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  1. #241
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    And you'll notice none of it because you're only watching and waiting for the button prompts to appear. So it's all wasted effort basically.
    WHen done well, you still focus on the gameplay at hand. I might find the demo for the latest God of War to be QUITE underwhelming, but it does QTE-flashes pretty well (but, like the rest of God of War, mostly sucks at the actual use of them). Square is on the left side of the screen, circle is on the right, x is on the bottom, triangle the top, L1 and R1 flash in the middle. Guess where you focus? On the actual spectacle in front of you.

    Its just like when people bitch about subtitles being bad because they distract you. If done "poorly", then yes. They are at the bottom of the screen. But Man on Fire was spectacular in that it used subtitles to keep you focused on Denzel Washington shoving his hand up somebody's poopchute.


    Who's pretending the other person is stupid? I'm saying a game that was almost as non-interactive as Dragon's Lair was barely a game and if that's your favorite example then you probably don't like games being interactive. But hey if ad-hominon is all you know then just say so and be done with it so everyone knows not to bother with your pointless babbling.
    Deepest apologies, I must have mistaken the spamming of facepalm pictures and "ha ha, dragon's lair sucks and you should play it" as something it wasn't.

    And I note you ignored the whole "The entire point of them is to make you feel frantic and have to react quickly" angle :p




    Now you're just diving into the deep end of WAAAAAAAAARRRGAARRBLE.
    So I take it we are done here? No more discussion, just random spouting? Pity, I enjoy a good discussion on whether a gameplay mechanic is fundamentally bad, or just frequently poorly implemented.
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  2. #242
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    WHen done well, you still focus on the gameplay at hand. I might find the demo for the latest God of War to be QUITE underwhelming, but it does QTE-flashes pretty well (but, like the rest of God of War, mostly sucks at the actual use of them). Square is on the left side of the screen, circle is on the right, x is on the bottom, triangle the top, L1 and R1 flash in the middle. Guess where you focus? On the actual spectacle in front of you.
    Your eyes have these things called "lenes" which do something called "focusing" which means when you put the bulk of you attention on one thing, you're not paying as much attention to the others. It's not the best way to show off the animation team's hard work.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Its just like when people bitch about subtitles being bad because they distract you. If done "poorly", then yes. They are at the bottom of the screen. But Man on Fire was spectacular in that it used subtitles to keep you focused on Denzel Washington shoving his hand up somebody's poopchute.
    There's a reason why subtitles sometimes don't appear when it's an action sequence. You still do have to focus on them briefly to get what they're saying. Video game QTEs are all about action aren't they?

    And he doesn't do that onscreen. Unless you have some other version of the film.


    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Deepest apologies, I must have mistaken the spamming of facepalm pictures and "ha ha, dragon's lair sucks and you should play it" as something it wasn't.

    And I note you ignored the whole "The entire point of them is to make you feel frantic and have to react quickly" angle :p
    Don't patronize me.

    Is drawing a comparison to something considered an insult? Since when? I didn't like Dragon's Lair but I wasn't putting anyone down for liking it. I'm saying we're past the point in games where the only interaction they allow is pushing a button or two to continue a per-rendered movie. If that is what you're after, then you may as well play that

    And because that's what the entire "game" part of the game is for. If all the action parts are in the cutscenes instead of in the player-controlled sections there's a problem with your game. That's one of the reasons we've been bad-mouthing the CoD games as of late isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    So I take it we are done here? No more discussion, just random spouting? Pity, I enjoy a good discussion on whether a gameplay mechanic is fundamentally bad, or just frequently poorly implemented.
    If you could offer something substantial instead of ad hominon what seems to be "I'll just say the same thing but with different terms", and what can only be described as hyperbole and complete nonsense thrown into a blender maybe we could have one. You can play devil's advocate, but don't be totally nonsensical about it.
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  3. #243
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Your eyes have these things called "lenes" which do something called "focusing" which means when you put the bulk of you attention on one thing, you're not paying as much attention to the others. It's not the best way to show off the animation team's hard work.
    Then we better get rid of every single crosshair. OH, and don't put any shiny effects because then you'll focus there.

    Maybe you are special, but I can still generally see the entire screen, even when I focus. But by putting the center of the "watch here for QTE" crap in the center of the screen, you still see the entire screen.

    Now, when they put it at the bottom of the screen (one of the PC ports of the spider-man movie games did that) I hate it because I am not focusing on the action. But when they put the focus on the action, I pay attention to the action.

    There's a reason why subtitles sometimes don't appear when it's an action sequence. You still do have to focus on them briefly to get what they're saying. Video game QTEs are all about action aren't they?
    Watch Man on Fire. Not the greatest film, but I absolutely love what it does with subtitles. Even pretty active scenes work with them.

    And he doesn't do that onscreen. Unless you have some other version of the film.
    Hmm, come to think of it, I might be thinking of Asses on Fire. :p


    And because that's what the entire "game" part of the game is for. If all the action parts are in the cutscenes instead of in the player-controlled sections there's a problem with your game. That's one of the reasons we've been bad-mouthing the CoD games as of late isn't it?
    Except that games like RE4 and Infamous 2 and MGS4 (the specific games cited) don't put all the action in the cutscenes. They just use QTEs as a way to avoid "cutscene power to the max" as it were.


    If you could offer something substantial instead of ad hominon what seems to be "I'll just say the same thing but with different terms", and what can only be described as hyperbole and complete nonsense thrown into a blender maybe we could have one. You can play devil's advocate, but don't be totally nonsensical about it.
    I can argue the same to you. You just post random stupid image gifs, make not-insulting-at-all-nope-no-siree references, and then say "you are talking nonsense" while pretending that one aspect of gameplay is gameplay and one part isn't.
    Last edited by gundato; 28-02-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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  4. #244
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Your eyes have these things called "lenes" which do something called "focusing" which means when you put the bulk of you attention on one thing, you're not paying as much attention to the others. It's not the best way to show off the animation team's hard work.
    I'm sure your peripheral vision isn't that bad that you can't notice a big PUSH SPACEBAR OR DIE prompt, or movement off to the side of your main focus.

  5. #245
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    It barely counts as gameplay is the thing. They're cutscenes with a command to press a button thrown in. They're a minor nuisance at best and boring and irritating at worst. They're a lazy developer's way of telling the player they wanted to make a movie but were forced to make a game instead.

    I put a stupid gif because that was basically my reaction to that quote. You picked quite literally one of the worst offenders in the "let's make a DVD menu instead of a game" trend. If you found it offensive, then that's a personal problem because there's nothing there to really be offended by unless you think a comic hyperbole is offensive. And there's nothing any of us can do about that.

    And you were talking complete gibberish in that last bit. I don't even know how to react to something as completely nonsensical as that, it's worse than some of the things you said in the Diablo 3 for PS4 thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I'm sure your peripheral vision isn't that bad that you can't notice a big PUSH SPACEBAR OR DIE prompt, or movement off to the side of your main focus.
    Re-read my post about that. I said your focus isn't on the action. It's annoying because your character is doing something interesting, but you can't sit back and enjoy the entire scene. I didn't say, "You can only see the button prompt!" Don't make up words and context where there wasn't any.


    I said before (possibly in another post in this thread) QTEs when used sparingly and in some specific instances can be interesting. The one Gundato described for Infamous is a good example because it's a bit more clever than "Mash buttons until win/loose cutscene". But constantly bombarding players with them and punishing them with insta-death if they're not prepared for them at all times (thanks a lot Resident Evil 4!) makes them tiresome and annoying.
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  6. #246
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    I think that ideally games should not contain cutscenes and that 99% of the game needs to be open to gameplay. You should never restrict or interrupt the play with something as important as story. If anything this makes gameplay and story seem to be two values that are asynchronous at best, and at odds in the worst.
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  7. #247
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    I think that ideally games should not contain cutscenes and that 99% of the game needs to be open to gameplay. You should never restrict or interrupt the play with something as important as story. If anything this makes gameplay and story seem to be two values that are asynchronous at best, and at odds in the worst.
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  8. #248
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    I think that ideally games should not contain cutscenes and that 99% of the game needs to be open to gameplay. You should never restrict or interrupt the play with something as important as story. If anything this makes gameplay and story seem to be two values that are asynchronous at best, and at odds in the worst.
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  9. #249
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You're just a chirpy little source of everything that is wrong today, aren't you?
    Just an opinion, dude. You got a problem with it then lets talk it out.
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  10. #250
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    It barely counts as gameplay is the thing. They're cutscenes with a command to press a button thrown in. They're a minor nuisance at best and boring and irritating at worst. They're a lazy developer's way of telling the player they wanted to make a movie but were forced to make a game instead.
    Assuming the devs want to tell a story (and that is a good thing, last I heard :p), there are inevitably gonna be things they want to do that just aren't reasonable with the "gameplay" engine. They COULD recode everything so that Leon can have one insanely awesome knife fight, or they can just show you the knife fight. That is how gaming worked before the "QTE". The QTE lets them have a bit of both. Done properly, they can get a bit of both. Maybe it isn't the "best" solution, but I think we can agree that it is better to be playing the game rather than watching the game, it is just a question of if the QTE is enough.

    I put a stupid gif because that was basically my reaction to that quote. You picked quite literally one of the worst offenders in the "let's make a DVD menu instead of a game" trend.
    Except it isn't. It is just cited a lot because it was the "first" to have them. Many games, including Fahrenheit, did it before. But RE4 was what made it popular. And then people link to the youtubes that kind of forget the whole context thing where (almost :p) every QTE actually makes sense in the context of the normal controls. Done properly, it is akin to those "nice touches" some games add (like Drake bracing himself against a wall while turning a corner or the action button letting you vault over a fence in an FPS).

    And you were talking complete gibberish in that last bit. I don't even know how to react to something as completely nonsensical as that, it's worse than some of the things you said in the Diablo 3 for PS4 thread.
    You are the person randomly claiming it "isn't gameplay" and should be skipped or shouldn't hurt. So I can easily argue that throwing grenades isn't gameplay or romancing Tali isn't gameplay.

    In a lot of ways, it reminds me of what that Bioware writer suggested by having a gameplay difficulty that actually skips the "gameplay" and focuses on the story. A lot of people gave flak for that, but it is the exact same concept.

    "I find this method of gameplay to interfere with my experience too much, I want to be able to skip it"
    Whether that be ME3's combat (which DID ramp up a lot once you reach Earth) or your difficulty with shanking the hell out of KRauser.


    Re-read my post about that. I said your focus isn't on the action. It's annoying because your character is doing something interesting, but you can't sit back and enjoy the entire scene. I didn't say, "You can only see the button prompt!" Don't make up words and context where there wasn't any.
    That is just it. Think of it as a circle with the buttons on it (because it is :p). The circle is the size of the entire screen, but it is centered at the center of the screen (where the action occurs). If you are "smart", you want to be able to see everything so you don't get tripped up when you switch from square to B. So you focus on the center of that circle. And that is where the action is.

    THAT is why I cite RE4 as getting it right. It had a few hiccups, but it was still largely a case of using the buttons to keep you focused on the gameplay.


    I said before (possibly in another post in this thread) QTEs when used sparingly and in some specific instances can be interesting. The one Gundato described for Infamous is a good example because it's a bit more clever than "Mash buttons until win/loose cutscene". But constantly bombarding players with them and punishing them with insta-death if they're not prepared for them at all times (thanks a lot Resident Evil 4!) makes them tiresome and annoying.
    That is just it, you SHOULD be prepared for them at all times. That is the point. It is just like how Dark Souls fills the world with traps and what not. It keeps you on edge. You repeatedly cite having to frantically switch from triangle to X when fighting Krauser. Well, Leon is frantically trying to out-knife someone of comparable skill and VERY mutated (I forget what flavor of virus Krauser had, I just call it all T-Virus or Las Plagas :p) opponent. The player shouldn't be relaxed and eating cheetos while the character is fighting for his or her life.
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  11. #251
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Just an opinion, dude.
    As was mine, buddy. As was mine.
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  12. #252
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    The RE4 knife fight was a little awkward, as all QTEs of that sort are, but I enjoyed it. It gets round a key problem of having your character do awesome things in cut-scenes that you can't do in regular gameplay, which removes all feeling of agency from the player and frustrates rather than impresses. That little packet of interaction and consequence is just enough to let me feel involved enough to enjoy the (really quite excellent) animation.

    It's a very nicely paced scene, consisting of some plot critical dialogue punctuated by bursts of combat. Good for tension. Give me the QTE rather than talking heads.

    This is a very personal preference, and this is one of those things that can perfectly legitimately rub you the wrong way. It's a fine example of the type, though.

  13. #253
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Assuming the devs want to tell a story (and that is a good thing, last I heard :p), there are inevitably gonna be things they want to do that just aren't reasonable with the "gameplay" engine. They COULD recode everything so that Leon can have one insanely awesome knife fight, or they can just show you the knife fight. That is how gaming worked before the "QTE". The QTE lets them have a bit of both. Done properly, they can get a bit of both. Maybe it isn't the "best" solution, but I think we can agree that it is better to be playing the game rather than watching the game, it is just a question of if the QTE is enough.
    The problem is:

    a) There's too many of them
    b) Fail any part of them and you start over again from the beginning of the scene, not just take damage or get a different result
    c) There's too many of them


    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Except it isn't. It is just cited a lot because it was the "first" to have them. Many games, including Fahrenheit, did it before. But RE4 was what made it popular. And then people link to the youtubes that kind of forget the whole context thing where (almost :p) every QTE actually makes sense in the context of the normal controls. Done properly, it is akin to those "nice touches" some games add (like Drake bracing himself against a wall while turning a corner or the action button letting you vault over a fence in an FPS).
    The words "worst" and "first" do not mean the same thing.

    It'd be one thing if it had a few sprinkled in, but they made up a big part of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    You are the person randomly claiming it "isn't gameplay" and should be skipped or shouldn't hurt. So I can easily argue that throwing grenades isn't gameplay or romancing Tali isn't gameplay.
    And there you go off again flying into "hyberbole without the humor" world. There's a difference between a play-initiated action that you can even repeat and "Press X to win!" popping up on the screen. This is just the kind of sentence that makes a facepalm gif completely appropriate. Because there's few other suitable responses for this stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    In a lot of ways, it reminds me of what that Bioware writer suggested by having a gameplay difficulty that actually skips the "gameplay" and focuses on the story. A lot of people gave flak for that, but it is the exact same concept.
    So it would basically be QTE the Game. I'm guessing this is most appealing to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    "I find this method of gameplay to interfere with my experience too much, I want to be able to skip it"
    Whether that be ME3's combat (which DID ramp up a lot once you reach Earth) or your difficulty with shanking the hell out of KRauser.
    I find it interferes with my experience because it's not actually gameplay so much as it is "Press X to win now!" When you actually do fight Krauser it's gameplay. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you just don't like video games that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    That is just it. Think of it as a circle with the buttons on it (because it is :p). The circle is the size of the entire screen, but it is centered at the center of the screen (where the action occurs). If you are "smart", you want to be able to see everything so you don't get tripped up when you switch from square to B. So you focus on the center of that circle. And that is where the action is.
    Or developers could make an encounter a gameplay event where the player has control and has them do things instead of "Press X to continue movie".

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    THAT is why I cite RE4 as getting it right. It had a few hiccups, but it was still largely a case of using the buttons to keep you focused on keeping the movies going.
    Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    That is just it, you SHOULD be prepared for them at all times. That is the point. It is just like how Dark Souls fills the world with traps and what not. It keeps you on edge. You repeatedly cite having to frantically switch from triangle to X when fighting Krauser. Well, Leon is frantically trying to out-knife someone of comparable skill and VERY mutated (I forget what flavor of virus Krauser had, I just call it all T-Virus or Las Plagas :p) opponent. The player shouldn't be relaxed and eating cheetos while the character is fighting for his or her life.
    Or I could be prepared for an actual fight in which I can control my character since it is a video game I'm supposed to be playing to break out as soon as the cutscene ends. Otherwise I can just push buttons on a controller when watching a movie and pretend I'm activating QTEs. It'd be the same thing basically.
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  14. #254
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Re-read my post about that. I said your focus isn't on the action. It's annoying because your character is doing something interesting, but you can't sit back and enjoy the entire scene. I didn't say, "You can only see the button prompt!" Don't make up words and context where there wasn't any.
    Okay I accept that you were talking about how they distract from the action, but seriously your post specifically mentions eyes, lenses, and focusing. Your peripheral vision can't be that bad that you can't appreciate what's going on, especially since a lot of the prompts are placed near important parts of action.

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    Dark Souls' "Oh, shit, that demon is ten times bigger than me and he is running at me with full speed swinging his badass huge hammer, what I'm gonna do?! No way, I can't kill him, it looks just impossible, OMGIMDYING!" tension.

    vs

    Resident Evil 4 "press random buttons when prompted to not beign forced to reload your savegame" tension.

    I wonder which is better and more gamey...

  16. #256
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Okay I accept that you were talking about how they distract from the action, but seriously your post specifically mentions eyes, lenses, and focusing. Your peripheral vision can't be that bad that you can't appreciate what's going on, especially since a lot of the prompts are placed near important parts of action.
    I was trying to avoid being the pedant, but since you're both so intent on being wrong I can't keep quiet any more.

    Focus is what your eyes do to perceive objects that are at different distances from your eyes. Your eyes have to contract the muscles around the lenses to look at something directly in front of you, and relax them to look at something far off in the distance. None of this happens when you're looking at a monitor that's sitting a fixed distance away from your eyes.

    Peripheral vision is every part of your visual field that isn't the fovea (center). You can see the most detail in the center of your visual field; anything outside that is vague and low-res, so to say. Try looking at the start button and read this post from your peripheral vision. This is impossible on a decent-sized monitor. Sometimes your brain even fills in your peripheral vision with things that aren't there, or blanks over things that are actually there. Regardless, anyone should be able to perceive a button prompt at the edge of the screen even when they're not looking at it, because your peripheral vision is especially sensitive to movement and sudden changes. Which brings me to...

    Locus of attention
    , which is what Shooop actually means when he says 'focus'. You can direct your attention to a peripheral part of your visual field without actually moving your eyes there. However, because games are not behavioural experiments, you're not always looking at the exact center of the screen. Your attention is likely directed to wherever you're looking at the time. A button prompt is likely to grab your attention when it appears, causing you to move your eyes to it.

    And if you ask me, whether QTE's make cutscenes less enjoyable is entirely subjective and the role of visual attention is completely irrelevant. If you like to sit back and soak in the sights, great. If you like to maintain the tension during cutscenes by having a button to mash, also great. If you like to pointlessly argue about one in favour of the other, knock yourself out.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    I think that ideally games should not contain cutscenes and that 99% of the game needs to be open to gameplay. You should never restrict or interrupt the play with something as important as story. If anything this makes gameplay and story seem to be two values that are asynchronous at best, and at odds in the worst.
    This is interesting (And the first interesting thing in the last two pages of nonsense I just read). Have there been any games that came close to this?

    Multiplayer doesn't count.

  18. #258
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    I was trying to avoid being the pedant, but since you're both so intent on being wrong I can't keep quiet any more.
    Yeah thanks LTK, I'm aware of all this, but being a pedant with med terms here is fairly pointless and seems a bit snippy, and that's coming from someone in healthcare. I see no problem with using common terms in a case like this, except for when Shooop decided to confuse the issue by mentioning eyes.

  19. #259
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    The problem I've always had with QTEs is that the buttons never make sense. I suppose if it was done well I could have fun with QTEs (probably not) but instead "Push this random button" it should be a QTE that wants me to "punch" or something that I have a specific button for. So when the game needs me to punch during a QTE, I just press the punch button, not some random button.

    Cutscenes are okay for dialogue, but my peeve is when the biggest action comes through a cutscene. I can't say how many times I've played a game with some huge explosive cut scene and I thought, "Let me play that part!"

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    ^Dark Souls?
    It have cutscenes/gameplay time ratio like 1/100 maybe? It still have better story than most of other games. Or maybe not better story, but better way to tell this story. It do not tries to be a movie interrupted with that silly thing called gameplay.
    It tries so hard to be a GAME and it's doing it great. It even have multiplayer justified by story and lore.
    Dark Souls is the perfect example how to make games that are pure games and not 50% games and 50% movies.

    EDIT: That was reply to khaz latest post.

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