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  1. #1101
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    I know what Nalano wants.
    He wants something between this

    and this

    but underground, if possible :D

    I would call that "urban planning pornography".
    Just like we have our own porn:
    http://www.stairporn.org/
    http://cabinporn.com/

    The more I was reading that post on page 15 the clearer it all became.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 05:22 AM.

  2. #1102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    This is an early idea of urban futurism:



    and this is what we actually built:







    If that's urban pornography, then New York is one big red light district.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  3. #1103
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    It's an example of "you have to aim at very high to hit at least good".
    And NY high is certainly impressive.

    And your images atmosphere somehow reminds me of Les Triplettes de Belleville.
    That while I sometimes check this:

    http://www.google.com/finance?cid=168725
    Make sure u zoom for 6 months, to get a perspective.
    Untill that graph does not hit 15-16$ again, I don't think EA will care much about anything we discussed here.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 03:04 PM.

  4. #1104
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I want to live in Futurist New York! Or Metropolis.

  5. #1105
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    I wish skyscraper bridges had become a thing.

  6. #1106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kandon Arc View Post
    I wish skyscraper bridges had become a thing.
    And those blimps and triplanes!

  7. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Metropolis.
    The word "dystopia" springs into my mind and I can't help it.
    If so, I'm certainly sure you are not being disappointed, no matter where you live :D

    But that's why I was linking the stock exchange too.
    Seeing that image of a corporate town


    I could not help to make a professional observation:
    it's certainly not build for the sake of those living and working there.
    The expression "minced meat" is more appropriate than "population".

    So who is the one getting + value out of it?
    For who's purpose did the urbam planners and architects made that monstrosity ?
    That got me to the stock exchange of our subject, EA.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 03:43 PM.

  8. #1108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    The word "dystopia" springs into my mind and I can't help it.
    If so, I'm certainly sure you are not being disillusioned, no matter where you live :D
    I was thinking about the architecture rather than the social values :P

  9. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I was thinking about the architecture rather than the social values :P
    Architecture is the physical shape of society's moral values.
    Building follows intimately the values of the society it serves, values which dictated it's "needs" too (beyond of warmth and hygiene, but even those are very elastic).


    When visiting a built, anthropic place (city, village, even a highwy) it's awesome exactly because you can distinguish how those people think and function.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  10. #1110
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I am aware of this, however you can still appreciate architecture on an aesthetic level in of itself. I love Paladian churches in London but hate the religion and conformity they partly stand for, they're still pretty though.

  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I am aware of this, however you can still appreciate architecture on an aesthetic level in of itself. I love Paladian churches in London but hate the religion and conformity they partly stand for, they're still pretty though.
    If so, make sure you'll visit Rome's Pantheon one day.
    Take a full day to just sit there and around, like the lowest junkie. Every second will be remembered....
    No pictures can even suggest what you feel inside that thing.

    As for Palladio's "proportions", not even there you can't escape the underlying.
    It's all symetry.
    Everything symetric is a value of power. The bigger the perfectly symetric object, the biggest the power who made it existing (the one who payed). It's a blunt display of how much it could build in one go.

    "that's how many money and power we had at one moment only, when we made this".
    The proportions are there only to split the big thing into smaller, more decent, pieces.
    To make the indecent and vulgar likeable again.
    Last edited by tadada; 17-03-2013 at 04:31 PM.

  12. #1112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Tadada, I don't see the problem with the image you posted (twice). It's a dense cluster of newly-built apartments on vacant land. Cranes are evident in the distance. What you show is a work in progress.

    To call it a "dystopia" assumes a great, great deal; one that I may take umbrage at. Too often in American politics is high density considered a failing of planning - like we're all Calcutta at the turn of the 19th century - where apartment blocks are considered "unlivable," when contrasted with townhouses or detached houses. This is a misnomer. Apartments are perfectly livable, and we have a long, storied history of living in them. They're also exceedingly efficient where townhouses and houses are not.

    We have too many people in the world to not pile them on each other. It's a logistical issue, and one that can be solved. Indeed, the profession that solves that issue is called CITY PLANNING.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  13. #1113
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    I love apartments.
    I lough my a** at those tree huggers depicting the perfect ultimate dwelling as that hobbit home entrenched in grass, with individual "smart and energy efficient utilities".
    The apartment in condominiums are the only decent answer to the world we live in.
    And they are terribly care free, they are much more "the machine for living" than any other.

    The nuance and the difference is in measure.
    How much density.

    When modernists first came up with highrises for dwellings (helped by engineers and prefab concrete) they did it along a very important axiom: to each enough air, light and green.

    Each highrise had to be planted in a sea of green empty space.
    That was not ideal for the social life (you need street continuous facade for walkable cities) but it tended to all the other stuff.

    Of course that enough varies a lot by cultural standards, but there are limits nevertheless, to make decent livable area.
    Therefore the sweet spot is to not build so high (5-8 levels top) make continuous facades, and each building with two other pressed to the left and to the right, continuously (I don't know the translation, the opposed of island building).
    That's how housmanian vertical register, repeated on horizontal, remained so damn functional, imho.
    But, anyway, no matter how you achieve it,the limit is around 15-20k people / sq km.

    Beyond that the transport facilities require those special solutions you mentioned. And green becomes a scarce rarity.
    And light is only something granny used to tell stories about, or to be seen only in the holidays.
    And the incidence of psychiatric illnesses / capita skyrockets, because of "the pressure"(something like 10 fold more for above 20k/sq km density)

    Human beings are indeed social, but they can take only so much fart in the air, from the neighbor.
    There's only so much monkeys you can cramp up without big problems.

    The costs for that mass transit infrastructure required surpasses, price per centimeter length of track, the cost of valid human kidney for transplant :D (a kidney has approx 10 cm) to use a Serge Brussolo kind of image. It's not normal to get to those situations unless there is a very good reason.

    In Manhatan's case, the reason is water. "Do you want to stay here, in those conditions, or scram?"
    But Manhattan payed the price and made it somehow ok. Only just, maybe humor is enough to cover the distance from ok till reality.

    That image I posted twice, depicts something like 40-50k/sq km, in the middle of fking nothing. 3723'20.88" N 12639'41.42" E
    The limit is not sea or whatever, the limit is an economical calculus: "there's only so much space I can provide for the cheap housing in my tax heaven, they all have to fit in or get lost".
    Is it a walkable place ? no. has no continuous facade.

    It's only apartments (maybe some shops at the ground floor,not enough to create "mix zone") therefore after 10pm you could hear the wind blow in empty space and after 12pm no apartments lights much. No sign of life.

    Dormitory only neighborhoods, with density so big and no place to look at from the window but the next apartments 15-30 m away, across the void, are monstrous.

    That's why I said "minced meat".
    Those places are not made for the sake of the people living in them.
    Not by a long shot.
    Last edited by tadada; 18-03-2013 at 12:50 AM.

  14. #1114
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    You should go hang out in council flats (apartments) if you want an active night life.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  15. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You should go hang out in council flats (apartments) if you want an active night life.
    Should I add Latin blood into the veins of the neighborhood?
    :D

    Ok, I might be overreacting about that neighborhood, it's only 600/300 meters (piece of cake), so you can get quite fast out of the shit hole. But out where, there's only dis-articulated open nothingness around.
    I'ts not a continuously, organically evolved area.

    Reminds me of La Haine, watch it to get a lil more of what those dormitory places get to be (although the suburb depicted there is astoundingly well built, imo, the reasons are different in this movie case).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FG4hacQjWU

    Edit: we went a bit off-topic.
    Last edited by tadada; 18-03-2013 at 01:28 AM.

  16. #1116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    So is Cavan, but people still decide to live there, just in houses that are about 20 minutes apart from each other in any random direction, with almost no planning put towards the majority of them.

    "Fuck it, here's some land, there's no electricity or water here, and my nearest neighbour is 40 minutes that way, but this is a fine spot for a home" - everyone who built a house in Cavan ever.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  17. #1117
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Tadada, the Le Corbusier tower-in-the-park bullshit was debunked years ago. We've been slowly demolishing our Projects (council flats to you limeys) because we know they suck. But that's not a density question. That's a land use question.

    New York City's always known about light and air. We have a hundred year history with planning regulations that stipulate light and air. This is why we have "pre law," "old law" and "new law" tenements. Pre law are basically lightless warehouses. Old law are dumbbells with airshafts. I live in a new law tenement, where the sun actually comes in my apartment. And don't think that these are all just short buildings - with your listed ideal of 6-8 stories. Our luxury apartment houses - 14-20 stories - are also built barely to spec.



    It's a logistical problem. It can be solved. It largely has been solved.

    We did the same thing with our towers. With setback laws so streets can get light, we made ziggurats:



    Christopher Alexander would argue that you need to be within six stories of the street (shouting distance) to have a cohesive neighborhood and otherwise people slowly go mad/are alienated from society. This is bullshit. We've long since figured out that we can live where-ever the fuck and be fine, so long as we have privacy and space. Hell, I live on the fifth floor and hang out with zero of my neighbors. The "but people will go nuts" bit is mere speculation by anti-urbanists like Lewis Mumford.

    The Haussmann style is an aesthetic choice, not a social choice. And if we want mass transit to be able to pay for itself, we kinda have to build up. Hell, the only two systems that pay for themselves in the ticket-box are Hong Kong and the PATH - the former because it's Hong Kong, and the latter because it has a dozen stops and half of them are in Manhattan.

    As for New Towns being built in the middle of nowhere, so long as they have everything they need - shopping, entertainment, workplaces, easy access to the outer world - they're perfectly fine. If it's just apartment blocks and nothing (a fault where city planners' projects and private developers' subdivisions are equally to blame; holy shit it took five whole years for a supermarket to enter Long Island City) then sure, but you can't see nor assume that with just that picture.
    Last edited by Nalano; 18-03-2013 at 03:20 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  18. #1118
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    Civitas got canceled. Yall stuck with SimCity Online!

  19. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    Civitas got canceled. Yall stuck with SimCity Online!
    There's still Medieval Mayor.
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    to wound the autumnal city.

  20. #1120
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And if we want mass transit to be able to pay for itself, we kinda have to build up.
    Maybe, but that probably shouldn't be the priority. I believe the MTA does reasonably well in terms of income and efficiency, but man the New York subway system is ugly and smelly and outdated. It works for transporting people, but that's the best you can say for it.

    Berlin is vastly less dense than Manhattan. Except for a tiny area in the center with a few taller buildings, it's kinda like Brooklyn. Almost all the apartment buildings are six floors. It's a lot more relaxed. The subway (BVG) is heavily subsidized, and it's clean and modern compared to NY (though nowhere near some kind of sterile futuristic ideal, it's still Berlin). Trains run every five minutes, and it's mostly great.

    We're not really running out of land, y'know? Berlin is surrounded by little towns, forests, and farmland. There's just no reason to build up. Manhattan is what it is, and I do love it, but it's not the only way.

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