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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbill View Post
    Guildford has a cathedral. It's not a city.

    Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_st...United_Kingdom
    The cathedral and square are the seed. You need water and earth too.
    You need a reason to grow, commerce, industry, tourism or whatever.
    Guildford missed some of those other ingredients or all of them.
    Maybe you can tell us what.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post

    Industrial Park

    All three exist as suburban entities: Residential, Commercial and Industrial.
    Industrial zone:
    It's the same mechanism but I have reservations about it.
    Usually the initial owner of this land (local authority or central government), appoints an independent entity to manage it, but does not sell it. It's regarded as "strategic objective" by the government.

    Your example contradicts me and, yes, an industrial park like that is "a suburb", but much more often the industrial zones are centrally controlled, the free enterprise intervenes at a smaller scale, inside it.

    You may say that that's the case with the other zones too, so where's the difference?
    My ignorance in this case keeps me from pointing the difference.
    I know it's something but I can't put my finger on it.
    Till I do you're right.

    How about the mining industry ?
    The mechanism is the same too, but you can't call that an urban zone.
    Also the big infrastructure, big power plants or hundreds of hectares of water treatment plants.
    Not exactly urban, not exactly suburbs.

    Edit: I think it's a matter of local autonomy and stage of capitalism issue.
    Or I just stumble in some game definitions without reason.






    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    New York City is of course unique in America, but give credit where it is due: Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia are all functioning cities as we understand them. I would not typify Seattle among that bunch because Seattle, like Houston or St Louis or Columbus, empties the fuck out after 5pm.
    I only knew the big and obvious example, again I hit my ignorance wall about details regarding that part of the world. And I'm only happy to learn more. :)
    Last edited by tadada; 16-03-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #1082
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    The issue, I believe, is with your definition, Tadada. Suburbs are developments within a city's catchment area that aren't within the city proper. Who owns and parcels them out is immaterial.

    Suburban development is done mainly to escape the high real estate costs of the city and the high taxes within municipal jurisdiction. Suburban sprawl is low-density suburban development due to lack of central planning. The reason we have so much suburban sprawl is because of a national focus and federal subsidy of the car industry and homeownership. The reason central planning has not successfully curtailed sprawl until the 1970s is, to close this loop, because suburban development is done mainly to escape the jurisdiction of municipal governments, and townships outside of cities do not have the political clout or will to enforce city policies: They gain at the cities' expense.

    Most European and Asian cities have solved this issue implicitly by either having city borders generously defined by state governments, or simply allowing cities to annex their suburbs - essentially making it near impossible for suburban development to escape the jurisdiction of the city, and thus enforcing central planning and reducing sprawl.

    To illustrate both the point of annexation and catchment, New York City proper's population is a little over 8 million people. New York City's catchment - ie: where all the commuters come from, synonymous with the Tri-State Area - is some 22 million people. Were New York City's catchment and its borders the same thing, New York City would border Philadelphia, and all of the state of New Jersey would either be part of New York City or Philadelphia. Trenton would be a neighborhood of Philadelphia and Newark would be a district of New York City.

    New York City was synonymous with Manhattan (and the Bronx) for a while, until it annexed the neighboring city of Brooklyn (itself an amalgam of several towns) and the many previously independent townships of Queens County to become the City of Greater New York. What were suburbs then became city, under one jurisdiction. Should New York today have the same control of its suburbs as, say, Paris or Shanghai do, those annexations should have continued on to envelop most of what we consider the Tri-State Area, resulting in a far different development pattern.
    Last edited by Nalano; 16-03-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    This is why I studied city planning in undergrad. Basically, to take New York, turn it into a stamp, and stamp that motherfucker on as many places as possible.

    As for urban sprawl, it took 50 years to get to that point. It'll take 50 years to reverse it. We just have to start.
    Have you started? :D
    I know the intellectual effort is there, but you have to beat the economical mechanisms first.
    Basically you have to make gas more expensive, to put it bare down to basics. :D
    Without that the house in the suburb will be a better option, and if that's true...

    Manhattan had a bonus constraint: water.
    You had no where to go, even if you had money to.

    Can you stamp it in the middle of the open field, where the desirability curve decreases with the distance and then grows again?

    Edit: you already answered in the post above.
    Last edited by tadada; 16-03-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  4. #1084
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Have you started? :D
    City planners are not political powers. They work at the behest of political powers. Baron Haussmann's power was Napoleon III. Robert Moses' power was Fiorello LaGuardia. For there to be a way, there must be a will. Otherwise all you get is a lot of shelved blueprints.

    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Manhattan had a bonus constraint: water.
    New York and Hong Kong built to the sky because of physical contraints in real estate, but you do not have to build to the sky to develop a cohesive, walkable city. Paris and London are both cohesive, walkable cities and their height limits are strictly enforced in the cities proper.

    You do not even need towers to have densely populated cities. New York's peak population density was because of six-story tenements, not forty-story apartment blocks. The top cities by population density generally do not have skylines to speak of, nor are they necessarily bound by impassable geographical limitations.
    Last edited by Nalano; 16-03-2013 at 05:35 PM.
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  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbill View Post
    Guildford has a cathedral. It's not a city.

    Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_st...United_Kingdom
    Historically. Yes (used the wiki to make sure). But "whoosh". ;)

    So it means anything can effectively be called a "city". In the past, it may have been settlements that were bigger than a town. With a "town" just being a few houses. So it would not need to be very big for a city. "SimCity 500BC" could be a gap in the market. :)

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Historically. Yes (used the wiki to make sure). But "whoosh". ;)

    So it means anything can effectively be called a "city". In the past, it may have been settlements that were bigger than a town. With a "town" just being a few houses. So it would not need to be very big for a city. "SimCity 500BC" could be a gap in the market. :)
    Technically the definition of "cities" as contrasted from "towns" was never codified by population. Cities are usually defined by having municipal governments or state charters. Cities tend to be larger than towns (although, due to suburban development, some towns can get pretty damn large).

    Of course, the colloquial definition is what we're discussing and tend to assume of cities: Large settlements, emphasis on large​.
    Last edited by Nalano; 16-03-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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  7. #1087
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    Point being, EA, if they had any brains by this point, could actually set some "rules" and the customers could accept them. It's the half truths that kills it. They can set the size of the city any size they want. But they felt the need to "fudge" the population numbers?

  8. #1088
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    BTW, I was thinking about a different example (of stamping master plans).

    A very particular one.
    It started to appear as "airport cities", facilities built around airports with all the facilities to habitate (hotels) and work (offices, conference centers) for periods between 1-2days to 1-2 weeks.

    Now the idea has grown into something called corporate towns, or "Urban Free Economic Zone" (free as in "we, the developers and owners of the town, we don't pay taxes much" :D) with partial permanent residences.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7482146.stm

    I remember it because of this image describing it:
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 03:38 AM.

  9. #1089
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    1.
    EA and Maxis are not two separate entities, they are one. A corporation. Every corporation has subsidiaries, but that's why they are a corporations: subsidiaries act together, like being one.
    When I say EA I refer to everything it contains, Maxis included.
    And u could not, in good faith, say that Maxis, on his own, could devise such a screw up game, not after SC4.
    I think that's what people seem to be forgetting, and or avoiding, whatever... Either way, Maxis is not a independent entity and is a internally owned component. It's business model is EA's business model, it's corporate decision making processes are that of EA, and vice-versa. Maxis is just a titled brand they can slap on cover art of a product.

    Point being, attempting to differentiate between them is pointless. They're the same entity.

  10. #1090
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    Nowadays the studios seem to be names put on the desk in the office of the big publisher. The "real" studios seem to have gone to kickstarter. (Not that that is any better of it's self) :P

    Learning (as I've not played) that the region play is exactly the same as SimCity 4 but with additional chat and gifting, is a real eye opener. That leaves graphics as the only difference between 4 and 5 (as any other additions are still broken at this point).

  11. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbill View Post
    Guildford has a cathedral. It's not a city.

    Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_st...United_Kingdom
    Hahahah, ironically, did you know EA's UK Law office is in Guildford?

  12. #1092
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    So, all last week, I've witnessed my housemates one by one get consumed by this game, and I finally caved and bought it (Oh how I tried to hold out, but it was no use, I mean that DRM! Just pirate it out of principle you fool! Or just buy play Anno 2070, it's been sitting in your steam library with 3 minutes played for the last year!). But so far, playing with a few friends in a big fat 16 city region has been pretty fun...until the game basically breaks down and things stop working.

    Once you realize that the advisers are always wrong (Or will constantly remind you of say, your water pump is getting low! meanwhile you have a 300kgl an hour excess...), that all the services are essentially broken and it is much easier to simply make a 'crap' city next to a good city, preferrably down wind so you can pollute to your hearts content, one that has all the services & dumps & recycling that takes up FAR too much space, then volunteer everything to your 'good' city (Nothing like a totally flat space with a giant grid of avenues). So far I've found this has worked better than if I have the service in my own city (watching fire trucks sit in a line running up and down avenues while half your city burns down, or looking at 4000 of 12000 garbage bins collected, even though you have enough capacity, but you see all your trucks just driving around in circles, all following eachother), wheras when it's out of town, provided it's not deciding to just stuff up, even if I can't see the trucks, my trash issues are solved! Sometimes!

    I really...really want to like this game, and while it is pretty fun when you're getting into that groove, plopping down roads, making everything fit 'just so', or just ripping thousands of tonnes of coal out of the ground a day, the music swells, you're having fun, then you butt heads with the systems that just stop working. It can be a very punishing game not because it's hard, but because you're running a 20k an hour deficit on the idea that you're exporting thousands of tonnes of coal a day...and then suddenly your coal trucks decide they don't want to go to the advanced coal mine that you just spent all your money on because it's slightly further away than your other coal mines, so they'll just go to the closer ones all the time, meanwhile it fills up, stays full, you export less, go broke, and curse the stupid broken piece of crap game that just doesn't god damn work how it should.

    But from the beginning of a city until that point, it's fun, really damn fun, fun like you play for what feels like 20 minutes and it's now sunrise fun. Yes the cities are too small, yes the lack of terraforming & subterranean building is a huge step backwards, but when you get into that groove, it's just so refreshing to be playing a city building game again, doesn't hurt that the game is absolutely gorgeous either. Plus you can just play sandbox mode, which given that leaderboards and other online features don't even work, it's basically the same, only you can cheat & therefore not need to care that nothing works because you've got tonnes of cash and can just buy your way out of the games broken piece of crap systems!
    Last edited by rasatouche; 16-03-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #1093
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    Seems to me, you need a good dose of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, my friend.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Learning (as I've not played) that the region play is exactly the same as SimCity 4 but with additional chat and gifting, is a real eye opener.
    It's not, really. Additional services can be offered between cities (e.g. healthcare). But it's largely pointless.


    Quote Originally Posted by rasatouche View Post
    But from the beginning of a city until that point, it's fun, really damn fun, fun like you play for what feels like 20 minutes and it's now sunrise fun.
    I agree. I've enjoyed playing with it but the issues with roads ultimately strangle any kind of planning (or lack thereof actually) you put into it. It leads to ridiculous things like ambulances and fire trucks obeying red lights on their way to an emergency, or dump trucks sitting in a long line of traffic when there's a perfectly valid second route available.

    If they fix these issues (and their suggested fix would actually work for the most part) it'd go back to being fun. I'm not 100% certain whether the fudging of the population makes a massive, significant difference to gameplay, provided the portion of the population that is actually simulated is representative of a cross section of the fudged population. I'd like to see exactly what sort of impact the fudged population actually has, because SimCity has worked fine with a population figure that wasn't simulated, so I'd like to see whether it's really making a difference. The biggest problem seems to be agent AI, which they should be able to fix.

    (IB4 "Oh but Maxis/EA lied etc" Yes, but I'm still interested in the actual gameplay effect.)
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  15. #1095
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ROy6VE5ZsZw
    Someone found a way to destroy others cities.

    It's actually a cosmetic destruction on the off-line copy of the said cities.
    The server ones remain intact.
    The poster never synced back to the server the havoc.
    Maybe he can't.
    Maybe it's work in progress.
    We will wait and see.

    Are you people ready for the end scene from Fight Club, take two on EA servers?
    Things seem to go that way.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 02:31 AM.

  16. #1096
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Now the idea has grown into something called corporate towns, or "Free Economic Zone" (free as in "we, the developers and owners of the town, we don't pay taxes much" :D) with partial permanent residences.
    Even if you wanted to build Paris' La Defense or Shanghai's Pudong - which are both just clusters of corporate headquarters as enticed by low taxes and relaxed zoning regulations - good fucking luck with this game.
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  17. #1097
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    La defense is not doable in SC4 only because it's an urban slab (3 layers of transport beneath it, a mall and what-not).
    Apart from that, hm.

    Not in SC, that's for sure.

    SC reminds me of the time Disney had a problem: it appealed to girls perfectly, but the boys were out of reach.
    So they bought those comics copyright (Marvel) and, voila, Disney content for boys ......

    SC is Disney (or farmville, whatever) content for boys too.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 04:06 AM.

  18. #1098
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    La defense is not doable in SC4 only because it's an urban slab (3 layers of transport beneath it, a mall and what-not).
    And also you'd need the collective demand of, oh, 12 million people.

    But yeah, three layers of transit. I think I made a post about this a million pages ago.
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  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Ok, I had to google it, my memory is not that fresh about this one.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_La_D%C3%A9fense

    What that article fails to mention are auto routes to that point, with full bus stations, also underground. +The access to the skyscrapers underground parkings.

    Basicly that city area has no visible surface transportation or roads of any kind.
    (Questions about the fire trucks routes spring into my mind....)

    To all that add the mall, various (independent from the mall) commercial venues, etc.
    I don't know if it lives beyond 5 pm from my own experience, when I visited it all french people were on holiday. I'm not kidding, the light in paris turns out for half a month, each year, sometimes in august, if seen from the satellite.

    The fact that I went there without a workable lighter IS ONLY MY FAULT.
    I've been smoking many years, but it's actually many years minus one day, the day I visited La Defense.
    And I had a decent half-pack in my pocket....
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 05:30 AM.

  20. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And also you'd need the collective demand of, oh, 12 million people.

    But yeah, three layers of transit. I think I made a post about this a million pages ago.
    That post you linked to ... I was just getting over the disappointment of not even having subways in this game.

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