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  1. #301
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    No Russian had just as much, if not more, talk than the nuke scene from CoD4 (remember Russians banning the game and all the hoopla surrounding that mission). Both scenes are just shallow attempts at shocking, and it worked in both cases. It was shocking, controversial, and everyone was talking about it - but neither scene had practically any value beyond that. And if people remember the nuke then it's just because they didn't expect what they thought to be the protagonist of the game to die so early.

    The truly memorable missions and moments from COD4 were the sniper mission (the one in Pripyat) and the gunship mission.
    No Russian got as much talk because it was both much more shocking to joe everyman and it was leaked and absorbed by the media. I don't remember any non-gaming media discussing the atomic bomb scene in MW1. But when the likes of Fox, Sky News etc all got wind of a game that had you mowing down innocents in an airport they went crazy for it.

    I get it, you didn't like the scene, but the scene had it's reason for being there.

  2. #302
    Network Hub EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The absolute worst of them is where, if the guy dies while under your care, boom: Game failed. However, if the guy lives​ while under your care, he dies a plot death ten seconds later.
    Star Wraith 4 (I think) had a double whammy of this. Not only did the slow, weak, unarmed, dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers transports you were escorting supposed to suicide into the enemy mothership immediately afterwards, but it was also unnecessary because EVERYONE in the game has a quick, efficient, easy-to-use WARP DRIVE (an integral part of the gameplay no less!) which has been shown to do hilarious amounts of damage elsewhere in the series. So, able to splatter the most powerful fighters in the game, but can`t be used for ramming, or tactical maneouvers? Seems legit.

  3. #303
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    But the scene had it's reason for being there.
    Okay, what was the reason to execute the scene in such a fashion if not shock-value? I personally cannot think of another.

    And I actually like CoD4, IMO it's the last good CoD, but the game is not really aiming to be some high-brow expressive artistic endeavor (and it doesn't have to be).
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  4. #304
    Lack of customisable difficulty. A recent example would be Hitman Absolution. I would really like to be able to play the game with the amount of enemies present in the Expert difficulty, but without the incredibly paranoid AI that detects you fairly quickly.
    Additionally, when AI characters are about to explain something but they don't, because the main character is considered to be an unintelligent brute.
    "Oh hey, i am going to do something clever. I would explain it but you wouldn't understand"
    Last edited by YeOldeSnake; 04-03-2013 at 09:32 PM.

  5. #305
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Okay, what was the reason to execute the scene in such a fashion if not shock-value? I personally cannot think of another.

    And I actually like CoD4, IMO it's the last good CoD, but the game is not really aiming to be some high-brow expressive artistic endeavor (and it doesn't have to be).
    To build a story. To put you in a mindset. To establish the scenario. You know those scenes in movies where nothing seems to be going on, maybe it's in a bar and its just two characters talking, it does what those guys are doing and sets up the story.

  6. #306
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Yeah. While the Modern Warfares definitely go for shock value, I also give them credit for making it work in 1 and 3 (2's "No Russian" was just trash).

    MW1: You get to basically be "The Marines of Eagle-Land" from every single movie, and it feels DAMNED good to do it. Going back for the downed chopper pilot is also really fun. And then, you get nuked. It doesn't make what you did any less heroic/awesome, and it sets the stage for the rest of the series as a whole. Up until then the game is basically a "Marines save the world", but it rapidly descends into almost a warm beer style spy series where the "heroes" are pretty despicable human beings who aren't above torture, assassination, and genocide in the name of "the greater good". And, it gets bonus points for a pretty brutal hopespot as you live the final seconds of the character's life (Pvt Ramirez, if memory serves)

    MW2: No Russian's biggest problem was that the level itself was bad. I understand what they were going for ("What will you do in the name of the greater good?") but they failed horribly for three reasons:
    1. It is the worst level in the entire history of CoD. You are walking slowly and your enemies don't do anything
    2. They give you the illusion of choice, which just serves to drive home how little choice you have.
    3. It sets up the stupidest reason for a war ever (the US government would have instantly said "he is a rogue terrorist" and we wouldn't have gone to war with Russia, especially since the other corpses WERE Russian)

    MW3: This one worked again. It further establishes Makarov as a sick bastard AND it is a really fun level. Shooting up the subway while on the back of a pickup truck and the great gunfights make that one of the better levels/set pieces in the series. And, the "shock" scene is actually pretty painful (in a good way) as you watch a simple family on vacation die because of the rivalry between Price and Makarov.


    Not 100% related, but I think it is still a good article on the subject http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2013/0...value-of-grit/

    Abercrombie subscribes to the Martin school of "Let's kill viewpoint characters and nice people", but I find he does a much better job of not having "shock for shock's sake". And, overall, his (POV character) bodycount is MUCH lower and they generally work well (The Heroes had a few chapters that were nothing BUT POV characters dying, but even that worked well to depict the battle).

    Just be careful reading an Abercrombie book: The man does not know what a flatbow is and it is REALLY annoying :p
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  7. #307
    To be honest, Modern Warfare's nuke segment wasn't anywhere near as controversial as the MW2 and MW3 segments. Its shock value was mainly directed towards the player, as it came off as a huge unexpected surprise that made the story somewhat darker, and briefly touched upon the pointless nature of war. That is what made it incredibly good and it was not yet another attempt to promote the game by making it appear offensive.

  8. #308
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    To build a story. To put you in a mindset. To establish the scenario. You know those scenes in movies where nothing seems to be going on, maybe it's in a bar and its just two characters talking, it does what those guys are doing and sets up the story.
    I get what you're saying and I agree to a certain point, because the nuke does set things in motion plot wise - even though the segment itself (and the character you're playing) is completely irrelevant to the greater story of the game.

    But ultimately point well taken. I still think it's main purpose is shock-value though :P
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  9. #309
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Modern Warfare's nuke segment also works as subtle criticism for the Iraq war (since the entire invasion mimics it up untill that point): In the end, a lot of marines died without actually having achieved anything.

    However, a nuke works a little bit faster then a lot of IEDs. So they went with the nuke.

  10. #310
    Network Hub EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeSnake View Post
    Additionally, when AI characters are about to explain something but they don't, because the main character is considered to be an unintelligent brute.
    "Oh hey, i am going to do something clever. I would explain it but you wouldn't understand"
    This, a thousand times. The thing that pissed me off most about the codex in Mass Effect was them never going into full OCD nerd-mode, just kind of leaving it half-explained. Dammit Bioware, I can`t argue with people on Stardestroyer.net unless I know the power draw of a low-mass generator running at full power in FTL mode. But then again, I`m not sure anyone at BW is that crazy. Still, if you`re going to do something of the sort, just use the Star Wars ICS as your basic source of inspiration. The small but devoted community of uber-nerds will be quite thankful.

  11. #311
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    This, a thousand times. The thing that pissed me off most about the codex in Mass Effect was them never going into full OCD nerd-mode, just kind of leaving it half-explained. Dammit Bioware, I can`t argue with people on Stardestroyer.net unless I know the power draw of a low-mass generator running at full power in FTL mode. But then again, I`m not sure anyone at BW is that crazy. Still, if you`re going to do something of the sort, just use the Star Wars ICS as your basic source of inspiration. The small but devoted community of uber-nerds will be quite thankful.
    They give just enough tidbits to pique the interest of the OCD - like how far you can go in a day with regular FTL travel and how long you can go without dispelling the excess heat in some poor planet's atmosphere - but don't ever really work on the implications of these data points, resulting in looooooots of wild mass guessing.
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  12. #312
    Network Hub EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Yup. I remember back in the day, scratching my head at the hilariously low dreadnought firepower figures. Someone at BW forgot to explore the implications of a technology that can turn a AA battery into a planet-killer, methinks.

  13. #313
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Oh, I love people that tries to explain sci-fi stuff with scientific principles. It always ends up being a learning experience.
    I remember an old thread on the Beyond The Red Line Battlestar Galactica mod about the Viper's atmospheric flight capabilities that went on forever. It was simply amazing. I learned a lot of stuff (and later forgot all of it, obviously).

  14. #314
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    I'm going to defend No Russian. It made you really think about just how much you (should) identify with your character in a game and why it is that it is much more shocking to put the player in the character of a terrorist. Of course, most people skipped the thinking part and went straight onto enraged, as usual.

  15. #315
    Network Hub EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    Oh, I love people that tries to explain sci-fi stuff with scientific principles. It always ends up being a learning experience.
    I remember an old thread on the Beyond The Red Line Battlestar Galactica mod about the Viper's atmospheric flight capabilities that went on forever. It was simply amazing. I learned a lot of stuff (and later forgot all of it, obviously).
    Curtis Saxton wanted to say hi, but overshot the thread by a few orders of magnitude.

  16. #316
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    It pissess me off when another game with a classic title comes out. Sim City, X Com, Syndicate, Alien vs Predator, Tomb Raider. For me it's like crapping on a good old game and trying to rewrite history. It's the identical name that really gets me.
    pass

  17. #317
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Movement based on the position of the camera rather than the character. The camera position then, of course, changes over and over again. Just played a bit of Heavy Rain on the PS3, and I can't count the number of times I've had to spin around, run into a wall or desk because of that annoying design 'feature'.
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  18. #318
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    It pissess me off when another game with a classic title comes out. Sim City, X Com, Syndicate, Alien vs Predator, Tomb Raider. For me it's like crapping on a good old game and trying to rewrite history. It's the identical name that really gets me.
    The trend seems taken from the film industry

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    Movement based on the position of the camera rather than the character. The camera position then, of course, changes over and over again. Just played a bit of Heavy Rain on the PS3, and I can't count the number of times I've had to spin around, run into a wall or desk because of that annoying design 'feature'.
    Hmm, don't remember having that problem in Heavy Rain, but ran into it a lot in Grim Fandango. The better implementations keep you going in the same direction after the camera change if you don't move the joystick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    The trend seems taken from the film industry
    And it's just as bad there. I know that the film industry is used to doing re-releases of the same exact film, and thus keep the same name. But since the game industry is already used to secondary titles, and most of these games are not re-releases of the classics, it makes no sense.

    I know they're trying to re-boot the series or whatever, but there's no reason to assume they can't add an post title to it. They should take example of the recent Batman reboot which was perfectly successful without having to re-use the classic title. Tomb Raider Begins would have worked just as well.

  20. #320
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    At least with a film they make a new film. The gaming industry is like bringing out a new "football" and making it include boats, fishing and snooker so as to be "inventive".

    A change in pacing or play style is ok I guess. I'll not complain about that. It can be a nice refresh to a theme or game.

    I think someone else put it better. Build on the success, don't try to reinvent the success. If you are making a "game" just for the name (or a movie for that matter), then less will result from it. Names are just labels. Franchises just empty numbers. The things they stand for are the real value we attach.

    So "Mario" is valued either for the consistent character or the platforming. This shows in game that follow the character (Paper Mario, Mario cart etc), or the system of play (platforming). Putting "Mario" on an Olympic game, etc may not carry on the value.

    As to my current annoyance with gaming, it's the online requirement. Even the likes of Minecraft needs it. Almost ever game does now. Thankfully some avoid it. Kerbal Space Program only requires the purchase. The rest of the value of being a real customer is in the community, game updates and service they provide. It seems to be about making people want to pay for the product, as suppose to forcing/tricking/coercing/intimidating them to pay. Oh, those other ways work, but what would you rather spend your time doing as a developer or publisher? Chasing pirates, or serving customers? I know what I'd prefer to do as a customer, and it's not filling in endless online forms, constantly checking my internet connection (BT has a habit of sending sledge hammers at my ISP), etc.

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