Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
I don't see why you guys even argue over semantic bullcrap like genre definitions or, in this case, the definition of fun (which is extremely subjective, you all must admit).
If you don't have these discussions then you get lots of people writing posts that all use the same words but everyone is using them to mean different things and so nobody has any idea what anyone else is saying. This thread is about whether games can be "not fun". It's rather important if you're posting your opinion about this that you are clear about what "not fun" means to you. Otherwise everyone else has no idea.

It's not like you and I and everyone else have to agree on what "not fun" means, or all have to agree whether or not Dear Esther is a game, but it's absolutely vital that everyone is clear about what they mean by "fun" and "game", so that everyone else can understand where they're coming from. I don't care too much if someone thinks Dear Esther is a game, and I don't think they should care too much that I don't, but we need to know why each of us thinks that so we know what assumptions and definitions are being used so we know what everyone is saying. It also makes it easier to identify the things you agree with and disagree with if it's all laid out as openly as possible.

Finally, the need to be clear and precise about everything you're saying is often useful to identify areas of your own thinking that you're not as comfortable with as you originally thought.

Of course, I'm a mathematician, so laying out assumptions and definitions clearly is something I probably find rather more important and useful than many people.