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  1. #1
    Obscure Node Berlin's Avatar
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    Children killing children. Well, allright, yeah?

    Well, guys, I'm kinda interested in your opinion.

    I've seen this video yesterday and I wrote about it as Call of Duty: Childish Warfare referring to the golden ages of my/our childhood while a stick in the hands of a child was a sword and a handful of sand was a bomb. You know, those great sandbox games and I mean the real sandbox games?

    The thing's that, yeah, this video got right everything that I was imagining back then - the blood, the explosions, maybe I'm fucked up but yeah, in my head and probably in the minds of my friends it was exactly like that.



    And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?

    So the reaction was partially good and pro and partially bashing that there's nothing fun in children shooting children and that it's politically incorrect. Fuck political correctness, who cares? But one dude wrote that it's just a step for this thing to be as pervert as childporn, so well, I kinda wonder what's going on?

    My country's kinda medieval so well, what do you, civilized folks think about it?

  2. #2
    Network Hub Gerbick's Avatar
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    I watched that the other day. With my kids. We all thought it was good. And they haven't gone on murder rampages. Yet.

    It's exactly the kind of game kids play (I remember epic 'battles' in the field behind my dad's house, tunnelling through the long grass to ambush the enemy!). Putting some effects on a video of a normal kids game is hardly bringing society down.

    There are many places in the world where kids are forced to fight in real wars. Are the same people moaning about this vid doing anything to help them?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berlin View Post
    I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys
    Genuinely don't understand what's wrong with that idea.

    In re the rest of it: I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong about this sort of play. In fact one could argue that it's important in the development of the socially vital Theory of Mind. I think the reason why people tend to be unhappy about the subject is more out of a wish to shield their children from what is a very nasty reality (as mentioned by Gerbick) rather than a belief that the pretend play itself is immoral. War is a horrible thing and so people assume that pretend war is also a horrible thing. I can entirely understand why people might assume there would be a link and that all children who play at fighting will become soldiers even though I have seen no evidence of even a slight link. Parents often tend to be a little overprotective but I don't think that's a reason to be upset with them. They're likely doing their best and every parent will screw up somewhere.

  4. #4
    Obscure Node solipsistnation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berlin View Post
    And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?
    We've become slightly more human and slightly less hung up on forcing kids into traditional gender roles before they've even really formed an awareness of gender? My son has a pink baby doll he loves, and a pretty nice play kitchen (although I guess high-level chefs are more often male these days), AND he has toy tools and blocks and stuff too. So, let's not get all "HEY BOYS NEED TO PLAY WITH TOY GUNS, DAY ONE! POP 'EM OUT OF THE WOMB AND BAM! SWORDS!"
    Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь.

  5. #5
    Obscure Node Berlin's Avatar
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    No, I didn't really mean this to sound like that, it wasn't really a statement of opinion etc., it was rather that... Well, if we'd watch it from a certain perspective there's no real difference between giving boys plastic kitchens and stuff and giving them toyguns, the only difference is the traditional difference of genders. Yet at the same time people who are trying to raise their children genderless are forbidding them the traditional toys such as toy guns.

    What I wanted to say is that we're trying to force children into genderless roles in society, what seems to be even worse than pushing them into genders. Yes, awareness of gender is something that you develop with age, but at the same time your parents are pretty much sure what gender their child is, yeah?

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    My mum never let me have toy guns and it never did me any harm. *twitch*

  7. #7
    Obscure Node Berlin's Avatar
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    Oh come on, sorry if I offended anybody, never meant to do this. I have problems phrasing my thoughts in English today ;)

  8. #8
    Lesser Hivemind Node NecroKnight's Avatar
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    This video is so f***ing epic. Sure it's a bit over the top, but from a child's point of view it's fun & awesome. Children don't percept this things so serious as adults do.

  9. #9
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    yeah its a mad world we live in, my son cant even play British bulldog in school because its too violent he also has to call the black board a chalk board and a white board is a wipe board.


    but yeah not buying boys guns and sword toys or making them play with effeminate pink toys is only going to end badly

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsistnation View Post
    (although I guess high-level chefs are more often male these days)
    I think they always were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berlin View Post
    Yet at the same time people who are trying to raise their children genderless are forbidding them the traditional toys such as toy guns.
    Do you think that's the reason why? It's always seemed to me to be an issue of violence rather than one of gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berlin View Post
    What I wanted to say is that we're trying to force children into genderless roles in society, what seems to be even worse than pushing them into genders. Yes, awareness of gender is something that you develop with age, but at the same time your parents are pretty much sure what gender their child is, yeah?
    Parents are pretty sure what sex their child is. That does not necessarily have much to do with what gender their child may be. Perhaps most important to recognise is that what parents do in this regard doesn't necessarily have much effect. Gender is a societal product and society will define the child's gender at a later date. Actions like solipsistnation's are therefore a positive step as the child is clearly enjoying himself before anything else happens.

  11. #11
    Obscure Node Berlin's Avatar
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    @EndelNurk
    It's the issue of violence, of course, but at the same time somehow this childish violence is pretty fun, at least for a child. It has emotions attached, it's something... alive, if you know what I mean. Can't find the right adjective. The rest of your post is of course true, yet I believe that it's rather the case of parents reacting to what the child finds interesting. It shouldn't be an agenda, no politics, no "it's wrong", it should rather be something like: "My kid's interested in drawing pictures, not throwing rocks at friends, then I should buy him some crayons".

    You know, when I was growing up the issue of "it's not manly, girls do that" was pretty... common.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    Sorry, did that come across as po-faced? I attempted a funny.

    Anyhoo, I loved the video! And I think the trend towards over-protectiveness is probably damaging in the long run - if you wrap kids in metaphorical bubble wrap their whole lives they'll just grow up expecting the world to do the same. (If you wrap them in actual bubble wrap you're a terrible parent.)

    On the other hand, I really didn't have toy guns growing up as my mum didn't approve, and it really didn't do me any harm. And I don't see anything wrong with giving toy guns to girls, or My Little Ponies to boys, if that's what they want. But gender roles are pretty deeply ingrained into society, and kids are extremely sensitive to these things. There's even evidence that boys - and male young of other primates - genuinely do prefer toys like building blocks and trucks, while girls and little female chimps (or whatever they were studying) are innately attracted to soft pink things.

    tl; dr - they'll probably figure it out for themselves.
    Last edited by ColOfNature; 04-06-2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: speeling

  13. #13
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    I think it still is common whether that be for good or ill.

    I think we probably are not disagreeing about anything. Your child-centred approach seems similar to solipsistnation's attitude. I have no problem with pretend violence at all. As I said earlier, pretend play is vital to development. I have some reservations about the executions in the video but apart from that the video seems fine to me.

  14. #14
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    This is something I've given thought to, actually. The way children currently seem to be wrapped in cotton wool by society and their parents. Children are extremely robust and quick to heal, and I think that's for good reason. There's nothing wrong with going out and running around, falling over, climbing trees and getting cuts, bruises and scrapes in the process. I feel like modern children spend far too much time playing games or glued to the television, and it concerns me. Personally I feel like childhood is when you build your confidence in such areas, and failure to be exposed to them when your body is its most resilient can harm your self belief later in life.

    As a strange analogy, I've noticed that the people who are most freaked out by bees and wasps (Sans allergics) are people who have never been stung. It's the concept of the sting that is frightening, rather than the act itself. I believe that children are being raised with very little wordly experience now, and it does concern me. Litigation culture and "health and safety gone mad" have a lot to blame for this. Councils remove all the see-saws and roundabouts from parks for fear of being sued, and school trips have to be so foolproof in their health and safety that they become interminably dull.

    That's not to say that if I were a parent I would happily throw my kid down the stairs to give them some "life experience", as protecting your child is natural and healthy. But holding them too close to your bosom through their childhood might actually have a negative impact.

  15. #15
    Obscure Node Berlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [UW] View Post
    As a strange analogy, I've noticed that the people who are most freaked out by bees and wasps (Sans allergics) are people who have never been stung. It's the concept of the sting that is frightening, rather than the act itself. I believe that children are being raised with very little wordly experience now, and it does concern me. Litigation culture and "health and safety gone mad" have a lot to blame for this. Councils remove all the see-saws and roundabouts from parks for fear of being sued, and school trips have to be so foolproof in their health and safety that they become interminably dull.
    Never thought of it before but it's a beautiful thought, man.

  16. #16
    Obscure Node Baris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NecroKnight View Post
    This video is so f***ing epic. Sure it's a bit over the top, but from a child's point of view it's fun & awesome. Children don't percept this things so serious as adults do.
    This. How are you people having an intelligent debate with well though out, logical points when there's that bit of awesomeness just a 'play' button away. PSHUUUU, BOOM.

  17. #17
    Lesser Hivemind Node westyfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    My mum never let me have toy guns and it never did me any harm. *twitch*
    The mother of one of my friends once told me "We never let [son] play with toy guns when he was young. We realised this was pointless the day he chewed his toast into the shape of a pistol and shot us across the breakfast table."

    I don't have a problem with the video. As long as children understand that real weapons are dangerous and not simply 'cool, just like in Call of Duty!', it's fine by me.

  18. #18
    Obscure Node solipsistnation's Avatar
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    No problem. 8) I've just been thinking about this a bit recently. My kid's about 20 months old, and he has a pink baby doll, a kitchen, and a toolbox. I figure if he likes things, he might as well enjoy them regardless of the traditional gender roles associated.

    That's not the same thing as discouraging toy guns, though. The worry isn't that children could grow up to be soldiers but that they could grow up without a sense of the value of human life... Kind of like the things they think video games do to players.
    Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь.

  19. #19
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    ОБЛАГОРОЖЕННЫЕ БРИЛЛИАНТЫ - НУЖЕН СОВЕТ

    Ребята , посоветуйте , кто знает или сталкивался. Хочу купить подвеску с бриллиантом массой более карата, но знаю , что это стоит безумных денег и мне не по карману. Но читала , что существуют облагороженные бриллианты, которые ничем не отличаются от обычных, но стоят меньше в два раза. Кто-нибудь вообще держал такие в руках, они правда прекрасны ?

  20. #20
    Activated Node mpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berlin View Post
    And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?
    Um, mibbe I'm just a filthy liberal, but violence is wrong. I don't want my own son to play with any sort of toy gun as I think they're horrendous; I know that my parents where the same with me. I've been around real guns a few times (always in the hands of police, mind) and they terrify me.

    That didn't stop me playing "sodies" down the park with my friends when I was a young boy, re-enacting the War all over again and generally arguing about who got shot and who should be dead.

    Nothing will stop children from playing games with imaginary violence - it's how they develop and learn and establish primacy. Remember, nurseries and primary schools are just zoos with slightly less cages.

    Rambling aside, it's just a music video. It's parody. Kids will be kids.

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