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  1. #101
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Again, you are comparing comic books being adapted in to movies (not only is it an adaptation of a pre-existing franchise but it is adapter ACROSS MEDIUMS) with old games getting "spiritual successors" today (which stay in the same medium, and they're a NEW IP).

    [...]

    and proceeding with your tunnel-vision arguments.
    I'm sorry, you were making a point but then you tripped over yourself. Would you like to try again?

    Here, another analogy ('cause I like 'em so much,) since you seem to be having trouble making the connection:

    Watterson retired, ending Calvin & Hobbes. As with all popular entities, that void has since been filled with a number of similar syndicated strips, foremost among them Zits by Borgman - indeed, it's comprised of the same subject matter, the same tone, and similar art style... except not as funny or biting. Funny, that.
    Last edited by Nalano; 20-02-2013 at 07:32 AM.
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  2. #102
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I'm sorry, you were making a point but then you tripped over yourself. Would you like to try again?

    Here, another analogy ('cause I like 'em so much,) since you seem to be having trouble making the connection:

    Watterson retired, ending Calvin & Hobbes. As with all popular entities, that void has since been filled with a number of similar syndicated strips, foremost among them Zits by Borgman - indeed, it's comprised of the same subject matter, the same tone, and similar art style... except not as funny or biting. Funny, that.
    This guy... Can't reply to a single thing but never misses the opportunity to insult the intelligence of the other.

    Fine then. How about you actually reply to something instead of butchering a whole post, recreating a Frankenstein that somehow fits your view and then replying with argumentation that is starting to pretty much mirror the "God of the gaps" theory? And as with the real "God of the gaps" discussing it is just a futile endeavor because you will always find a smaller hole to crawl in to - so I quit. You "win". Congratulations!

    You also qualify for the "young Earth creationist debate team". Hurrah! XD
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  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    I think he's just trying to explain through analogy, not insult.
    But your post? Borderline, perhaps?

  4. #104
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    Neither of them are managing to be excellent, although ado crossed a few more lines in that last post. "Would you like to try again?" is obnoxious and infuriating whenever it appears, however.

  5. #105
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    I think he's just trying to explain through analogy, not insult.
    But your post? Borderline, perhaps?
    Insult may be a strong word but he certainly takes jabs with annoying regularity. And I do not see what was borderline insulting in my reply... The God of the gaps remark is a fitting one since his analogy is "mutating" for a few posts now.

    And yes, the lack of excellence is why I bowed out of that silly rhetoric.
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  6. #106
    Activated Node lithander's Avatar
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    At least I learned a new word from following this "discussion"... and what a beautiful one it is! :) ... obnoxious... do people really use that in everyday talk? obnoggshizz

  7. #107
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    If you're on the Internet it's applicable daily, for sure.

  8. #108
    Network Hub Dead Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithander View Post
    At least I learned a new word from following this "discussion"... and what a beautiful one it is! :) ... obnoxious... do people really use that in everyday talk? obnoggshizz
    I know I do. I encounter such people everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    If you're on the Internet it's applicable daily, for sure.
    Better term for people on the intrawebz: Benighted.

    Write it down, it's a good one.

  9. #109
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    The principal problem with gaming as a medium is that there's no established hardware format (Vs film or books), so everyone is constantly reinventing the wheel all the time, and this is a tremendous time/money sink that directly impacts the extent of what can be made.

    Think about what could be a achieved if Rockstar for instance made GTA IV open source to other developers/third parties to use and adapt as a backdrop to make their own games. It's almost criminal to think about how underutilized the entirety of that virtual city is. There would exist opportunities to create all sorts of interactive experiences, from all sorts of genres.
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  10. #110
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    The principal problem with gaming as a medium is that there's no established hardware format (Vs film or books), so everyone is constantly reinventing the wheel all the time, and this is a tremendous time/money sink that directly impacts the extent of what can be made.
    But wouldn't you say that this hardware variety also breeds design variety? Like say, Elite Beat Agents... I'm sure that that game wouldn't exist if it was not for the DS's wacky hardware design. And what about RTS games, would they exist without the mouse+keyboard input?

    I think hardware variety is quite good for games, and once we all start using the same range of hardware (which is happening with this coming console generation) we will also see less and less games with "out of the box" designs.
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  11. #111
    Activated Node lithander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    so everyone is constantly reinventing the wheel all the time, and this is a tremendous time/money sink that directly impacts the extent of what can be made.


    I agree with this part. Just not with your conclusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Think about what could be a achieved if Rockstar for instance made GTA IV open source to other developers/third parties to use and adapt as a backdrop to make their own games. It's almost criminal to think about how underutilized the entirety of that virtual city is. There would exist opportunities to create all sorts of interactive experiences, from all sorts of genres.
    The GTA IV engine is optimized for one thing: delivering the GTA IV experience. Why would it enable 3rd party devs to do completely new and innovative things with it when it was never designed as 3rd party engine?

    Also I'd guess that 80% of the money it took to make GTA IV went into making GTA IV specific assets. You couldn't use them to make a game in a fantasy genre even if they were open source.

    Even Engines that are optimized for 3rd party use (Unreal 3, Unity) are only liberating if you would not be able to create a custom engine better tailored for the needs of your game. If that would be an option that would be the prefered choice.

    If you want a liberating effect for game developers you need to make it easier to make a game from scratch. The fact that devs have to rely on 3rd party engines (because it is almost impossible to get close to AAA quality without investing tons of time into developing tools and engine tech first) is a constraint.
    Last edited by lithander; 21-02-2013 at 02:06 PM.

  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    But wouldn't you say that this hardware variety also breeds design variety? Like say, Elite Beat Agents... I'm sure that that game wouldn't exist if it was not for the DS's wacky hardware design. And what about RTS games, would they exist without the mouse+keyboard input?
    When I talk about film having a hardware format I'm talking about 35mm becoming a universal approach. When I talk about books having a hardware format I'm talking about the idea of bound pages of paper or vellum (Vs scrolls or clay tablets) becoming the recognized standard. I'm not on about a PS3 vs a PC (they are merely transitory projectors) I'm more eluding to the arrival at a common medium language that all creators can access and operate through with ease in the same way that French people all speak/understand French.

    I think hardware variety is quite good for games, and once we all start using the same range of hardware (which is happening with this coming console generation) we will also see less and less games with "out of the box" designs.
    Hypothetically if system hardware development ended with this present generation do you really think that in 30 years people would still be making games that are simply variations on what has been presently been made up to now, or do you not envisages that whole new realms of opportunity might not arise with the frame of those limitations as developers explored what it was possible to achieve with those limits?
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  13. #113
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    When I talk about film having a hardware format I'm talking about 35mm becoming a universal approach. When I talk about books having a hardware format I'm talking about the idea of bound pages of paper or vellum (Vs scrolls or clay tablets) becoming the recognized standard. I'm not on about a PS3 vs a PC (they are merely transitory projectors) I'm more eluding to the arrival at a common medium language that all creators can access and operate through with ease in the same way that French people all speak/understand French.
    I'm not sure that I follow. Are you talking about a unified software platform to make games in, like a games engine? Or a unified distribution system like DVDs or digital for instance? Or something else...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Hypothetically if system hardware development ended with this present generation do you really think that in 30 years people would still be making games that are simply variations on what has been presently been made up to now, or do you not envisages that whole new realms of opportunity might not arise with the frame of those limitations as developers explored what it was possible to achieve with those limits?
    Actually I think that no matter what happens with the hardware side of things people will always find new designs for games. Like for instance look at Trading Card Games or Board Games. Basically they are all the same on a certain "hardware" level but none of them plays the same, and new and different TCGs and Board Games are coming out every year. So if we do hit a certain hardware ceiling I do not think it's a big deal for games design.

    But I do believe that different hardware does provide different design opportunities and opportunities for new ways to play and enjoy games. And obviously that's why big companies like Nintendo, MS and Valve are experimenting with stuff like motion controls and biometrics and even AR.
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  14. #114
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithander View Post

    If you want a liberating effect for game developers you need to make it easier to make a game from scratch. The fact that devs have to rely on 3rd party engines (because it is almost impossible to get close to AAA quality without investing tons of time into developing tools and engine tech first) is a constraint.
    not sure what your point is here, since 3D engine development has moved past the point where one programmer and one game designer can push out a blockbuster "uber GFX" hit using only their combined efforts. 3D engines have moved past a point it can't return to. The only way two guys can push out a 3D game with an engine built from scratch is if they were making a retro 32-bit style 3D game with low poly models and minimal lighting/shading models. Oh wait! Minecraft.
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  15. #115
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithander View Post
    - snip -
    You're looking at the finger tip instead of where it's pointing.

    I'm using Liberty City as an example of the possibility space of created game assets. In the same way that film studios used common sets for films, and private companies specialize in period costumes. If tomorrow all AAA games used say the unreal engine for example and there was a subcribed skeletal model for avatars, then there would exist more opportunity for this sort of shared asset environment to occur. Rather than reinventing the wheel everytime a new game comes out, development studios would be able to buy in things like locations, vehicles, animations etc in and only need to adapt/create ones specific to their particular game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    I'm not sure that I follow. Are you talking about a unified software platform to make games in, like a games engine? Or a unified distribution system like DVDs or digital for instance? Or something else...
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    But I do believe that different hardware does provide different design opportunities and opportunities for new ways to play and enjoy games. And obviously that's why big companies like Nintendo, MS and Valve are experimenting with stuff like motion controls and biometrics and even AR.
    I don't think any of these things are without their merit, but the plain truth of the matter is I'd say most people are happier to sit on their couch or at their computer and play their games than have to jump around their living rooms waving a peripheral. It's fun for a bit, and good for parties (I've played my fair share of Wii games), but it's also draining after a while.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 21-02-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You're looking at the finger tip instead of where it's pointing.

    I'm using Liberty City as an example of the possibility space of created game assets. In the same way that film studios used common sets for films, and private companies specialize in period costumes. If tomorrow all AAA games used say the unreal engine for example and there was a subcribed skeletal model for avatars, then there would exist more opportunity for this sort of shared asset environment to occur. Rather than reinventing the wheel everytime a new game comes out, development studios would be able to buy in things like locations, vehicles, animations etc in and only need to adapt/create onces specific to their particular game.
    kadayi is right. In the same way that there are set design companies, there should be specialised studios that can take on the level asset design and character design work. That way developers don't have to hire 50 artists and try to find work for them.
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  17. #117
    Activated Node lithander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    not sure what your point is here, since 3D engine development has moved past the point where one programmer and one game designer can push out a blockbuster "uber GFX" hit using only their combined efforts. 3D engines have moved past a point it can't return to. The only way two guys can push out a 3D game with an engine built from scratch is if they were making a retro 32-bit style 3D game with low poly models and minimal lighting/shading models. Oh wait! Minecraft.
    What's my point? The thread started with my TLDR post about how I perceived the industry to be focusing too much on surface values. That I perceive this focus to be a majro problem because it means a constraint. It means that the game designer and the programmer from your example have to make their ideas work with closed-source off-the-shelve engines because that's the only way their game can compete visually with "uber GFX". Your choice of 3rd party technology has a massive effect on what you can and can not aspire to do with your game. And that is my point.
    Minecraft is a good example that small teams don't have to jump the high fidelity train to make a successful game. If Notch would have aimed for AAA graphics there'd be no Minecraft. That is my point.

  18. #118
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithander View Post
    Minecraft is a good example that small teams don't have to jump the high fidelity train to make a successful game. If Notch would have aimed for AAA graphics there'd be no Minecraft. That is my point.
    Notch made a game.

    Let's see if he can make another.
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  19. #119
    Activated Node lithander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You're looking at the finger tip instead of where it's pointing.
    In don't agree with the direction your'e pointing in.

    If you say it's too expensive to make all these high quality assets all the time from scratch, I agree. If the asset is so unimportant for your game that it doesn't warrent the time and energy to create it yourself then why bother with it?

    Why do you need 10.000 polys and 2 MB textures to get the idea of a 'chair' across? I can just say 'chair' and you know exactly what I mean. Books work that way and they can be authored by a single person in a couple hundred of hours.

  20. #120
    Lesser Hivemind Node ado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You're looking at the finger tip instead of where it's pointing.

    I'm using Liberty City as an example of the possibility space of created game assets. In the same way that film studios used common sets for films, and private companies specialize in period costumes. If tomorrow all AAA games used say the unreal engine for example and there was a subcribed skeletal model for avatars, then there would exist more opportunity for this sort of shared asset environment to occur. Rather than reinventing the wheel everytime a new game comes out, development studios would be able to buy in things like locations, vehicles, animations etc in and only need to adapt/create onces specific to their particular game.
    Well game engines like Unreal 3 already fulfill this role to a large extent but I really wouldn't dare to propose that the industry goes beyond that. As in that games share real assets and locations and sets between them.

    This works in films because the viewer does not interact with the set like he would do in a game. If assets where liberally reused in games the players would spot it much easier than say spotting the New York Street set from the Universal backlot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I don't think any of these things are without their merit, but the plain truth of the matter is I'd say most people are happier to sit on their couch or at their computer and play their games than have to jump around their living rooms waving a peripheral. It's fun for a bit, and good for parties (I've played my fair share of Wii games), but it's also draining after a while.
    The thing is that most people are satisfied with what works for them, which doesn't mean that they wouldn't want the Star Trek Holodeck for their games if it was doable. Point being that even though a lot of that experimental hardware might lead to dead ends (like i think motion controls did) we cannot know what benefits may come of it. I personally think that biometrics could really be a cool thing if implemented correctly.
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