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  1. #1301
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    That's curious, I used to live somewhat near Ibbenbüren for a while. Well, 70km but still. Nowadays I live in the Ruhr area, which is the fifth biggest metropol region in Europe and a whole chapter for itself...
    to wound the autumnal city.

  2. #1302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I understood you perfectly fine (and you certainly have a handle on it).

    And the game should be able to simulate that.

    It doesn't, but it should.
    Thanks, I spend about half an hour on wikipedia to get the words right ;).

    Come to think of it, does Sim City actually have any form of agricultural production (which still takes up a lot of area here, though not necessarily of the workforce)?

  3. #1303
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Unfortunately that aspect was dropped in this iteration.

  4. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    That's curious, I used to live somewhat near Ibbenbüren for a while. Well, 70km but still. Nowadays I live in the Ruhr area, which is the fifth biggest metropol region in Europe and a whole chapter for itself...
    It's a small world...

    I think the Ruhr area is a very interesting case, as it's rather pluricentric, i.e. there's no dominant city that slowly swallowed the surrounding towns, but several medium sized cities that grew into each other forming a vast urban area.

  5. #1305
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    Come to think of it, does Sim City actually have any form of agricultural production (which still takes up a lot of area here, though not necessarily of the workforce)?
    Simcity 4 does.

    Low wage "industrial" work, takes lots of land, increases water pollution. You get "farmer's market" and "state fair" rewards, tho, which have minor boosts to commercial services and health.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I do not see anything likeable with taht.
    I like things that I find funny.

  7. #1307
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Simcity 4 does.

    Low wage "industrial" work, takes lots of land, increases water pollution. You get "farmer's market" and "state fair" rewards, tho, which have minor boosts to commercial services and health.
    And you can create a realistic region!

  8. #1308
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    The Church of Smashbox? I give it a month.

  9. #1309
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    The Church of Smashbox? I give it a month.
    Region, not religion!

    Although...
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  10. #1310
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Did a religion just fall in my lap?

    Shit, I gotta think this through.

  11. #1311
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    Did a religion just fall in my lap?

    Shit, I gotta think this through.
    Thinking is for heretics. We'll burn you if you dare question your own religion.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  12. #1312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post

    *Disclaimer: My urban development terminology may not be entirely accurate, I'm not really an expert and it's rather confusing when there are notable differences between German, American and British concepts and terminology...
    Naaah, don't mind me or nalano being so anal about some terms.
    Between me and him there's an underlying reflex of biting each other's behinds, you don't know the reasons nor you should be interested about it (daft boring things). :)
    (Yes, Nalano, I still own you a come back on this subject, I know) :)

    And I enjoyed your description so much I actually linked it to an older question of mine.....(erm, how to formulate it...)

    (since we're on the SC thread) if your town would be simulated in SC, would it be on the + or - credits, at the end of the year, taking population income too in account?

    If the state government would stop paying state employes or pensions today (and any other form of payment) would the town earn any other money tomorrow, from it's exterior?
    Last edited by tadada; 23-03-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  13. #1313
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    (since we're on the SC thread) if your town would be simulated in SC, would it be on the + or - credits, at the end of the year, taking population income too in account?

    If the state government would stop paying state employes or pensions today (and any other form of payment) would the town earn any other money tomorrow, from it's exterior?
    NYC is big. Like, really big. It'd be hard to simulate it in a granular fashion that SimCity games tend to do, in a way that's intelligible. You'd need more macro tools available to you, not to mention more types of zones.

    As for what would happen if there were no public employees in the city... well, you'd immediately depress the economy because you'd be putting hundreds of thousands out of work. As you'd also be killing public services (as there would be no civil servants) you'd end up killing the tax base (between related job losses and a general exodus for more viable markets) and thus still end up with major deficits despite a much smaller budget.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  14. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    NYC is big. Like, really big. It'd be hard to simulate it in a granular fashion that SimCity games tend to do, in a way that's intelligible. You'd need more macro tools available to you, not to mention more types of zones.

    As for what would happen if there were no public employees in the city... well, you'd immediately depress the economy because you'd be putting hundreds of thousands out of work. As you'd also be killing public services (as there would be no civil servants) you'd end up killing the tax base (between related job losses and a general exodus for more viable markets) and thus still end up with major deficits despite a much smaller budget.
    No question, of course that government jobs disappearing would be a catastrophe.

    My question was, rather, if that town earns it's existence, earns money in any way significant, or is it just a government expense, for teachers, pensioners and so on.
    I asked because lots of small to intermediate towns like the one described by Subatomic live trough this situation, reminders of other times but not economical functional communities.

    As for you and NY, it's funny how much NY coincides with your universe. :D
    I'll just make some quotes from Douglas Adams, replacing "universe" and "space" with NY, just see how well they fit:

    "NY is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to NY."

    "In the beginning the NY was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."


    "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the NY is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

    :D
    And, before you do, I'll put here the quote that fits me, in this situation:
    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    Last edited by tadada; 26-03-2013 at 02:08 PM.

  15. #1315
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    One of the things about NY is entirely geographical, its it's location. I don't know all the details and history, but I know of at least one place setup there mainly because it was a hub of transport and commerce, and is now migrating because the transit systems (boats :P) are not needed or can now be sourced else where (further "up state").

  16. #1316
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    My question was, rather, if that town earns it's existence, earns money in any way significant, or is it just a government expense, for teachers, pensioners and so on.
    I asked because lots of small to intermediate towns like the one described by Subatomic live trough this situation, reminders of other times but not economical functional communities.
    New York City is a net giver in tax money compared to the government services it receives. We generate a profit for the federal and state government. We are a cash cow - indeed, the entire point of cities (besides historic defensibility) is economic efficiency. We subsidize communities that are not self-sufficient, and indeed the entire point of a federal government is that communities that need support get support from communities that are capable of giving it.

    The irony of the "by your own bootstraps" GOP doctrine is that most of the states that vote GOP (or espouse a particularly libertarian worldview) are net takers of federal funds.

    But as to your original point - whether we're a welfare state - yes, we are. But we pay for it. Even Hizzoner Bloomberg says that we pay high taxes because we want the services those taxes provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    One of the things about NY is entirely geographical, its it's location. I don't know all the details and history, but I know of at least one place setup there mainly because it was a hub of transport and commerce, and is now migrating because the transit systems (boats :P) are not needed or can now be sourced else where (further "up state").
    New York is a natural port, which means it has land masses that stop high waves from the ocean and is still deep enough to allow ships to butt right against the land without grounding. New York has a wide, navigable river, which was extended through canals to the Great Lakes. New York is mostly on top of granite, which is easy to build on.

    However...

    New York's natural port is insufficient for the largest of modern container ships, which is why major shipping interests are now in the Port of Newark/Elizabeth, dredged out from Newark bay across the Hudson from the city proper. New York is separated from the mainland by a large river, which has historically barred direct freight rail access to the country and limited intercity passenger rail, which has stagnated heavy industry within the city.

    But...

    New York leads the country as an air hub, as its three airports dominate the country in both domestic and international flights, and has the best skilled labor market - and number of educational institutions - that is conveniently fed by a public transit system that moves more people than the rest of the country combined.

    Effectively, while the city was made because of its natural port (and amoral economic policies when competing against Philadelphia and Boston), it keeps its position because of its infrastructure and skilled labor market.
    Last edited by Nalano; 26-03-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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  17. #1317
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    And that brings the question if uber metropolises like that (NY, in this case) can live without small, charming and insignificant places like the small towns lost in nowhere land.

    Hong Kong apparently says that yes, they can, but that's rubbish, the small towns and whatever their role is is being mandated to China and whatever leys around there (S Korea?)'s miriad of small nameless towns. (and by small and nameless I could easily go over 1 mil population and still be right, when China is involved).

    It just took me so long to answer because I can't get links to the Hitchhiker's guide without seeing it again, goddammit.

    And if NY is still functional is a small piece of a larger question: if N America still is ?
    Something about geographical versus technological limitations changing the way global economy and civilization evolves.
    Edit: Some theory that says that the Atlantic is no longer the big pond, but the Pacific is, making East Asia the new thriving horizon and condemning America to the slow and pointless melting down Europe is well accustomed with.

    Edit2:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934564
    Last edited by tadada; 26-03-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  18. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Naaah, don't mind me or nalano being so anal about some terms.
    Between me and him there's an underlying reflex of biting each other's behinds, you don't know the reasons nor you should be interested about it (daft boring things). :)
    (Yes, Nalano, I still own you a come back on this subject, I know) :)

    And I enjoyed your description so much I actually linked it to an older question of mine.....(erm, how to formulate it...)

    (since we're on the SC thread) if your town would be simulated in SC, would it be on the + or - credits, at the end of the year, taking population income too in account?

    If the state government would stop paying state employes or pensions today (and any other form of payment) would the town earn any other money tomorrow, from it's exterior?
    That's really hard to say, as financing is notoriously complex. Different taxes go to different levels of the federal system, which in turn give some of that back to other levels (the "Länderfinanzausgleich", the system which allocates money from the Länder, similar to U.S federal states, to the towns is often a highly controversial topic of local politics). If the cities could keep all the taxes levied in their area? Perhaps the city would still work, though I've honestly no idea.

    I looked up a few numbers, according to which the city has a nearly even level of commuter flow (about as many people commute out of the city to work as commute into it) and a relatively low unemployment rate and an almost balanced budget, though as it also supplies a lot of public institutions for the surrounding towns (several secondary schools, public services, a hospital), it also has a lot of additonal costs.

    Also, most city employees are already paid by the cities themselves as far as I know, only employees in federal or state institutions (like the unemployment office or the police) are paid directly by the federal or state government.

  19. #1319
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    London would do fine on those measures, it's why I keep saying we should form an independent city state and get away from all the frankly insane UKIP voting bastards in the country side.

  20. #1320
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    And that brings the question if uber metropolises like that (NY, in this case) can live without small, charming and insignificant places like the small towns lost in nowhere land.
    There are already city-states in the world. Singapore is a well-known example.

    New York City, were it to secede (and it has tried to secede three times) would immediately find itself levying only half the tax burden and still have a $3 billion/yr surplus. We would find ourselves to be, literally as well as figuratively, an island off the coast of America (named Tri-Insula, as per one of the previous secession attempts). As we already have one of the best intelligence departments in the country and a navy yard, we'd really only need, say, a ballistic missile or two to be enough of a deterrent.

    Not that it will happen, nor would that be the best solution for the country.

    As for the dusk of the American Empire, while America is no longer a singular executive in the world, the future looks more multimodal than unimodal under the helm of China. Our strength is in the fact that our national character is tied to an ideology rather than an ethnic heritage. So long as we keep accepting immigrants, we'll be one of the top dogs.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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