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  1. #201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    For me the ranking is Oblivion > Morrowind > Skyrim. The three games are sufficiently different that all possible rankings seem plausible.
    Oblivion, with what is arguably the world's worst leveling mechanic?
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Oblivion, with what is arguably the world's worst leveling mechanic?
    I was talking about the combat. I don't really like any of the three for levelling. I am quite an opponent of the learn-by-doing levelling system in general, it must be said. Overall Skyrim probably has the best core levelling mechanics, but really needs some way of defining your character better to begin with. Of course Skyrim's levelling has the advantage that it has the fewest characteristics to deal with.

    In Oblivion I used a mod that levelled your core statistics as a weighted average of your skills for each stat (weightings customizable). This was a big improvement over the rather odd way that core stats increased in vanilla. Also if you recalculated your stats based on starting skills you got some very funny characters. Strength 7 is amusing, you can't really pick up swords.
    Last edited by NathanH; 25-02-2013 at 05:38 PM.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  3. #203
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Putting it in capitals doesn't make it automatically right. The idea that a game that doesn't need the HUD has automatically better combat than a game that does need the HUD is bizarre in the extreme. And since neither Oblivion nor Skyrim are dice-roll based RPGs, it seems that you have decided to be dangerous and wrong. Bad luck.
    Huh?

    My point is that Skyrim and Oblivion, for all their flaws, have good combat systems. They have lots of visual feedback and still make use of stats. As a result, playing Morrowind after playing them really shows just how bad the combat system and feedback of Morrowind was.
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Huh?

    My point is that Skyrim and Oblivion, for all their flaws, have good combat systems. They have lots of visual feedback and still make use of stats. As a result, playing Morrowind after playing them really shows just how bad the combat system and feedback of Morrowind was.
    All you've done so far is state that the visual feedback in Oblivion and Skyrim are better. Of course this is not difficult because in Oblivion and Skyrim there are no dice rolls, so there is no need for a miss animation. But better or worse visual feedback is a fairly minor point in a discussion about RPG combat mechanics.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  5. #205
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    All you've done so far is state that the visual feedback in Oblivion and Skyrim are better. Of course this is not difficult because in Oblivion and Skyrim there are no dice rolls, so there is no need for a miss animation. But better or worse visual feedback is a fairly minor point in a discussion about RPG combat mechanics.
    Except that it isn't. Its the same reason why people like detailed character models and weapon models and nice landscapes. If you are gonna stare at something for 40+ hours, it better be pretty.

    Morrowind had a different underlying ruleset, yes. But that is no excuse for having little to no visual feedback. Like someone (nally?) said: A simple miss/block animation would have done wonders. It would allow for that ruleset to be used while still providing visual feedback. Hell, if they wanted to go all out, they could have a unique animation for all three outcomes:

    Miss: The animation they have
    Hit: Upon registering a hit, the weapon reverses animation to imply that you hit something but didn't slice through like a high frequency blade
    Block/Armour: Upon registering a hit, the weapon pauses for a moment, then reverses animation to imply you hit something, it absorbed the blow, and you need to strike again.

    Bingo, the ruleset they have with visual feedback that greatly improves the feel and effectiveness of the combat. Because if all that matters are the die rolls, just do a busy-animation and let us stare at the console.

    For ANY system, you need the appropriate feedback. Morrowind's combat system ages very poorly (and is pretty bad) because there is little to no feedback. Thus, the player is in the dark as to what is actually going on.
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  6. #206
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I was talking about the combat. I don't really like any of the three for levelling. I am quite an opponent of the learn-by-doing levelling system in general, it must be said. Overall Skyrim probably has the best core levelling mechanics, but really needs some way of defining your character better to begin with. Of course Skyrim's levelling has the advantage that it has the fewest characteristics to deal with.

    In Oblivion I used a mod that levelled your core statistics as a weighted average of your skills for each stat (weightings customizable). This was a big improvement over the rather odd way that core stats increased in vanilla. Also if you recalculated your stats based on starting skills you got some very funny characters. Strength 7 is amusing, you can't really pick up swords.
    The problem with the leveling mechanics were leveled monsters. If monsters across the world were static, where easy monsters were near the towns and hard monsters were hidden in the mountains, the leveling mechanics - whether "pick from a list of traits" or "learn by doing" - wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, the game actively punished you for futzing about. Morrowind especially so with its "athletics" stats, but Oblivion was much more aggressive with the monsters.

    Either way, if you're going to do a die roll, you need need need to either have visual feedback (my character makes a clumsy swing) or show me the roll itself (a la traditional top-down RPGs).
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  7. #207
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    There's an animation for missing? Don't recall seeing any. Would be nice but also potentially take alot of work since you attack from basically any angle.

  8. #208
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    It's really annoying to think that there is still no solution to fix corrupted saved games. I always encounter this problem with NBA2K series whether i'm playing on Xbox or PC.
    i hate it when the saved game decides to quit on me after putting on hours and hours on it.
    it's a clear waste of time.

  9. #209
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    I'd love to see a breakdown of every dice roll made in a dice-based RPG. Not just the roll but all the modifiers. I'd put that as a far more important feature than animations. I hate that most RPG designers don't want to do this. Show me the rules, you bastards!
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  10. #210
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    There's an animation for missing?
    There isn't. That's the point.
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  11. #211
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    There isn't. That's the point.
    Actually, I was implying that the default animation is a "missing" animation since there is no sense of what happened outside of a red bloodsplurt. I was trying to point out how the exact same animation can be used for all three outcomes, they just need to twiddle with the order of the frames a bit to get all three effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I'd love to see a breakdown of every dice roll made in a dice-based RPG. Not just the roll but all the modifiers. I'd put that as a far more important feature than animations. I hate that most RPG designers don't want to do this. Show me the rules, you bastards!
    I too love that option (I think The Witcher 2 even has it, even though it has a beautiful combat system with great feedback), but I also think it is a huge crutch and detracts from the gameplay. So much so that if I could be arsed to, I would list it in the other thread as something I love but don't think belongs in games.

    Its the same reason why I try and play without subtitles whenever possible as I feel they detract from the stuff on the screen. I give RE4 (and, to a lesser extent, RE5 and RE6) HUGE credit for using QTEs to keep you focused on what happens in those cutscenes.
    Last edited by gundato; 25-02-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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  12. #212
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I give RE4 (and, to a lesser extent, RE5 and RE6) HUGE credit for using QTEs to keep you focused on what happens in those cutscenes.
    If your performance on the D3 thread wasn't conclusive enough, this officially makes you the devil.
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  13. #213
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    It really is as if gundato has the inverse of all my opinions, haha.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  14. #214
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    RE4 got the QTEs right as far as I am concerned. Most of them made sense in the context of the game's control scheme and they kept the player focused. RE5 and RE6 went off the deep end, although RE6 did a much better job than RE5.

    Just because you don't like a mechanic in general doesn't mean it can't be used well in some games.
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  15. #215
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    I really like seeing dice rolls in turn based or pause based RPGs, but I don't think it would work as well in real time combat as the type of "visual feedback" being discussed. I never played Witcher 2 with dice rolls shown, but the combat seems too fast paced and demanding of your attention that you wouldn't be able to keep up with dice rolls anyway.

    Although now that I think about it it would be nice to review an encounter by reading the dice rolls after it's over.

  16. #216
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    In Oblivion I spent a couple of days fooling around, then I went to sleep and was forced to level up a dozen times. My jimmies were properly rustled. There was no option to cancel the leveling, so the game skipped over a huge batch of content.

    Having to sleep in order to trigger the level-up is charming and interesting, but the lack of a cancel button ruined the game.
    I should reinstall Oblivion, I still never reached the Shivering Isles or played most DLC content.

  17. #217
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    In Oblivion I spent a couple of days fooling around, then I went to sleep and was forced to level up a dozen times. My jimmies were properly rustled. There was no option to cancel the leveling, so the game skipped over a huge batch of content.

    Having to sleep in order to trigger the level-up is charming and interesting, but the lack of a cancel button ruined the game.
    I should reinstall Oblivion, I still never reached the Shivering Isles or played most DLC content.
    You can install it and go right to the Shivering Isles, that DLC is brilliant.

  18. #218
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You can install it and go right to the Shivering Isles, that DLC is brilliant.
    Second that, while it comes a bit too close to Morrowind in some areas in terms of design (which is bad in that it looks like they just ripped off the aesthetics in some cases) the environment is a lot more inspired and alien than Oblivion itself. It's fun to explore and get mixed up in all the little things going on.

  19. #219
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  20. #220
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Neverwinter Nights had animations for all of the major categories of attack effect (Critical, Miss, Dodge, Block/Parry, Hit and whatever I've inevitably forgotten). It also had a full breakdown of the background dice results, modifiers and all. This is in an Isometric 3D rpg with pretty much no action mechanics whatsoever and a tactical pause function. Surely a game in full third/first-person 3D with action-based movement and attacks would find such details important as well, whether or not there are dice involved.

    Visual feedback is a really important part of most games. Odd-ball games mix this up intentionally sometimes, but unless you're trying to make a statement by focusing on sound or removing feedback in general, visual feedback for character actions and in-game effects is an essential, foundational principle of designing a video game.
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