase things still fell into the "rough launch" category (as in, there is precedent that by the time all the credit card charges and refunds clear, the game will be working), but there was a pretty good argument."
    Thanks Gundato. But as said, it's not your call. Most people expect a service to be there on purchase/agreed dates. It's the customers and the sellers who decide. Ever bought an expensive engineering tool and it not work? Would you expect a refund/replacement or be happy with "It's a service, we offer repairs, we will send it to China, 2 weeks turnaround, thanks for the cash". Or would you be tempted to go to a different supplier?

    With more PR releases from EA and Maxis. It's clear they never intend to change. :(

    As to the game, I see very little "game" in there. It's a wonderful artistic "box". But I see no gameplay beyond a cow clicker. Oh, cowclickers can be fun. But I have neither the wallet size for this one, and there are much better ones out there (Tropico 4, Endless Space, etc).

    This is like the Settlers Kings of Heritage to the series. A very lackluster, missing the point entirely of the "game", release.
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 16-03-2013 at 01:25 PM.

  13. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caddybear View Post
    I'm serious when I say it's pretty though, if I didn't know about the underlying issues I'd be tempted to buy it, it hides its shortcomings well. Oh and the cities are very tiny, I have to travel more than 2 kilometers to go to class and I live right at the heart of the city. The factories being so close must be an American thing. Also the empty space.
    I was thinking about that "it's an American thing" a lot (currently playing SC4 and reading about SC ).
    All SC titles (as all city builders for that matter) behave like a suburb developer simulator. But let's stick to SC, our subject.

    What is a sburb?

    It's a big patch of land which an entrepreneur gets and develops to sell it piece by piece.
    In order to sell by piece what he got by the bunch the entrepreneur must split the big original surface into little pieces accordingly to a functional scheme.
    What functional scheme is that?

    In order for the little lots to be appealing they must be an opportunity to fulfill a city function that the central city can't any more, or does it too expensive. Usually that function is habitation, but can be business just as well. Never industrial, not in the real world, simply because industry can't pay as well as individual home owners wanna-be / square meter.

    Therefore the functional scheme is that of little units of habitation (houses) or Business center, for the other function the city might suck at.

    Once the entrepreneur splits correctly the land he must add streets and utilities, according to the unit's purpose.
    Why does it do it, and not let the unit buyers to? Because it's more appealing to have the problem solved, in one move.
    I't also cheaper. The added cost will reflect in the unit's price.

    And there you have it: city building games.
    Why an American thing ? They invented it.
    The europeans never accepted easily to go out of towns to live and work.
    Not untill the car culture appeared and the cardboard insta-houses, which both were famously first developed, on a large scale, in America.
    The americans had all the ingredients to start it and they did it, starting the post-modernism in urban planing.

    SC, the current game, is an suburb-developing sim. Not city.
    A city presumes history, presumes streets that were appropriate once (for how the city functions were satisfied awhile back) but aren't anymore, therefore the struggle to adapt old streets to modern use.
    A city presumes evolution on many many levels and fields, not only density and function.

    By the way, americans did it so well that now (as someone else mentioned it here) the suburbs externalized so many city functions that the urban area doesn't need a city anymore.
    That's why petrol price is so important : in order to continue to function, to interact, the petrol driven car is crucial.
    You can't live there and do anything without one.

    The only famous city (in America) that actually functions as one is, of course,NY Manhattan. (and possibly Seattle)
    It has the necessary density to bring all town functions together and not need a car to use it.

    The rest of the continent is just a urban sprawl. Use google earth: despite the surface being continuously covered you can distinguish the distinct suburbs by street and unit characteristics.
    Each entrepreneur resolved it differently, till a point. It's like a signature, a thumbprint, of each.
    Between them, uniting, the highways.

    SC is an American suburb developing simulation.
    (and this is a wall of text, I started posting here with one, seems like I end it the same)

  14. #1074
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    In the UK your a city if you have a Cathedral. It's as simple as that. Would make this game much simpler to "simulate".

    Is there a cathedral? If no, send player request "build a Cathedral", if yes, send player "You win".

    ;)

    PS, this looks good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom

  15. #1075
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    Partially true. :)
    Yes the cathedral is the "only if" condition, but not because of the cathedral, but because of the small plaza in front of it.
    That plaza is, actually, the core, the birth place of a town.

    In european towns the same plaza is bordered by the townhall, with the famous clock tower each town must have. :D, and by the richest persons's buildings throughout town's history.

    All bordering an empty space: the plaza. The ultimate interaction place is an empty space, a void, in which anything could happen. :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X135rOfEIg
    Last edited by tadada; 16-03-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  16. #1076
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    In the UK your a city if you have a Cathedral. It's as simple as that.
    Guildford has a cathedral. It's not a city.

    Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_st...United_Kingdom
    Last edited by Dubbill; 16-03-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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  17. #1077
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    In order for the little lots to be appealing they must be an opportunity to fulfill a city function that the central city can't any more, or does it too expensive. Usually that function is habitation, but can be business just as well. Never industrial, not in the real world, simply because industry can't pay as well as individual home owners wanna-be / square meter.
    Bedroom Community
    Office Park
    Industrial Park

    All three exist as suburban entities: Residential, Commercial and Industrial.

    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    The only famous city (in America) that actually functions as one is, of course,NY Manhattan. (and possibly Seattle)
    New York City is of course unique in America, but give credit where it is due: Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia are all functioning cities as we understand them. I would not typify Seattle among that bunch because Seattle, like Houston or St Louis or Columbus, empties the fuck out after 5pm.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  18. #1078
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I would not typify Seattle among that bunch because Seattle, like Houston or St Louis or Columbus, empties the fuck out after 5pm.
    That's unfortunate. I was vaguely considering Seattle as a future option.

    Seriously, the lack of walkable cities with affordable housing is *the* reason I fucked off to Germany immediately after I got my undergrad degree. Even the rural areas here have better access to public transit and shops than the suburbs of New York.

    The US is a mess of urban sprawl, disastrous for the environment and quality of life. I guess self-driving cars will eventually make that a slightly less miserable experience, at least for rich people. Because there's very little chance of the total redevelopment of urban areas.

  19. #1079
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Its a pretty safe bet to say that there are essentially no mods and that the most anyone can ever fear is a thread closure

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    "I would still (from a legal perspective) decline it becuase things still fell into the "rough launch" category (as in, there is precedent that by the time all the credit card charges and refunds clear, the game will be working), but there was a pretty good argument."
    Thanks Gundato. But as said, it's not your call. Most people expect a service to be there on purchase/agreed dates. It's the customers and the sellers who decide. Ever bought an expensive engineering tool and it not work? Would you expect a refund/replacement or be happy with "It's a service, we offer repairs, we will send it to China, 2 weeks turnaround, thanks for the cash". Or would you be tempted to go to a different supplier?
    I think it gets into a very grey area. Yes, if you just take that specific week you fully deserve a refund. But lots of services have unexpected outages. When the power goes out because of a storm, I don't expect a refund for a fraction of my bill. When Bioware did maintenance on The Old Republic, I didn't expect to get a refund even though I could play the game.

    And even if we DO argue that a partial refund should occur due to interrupted service: How do you determine the fraction? We essentially have lifelong subscriptions for a flat fee of 50-70 dollars. So any refund would round down to zero.

    If there is a legal precedent for giving a refund due to launch troubles, that can only hurt the industry. Yes, the studios that tend to half-ass launches will be hurt, but what about the ones who get screwed over because of a driver update or didn't have enough money to test on every possible configuration? When they need the money most (support and the like), it will be ripped out of their grubby paws. The best we can hope for in a situation like that is for PC gaming to actually die (too expensive to develop for) and consoles to be the only choices. And that is bad.
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  20. #1080
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    The US is a mess of urban sprawl, disastrous for the environment and quality of life.
    This is why I studied city planning in undergrad. Basically, to take New York, turn it into a stamp, and stamp that motherfucker on as many places as possible.

    As for urban sprawl, it took 50 years to get to that point. It'll take 50 years to reverse it. We just have to start.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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