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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Even the butterflies? Maybe it's just you... ;)

    But seriously yeah, I thought it was kind of absurd that they had the "Oh no don't kill me!" animation added, after which the said bandit or whatever would promptly get back up and take another swipe at you. What was the point of that? First few times I paused to see if they'd actually run away or something, but nope. And it's not like there's no mechanic for them to escape, what with the Fear spell, so I don't know why they didn't include it.
    They were really just asking for help in offing themselves. I mean, for fuck's sake, who names their son "Bandit?"
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  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    They were really just asking for help in offing themselves. I mean, for fuck's sake, who names their son "Bandit?"
    Rednecks? I mean they're presumably poor and hungry with weapons, so...

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Even the butterflies? Maybe it's just you... ;)
    Bastards had it coming! Always stealing my coins and rings and books and things, oh yes they are ... nasty little beasties, aren't they precious ... so we takes their wings and eats them all up, don't we precious?

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    But seriously yeah, I thought it was kind of absurd that they had the "Oh no don't kill me!" animation added, after which the said bandit or whatever would promptly get back up and take another swipe at you. What was the point of that? First few times I paused to see if they'd actually run away or something, but nope. And it's not like there's no mechanic for them to escape, what with the Fear spell, so I don't know why they didn't include it.
    Arrgh, I waited for them to run away the first couple times too. I actually almost died once because I walked away from a cowering enemy only to take a few hefty blows to the back of my squishy wizard head ... but the tactic hasn't been particularly successful since that one almost-very-lucky bastard tried it. It's particularly bad with Wolves, because they seem to very quickly decide they've given up during a fight which, in low levels when they take a few hits, causes them to do battle by way of an awkward ellipse as they cower and resolve, cower and resolve.
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  4. #84
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    I've played Oblivion and Skyrim with enemies-run-away mods, and I've concluded it just doesn't work very well and often ends up annoying. Probably the best approach would be to expand Skyrim's "don't come any closer or we'll attack" AI to anything that judges itself significantly inferior to you, but have them always fight to the death. That way, you only fight weaker opponents if you explicitly want to, and if you explicitly want to you probably want to kill them rather than chase them off.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I've played Oblivion and Skyrim with enemies-run-away mods, and I've concluded it just doesn't work very well and often ends up annoying. Probably the best approach would be to expand Skyrim's "don't come any closer or we'll attack" AI to anything that judges itself significantly inferior to you, but have them always fight to the death. That way, you only fight weaker opponents if you explicitly want to, and if you explicitly want to you probably want to kill them rather than chase them off.
    I don't think I'd find it annoying. To me, when I engage a significantly weaker opponent because I want something and they stand their ground ... sure it means I get what I want, but it doesn't feel very organic or interesting. Opponents become divided between those who are interesting to engage with and those are Things You Can Sell dispensers--this is still preferable to all of them attacking you without provocation AND being divided between those two categories. I like the idea of going on the hunt, such as when I chase down a dear in the game (except that these are CRAZY slow compared to me). Of encountering the defenseless. Of being able to give a show of power (and perhaps even a bluff) that intimidates my enemies and saves me the time and trouble of a fight (or the life of someone squishy I'm escorting). It adds both a feeling of power and freedom in some instances and a feeling of horror or distress that stays the hand in others. It also, mechanically, adds the excitement of the chase. But in addition I think there's something to be said for a game world in which not everyone and their pet hamster pulls out a kitchen knife and lays into whatever attacks them with bravado. I mean ... surely SOME of the citizenry must be frightened of big, shouting, spell-casting, stuff-breathing Dragons (there's a mod for that, though it makes everyone hide indiscriminately ... no occasional brave citizens, just you and the guards).

    This isn't so much about realism as it is characterization. I'm supposedly special and brave and powerful, but no one is afraid of me or impressed with me outside of dialog. Dragons are apparently difficult to kill ... but guards seem to take them down with relatively few casualties. I'd be fine not being special and brave and powerful--it's the disconnect between game and fiction that I find jarring.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardust’s Music Sounds Better With You. There’s lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I've played Oblivion and Skyrim with enemies-run-away mods, and I've concluded it just doesn't work very well and often ends up annoying. Probably the best approach would be to expand Skyrim's "don't come any closer or we'll attack" AI to anything that judges itself significantly inferior to you, but have them always fight to the death. That way, you only fight weaker opponents if you explicitly want to, and if you explicitly want to you probably want to kill them rather than chase them off.
    The problems with enemies running away:
    - you don't gain experience for killing them
    - you don't get the loot
    - if they just run out of melee range and shoot, like in Diablo1, it can be frustrating and time-consuming to hunt them down

    It can be easily fixed. 1) Give xp for enemies running away (equivalent to killing, and once xp for run away is awarded you can no longer get xp for killing him). 2) Enemies drop their most valuable items in panic.

    With these two, the incentives to chase disappear. Normally - in real life - you'd be happy that your enemies ran away UNLESS they were going to bring reinforcements. In real life, enemies are a threat and an obstacle. In games, they are most often a resource, you don't want that to run away. In multiplayer games, players often want to get credit for a kill. Xp systems, levelups and unlocks are incredibly common in all genres of contemporary games.
    pass

  7. #87
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    The problems with enemies running away:
    - you don't gain experience for killing them
    - you don't get the loot
    - if they just run out of melee range and shoot, like in Diablo1, it can be frustrating and time-consuming to hunt them down

    It can be easily fixed. 1) Give xp for enemies running away (equivalent to killing, and once xp for run away is awarded you can no longer get xp for killing him). 2) Enemies drop their most valuable items in panic.

    With these two, the incentives to chase disappear. Normally - in real life - you'd be happy that your enemies ran away UNLESS they were going to bring reinforcements. In real life, enemies are a threat and an obstacle. In games, they are most often a resource, you don't want that to run away. In multiplayer games, players often want to get credit for a kill. Xp systems, levelups and unlocks are incredibly common in all genres of contemporary games.
    the XP for kills has been a very long enduring problem with RPGs. Deus Ex & System Shock alikes did this best, in my opinion, but of course, it makes it harder to make "random encounters", as you need to asses every situation individually and then award XP accordingly.

    However, when it works, it works pretty well.
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  8. #88
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    Why don't just make that every hit gives you experience points (doesn't Skyrim works this way?)? Also I love gwathdring's idea of encountering strong (but stupid, I assume) enemies and bluffing them that you're a fancy, powerful wizard or something like that, so they run away and you get XP and all the stuff they left.

  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Games should have zero XP for killing shit and instead have XP for accomplishing goals. That way it doesn't matter if you won the day by murdering everything in sight or by bluffing/sneaking your way in to grab the macguffin. Remove the enemies as a resource and the problem of fleeing enemies goes away.

    That's how I'd do it in a tabletop game. Sure the possibilities in a tabletop game are endless, but a PC game can certainly accomplish this.
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  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Games should have zero XP for killing shit and instead have XP for accomplishing goals. That way it doesn't matter if you won the day by murdering everything in sight or by bluffing/sneaking your way in to grab the macguffin. Remove the enemies as a resource and the problem of fleeing enemies goes away.

    That's how I'd do it in a tabletop game. Sure the possibilities in a tabletop game are endless, but a PC game can certainly accomplish this.
    A fair number of PC games already do this. It allows them to pace the speed of leveling up very well.
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  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Skyrim is one of the PC games that already do this. You get experience for gaining skill points which are gained by using skills. You get "XP" for killing enemies, but only for killing-things skills like One Handed Weapons.

    The loot part is more interesting, but I would say it's the point. It would be cool if there was a "Drop your weapons, give me the jewelry, and fuck off!" mechanic to go along with the bluffing enemies into running off with a show of power thing, but beyond that I think the whole "people sometimes run away" thing should mean you get less loot unless to doggedly pursue everyone with shiny things. I like that idea a lot. :)

    Since Tabletop games were mentioned, Apocalypse World is a tabletop game that also gives you points for using skills. Every game, some of your abilities are highlighted. Every time you use a move that causes you to roll that ability, you get an advancement. So if the GM wants to put you in some tight spots, she might highlight your Hard which is at a -1. So if you want XP, you're going to have to Go Aggro and Seize By Force ... and probably suffer some nasty consequences along the way.

    The FATE family of games does something different. Every session you get a Minor Advancement which allows you to shift skills in your Skill Pyramid and you can also change an Aspect (specific bits of character flavor that give situational bonuses to rolls) if you have a fictional excuse to do so. Every so many sessions you have bigger advancements that allow you to gain skill points and powers and whatnot--typically it's based on the flow of the plot, but mostly it's the GM's discretion. How is the game pacing? How's the power-level? Time for an advancement!

    XP systems just don't seem interesting or functional in comparison.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 02-02-2013 at 08:25 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardust’s Music Sounds Better With You. There’s lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context that’s cheating -bull0

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