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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    To be fair, how much bandwidth does the game need? I can usually play Guild Wars 2 even while other people on the same network are streaming TV or "streaming" movies.
    I don't remember what it was that downloaded during my sessions, but if you kill a monster and walk away just to see its death animation and some actual loot four seconds later so you have to walk back and collect your rewards, the system is clearly broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    But that is kind of the thing. There were people arguing that there was no point in ever making an MMO and look how that genre turned out? There were people who HATED the ribbon and now it is the standard (to the point there are even mods for LibreOffice to add a Ribbon in). Then there is uplay and Windows 8 and assymetric multiplayer that people tend to just say "Yuck" and walk away from.
    Creating an MMO gave birth to a whole new genre of games - the Office 2007 ribbon was about trying a new approach to make working with the product easier for new users and is, at the end of the day, a matter of taste. I still fail to see how adding an always-on requirement to Diablo 3 introduced any benefit to the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    You never know if something is gonna work until you try and, as this thread alone should show, you need to deal with the jackasses who are going to inherently hate it no matter what you do.
    But there are some things that aren't worth trying if everybody and their dog tells you it's a bad idea. I have never tried jumping out of a driving car at 80 mph, and guess what, I won't anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Time will tell if it comes back to the PC. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But rather than assuming the wrost, try being positive. Or, if the game truly is as garbage as everyone says: Who cares?
    It's hard to be positive when looking at Blizzard's recent track record, but you never know indeed.
    - If the sound of Samuel Barber's "Adagio For Strings" makes you think of Kharak burning instead of the Vietnamese jungle, most of your youth happened during the 90s. -

  2. #62
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    Why was there a huge uproar over Diablo 3's initial server issues but Path of Exile's problems are mostly ignored?
    It can't be a question of "but GGG is a small indie developer". The issue is exactly the same: both companies underestimated their server loads. PoE has less than a hundredth of D3's audience. They still failed. How are the situations not comparable?
    Is it because PoE has a couple of hub areas, thus giving the illusion of a MMO, like Guild Wars did back then?
    i think it has something to do with poe not costing $60 or not being the most anticipated game in a decade. one of the two. possibly both.

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    Why was there a huge uproar over Diablo 3's initial server issues but Path of Exile's problems are mostly ignored?
    It can't be a question of "but GGG is a small indie developer". The issue is exactly the same: both companies underestimated their server loads. PoE has less than a hundredth of D3's audience. They still failed. How are the situations not comparable?
    Is it because PoE has a couple of hub areas, thus giving the illusion of a MMO, like Guild Wars did back then?
    The same reason nobody cared that Torchlight (or one of the super-popular indie games of that timeframe) used activation model securom and the like. Because it is someone they like.

    People don't like "the big guy". Thus, they create conspiracies and evil plans and assume they are trying to destroy the world. So they latch on to ANYTHING they can. Sometimes that is good (calling out bad practices), sometimes it is pointless and destroys any credibility.
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting for this to be confirmed because while it could well be true, it could be the lost in translation thing. I know he said offline, but I still think he could be referring to offline coop, rather than the game actually not being connected to the net.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post

    You never know if something is gonna work until you try and, as this thread alone should show, you need to deal with the jackasses who are going to inherently hate it no matter what you do. It is like feeding a baby. At first, that kid won't want anything but a boob. But eventually, it will eat strained peas and later mushy carrots and all that other stuff that is awesome when used as dip for doritos.
    Because this is the Internet and it is crucial to pick holes in someone's analogy rather than try to understand their point and engage with them- my recent experience with a baby is that if you give them plenty of different foods from the start they can be pretty adventurous eaters. Once of the first things mine showed enthusiasm for was sauce from a Thai curry we were eating. Last week, at a little over one year of age, he was happily enjoying unagi roll sushi (eel).

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    I don't remember what it was that downloaded during my sessions, but if you kill a monster and walk away just to see its death animation and some actual loot four seconds later so you have to walk back and collect your rewards, the system is clearly broken.
    Ah, lame. Well, I guess D3 is a lot more susceptible to lag then.

    Creating an MMO gave birth to a whole new genre of games - the Office 2007 ribbon was about trying a new approach to make working with the product easier for new users and is, at the end of the day, a matter of taste. I still fail to see how adding an always-on requirement to Diablo 3 introduced any benefit to the game.
    And an always-on co-op game might introduce a whole new dimension to gaming. Dark Souls sort of does that in that you get one of the nicest and most vibrant communities around with no actual communication between players, and it works in the same sense of random strangers helping you out.

    I haven't played too many MMOs (the only ones in detail being TOR and Guild Wars 2), but I think Guild Wars 2 focus on having a metric crapton of dynamic events is a step in this direction. It encourages everyone to work together by FORCING them to work together. Maybe TOR had this (arguable), maybe not, but I know I almost never bothered to say "Hey" to someone because I never knew what they were doing. Instead of having an orange quest in my upper right that says "They too are grabbing baby slugs to feed to a quaggan"

    Did they have an ulterior motive? Yeah. But conceptually, the idea of "forced" drop-in coop is great. It builds a sense of community and builds toward the social utopia that Sony wants for the PS4

    But there are some things that aren't worth trying if everybody and their dog tells you it's a bad idea. I have never tried jumping out of a driving car at 80 mph, and guess what, I won't anytime soon.
    MMOs are popular
    People stomach steam drm
    Everyone loves Demon/Dark Souls co-op

    I don't really see how Blizzard's approach is inherently wrong. I think they needed to build up to it, but the cover story for their DRM makes a lot of sense and follows industry trends.

    It's hard to be positive when looking at Blizzard's recent track record, but you never know indeed.
    What is their track record?

    Made the MMO that is the gold standard (GW2 is better :p)
    Consistently make games everyone loves (even Starcraft 2 is pretty well received)

    The ONLY real blemish they have is Diablo 3. But apparently one screw-up is a "track record" that means they must never be tolerated again!!!! And people wonder why devs/publishers don't care about "PC gamer loyalty"
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  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Ah, lame. Well, I guess D3 is a lot more susceptible to lag then.
    It is, though it seemed to work fine if the connection was good (and you could login to their servers).

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And an always-on co-op game might introduce a whole new dimension to gaming. Dark Souls sort of does that in that you get one of the nicest and most vibrant communities around with no actual communication between players, and it works in the same sense of random strangers helping you out.

    I haven't played too many MMOs (the only ones in detail being TOR and Guild Wars 2), but I think Guild Wars 2 focus on having a metric crapton of dynamic events is a step in this direction. It encourages everyone to work together by FORCING them to work together. Maybe TOR had this (arguable), maybe not, but I know I almost never bothered to say "Hey" to someone because I never knew what they were doing. Instead of having an orange quest in my upper right that says "They too are grabbing baby slugs to feed to a quaggan"

    Did they have an ulterior motive? Yeah. But conceptually, the idea of "forced" drop-in coop is great. It builds a sense of community and builds toward the social utopia that Sony wants for the PS4.
    I wouldn't necessarily throw around the word "utopia", but dynamic events where one of the best features of Warhammer Online, and I was glad Guild Wars 2 recycled this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    MMOs are popular
    People stomach steam drm
    Everyone loves Demon/Dark Souls co-op

    I don't really see how Blizzard's approach is inherently wrong. I think they needed to build up to it, but the cover story for their DRM makes a lot of sense and follows industry trends.
    More people would probably agree if Blizzard's approach would have added anything of significance to the overall package rather than being an excuse for backdoor DRM and milking users in the RMAH.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    What is their track record?

    Made the MMO that is the gold standard (GW2 is better :p)
    Consistently make games everyone loves (even Starcraft 2 is pretty well received)

    The ONLY real blemish they have is Diablo 3. But apparently one screw-up is a "track record" that means they must never be tolerated again!!!! And people wonder why devs/publishers don't care about "PC gamer loyalty"
    StarCraft 2 was one long tutorial for the multiplayer mode. ;) I will start tolerating them again when they prove they have learned from the mess that was Diablo 3's online mode. Telling people that their game wouldn't work without an internet connection and then announcing that they magically thought of some way to introduce offline playing in the PS4 version doesn't really raise my confidence in them.
    - If the sound of Samuel Barber's "Adagio For Strings" makes you think of Kharak burning instead of the Vietnamese jungle, most of your youth happened during the 90s. -

  8. #68
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    Why was there a huge uproar over Diablo 3's initial server issues but Path of Exile's problems are mostly ignored?
    Because how many people play Path of Exile compared to Diablo 3?

    More people playing = more people having problems and therefore more people complaining about problems.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Take MS Office and "The Ribbon". EVERYONE hated it when it came out, and MS basically said "Piss off and try it". And Lo and behold, the Ribbon is actually a much more intuitive interface and now everyone except the people who memorized all the menus loves it.
    Not really, it's still a bag of shite, people have adapted to it, but it's still ridiculously common to see people googling how to get to a bloody option in Excel. I suspect very few people indeed 'love' it.

  10. #70
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    Like gundato, I take a slightly less cynical view of Blizzard in regards to D3. It's not that piracy prevention wasn't high on the agenda, but I also think they really hoped that they were providing adequate benefits to the player to make the online thing worthwhile, with fast, easy, seamless multiplayer and fast, secure trading, as well as taking the black market out of the picture. Duping and stat hacking become impossible. These are worthwhile things. They aren't worthwhile enough to justify the requirement. ARPGs, while I'm sure they're fun with friends, are fundamentally solo games as designed, and hoping won't make it otherwise, if the devs are unwilling to change the focus of the game.

    Something that I think gets lost in the furor over the online requirement is that despite some large flaws the game is obviously crafted carefully and with love.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    More people would probably agree if Blizzard's approach would have added anything of significance to the overall package rather than being an excuse for backdoor DRM and milking users in the RMAH.
    I think the implementation was weak, but the concept was still sound. It is just that people decided to focus on it being horrible DRM and ignored everything else.

    But you are right. They buggered up the implementation, so it will be up to someone else to try again.



    StarCraft 2 was one long tutorial for the multiplayer mode. ;) I will start tolerating them again when they prove they have learned from the mess that was Diablo 3's online mode. Telling people that their game wouldn't work without an internet connection and then announcing that they magically thought of some way to introduce offline playing in the PS4 version doesn't really raise my confidence in them.
    "when they prove they have learned from the mess that was Diablo 3's online mode"
    Isn't that what this shows (assuming it is true)? They are doing exactly what people wanted, they just haven't officially said if they are propagating that fix.
    Last edited by gundato; 22-02-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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  12. #72
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    Something that I think gets lost in the furor over the online requirement is that despite some large flaws the game is obviously crafted carefully and with love.
    what's also lost is the concept of "options". there was no defensible reason given as to why an offline mode wasn't an option. even shitty trendynet managed to put out an offline mode for dungeon defenders to run alongside the official, online-one mod.

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    "when they prove they have learned from the mess that was Diablo 3's online mode"
    Isn't that what this shows (assuming it is true)? They are doing exactly what people wanted, they just haven't officially said if they are propagating that fix.
    When that version arrives on PC, with no more online-only single player, *then* I will share that sentiment.



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  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    So its not "they need to learn from their mistakes" it is "Fuck them, I want this and I want it now"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider Jerusalem View Post
    what's also lost is the concept of "options". there was no defensible reason given as to why an offline mode wasn't an option. even shitty trendynet managed to put out an offline mode for dungeon defenders to run alongside the official, online-one mod.
    Honestly, "options" might be a bad idea. In many ways, TOR provided "options" by allowing you to play almost the entire MMO in singleplayer. End result was that most players never interacted with anyone, ignored flashpoints (group dungeons), and basically played it as a subscription-model cRPG. And without that community, later areas became hell and players dropped like flies.

    For any multiplayer-oriented title (and yes, Diablo 3 was a multiplayer-oriented title. Maybe Diablo 2 wasn't, but 3 sure was), you need a community. Having a strong offline/SP component kind of kills the community.
    Last edited by gundato; 22-02-2013 at 08:49 PM.
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  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    So its not "they need to learn from their mistakes" it is "Fuck them, I want this and I want it now"?
    I don't see how you would read that from what I wrote, but whatever.
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  16. #76
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Honestly, "options" might be a bad idea. In many ways, TOR provided "options" by allowing you to play almost the entire MMO in singleplayer. End result was that most players never interacted with anyone, ignored flashpoints (group dungeons), and basically played it as a subscription-model cRPG. And without that community, later areas became hell and players dropped like flies.
    you can't compare a subscription-based mmo with a one-time payment, 4-player maximum, arpg. it's apples and french colonial history; quite hard to draw a parallel there.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    For any multiplayer-oriented title (and yes, Diablo 3 was a multiplayer-oriented title. Maybe Diablo 2 wasn't, but 3 sure was), you need a community. Having a strong offline/SP component kind of kills the community.
    not really. diablo 3 was /forced/ into being multiplayer title, rather than multiplayer being fundamental to its existence. and i feel like you killed your own (strange) argument by bringing up diablo 2, a game with a very strong offline/sp component that has had a vibrant community for more than a decade.

  17. #77
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    I think if you, as a person, are very strong against weak people, but shows as servile and very weak against strong people, you are a petty tyrant. Blizzard is a petty tyrant.

    Is easy to fuck PC gamers over, because we give a lot of freedom to publishers. but since Is harder to do the same against console gamers, sudenly is Ok to make the game work offline.

    I, of course, hope everybody get a good version of the game and enjoy it. But I still feel like Blizzard deserve our worst opinions after this. Bliz is giving us shit (forced online mode) because can give us shit, not because any other rationalization.

  18. #78
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    "Something else we're adding is local co-op as well as online
    Really? Wow.
    Yeah, its new"

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  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    I don't see how you would read that from what I wrote, but whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    When that version arrives on PC, with no more online-only single player, *then* I will share that sentiment.
    Basically "When they do it for me, I'll be okay with it"


    Quote Originally Posted by Spider Jerusalem View Post
    you can't compare a subscription-based mmo with a one-time payment, 4-player maximum, arpg. it's apples and french colonial history; quite hard to draw a parallel there.
    People considered Guild Wars 1 an MMO even though it was basically the Diablo (2) model.

    If you want to argue apples and pears, sure. Both are fruits and both go very well with a sandwich in a brown paper bag.

    But in all seriousness, my point was more about building (by force) a community and trying something new. LOTS of stuff seems like a stupid idea to some people, and the notoriously fickle gamers may even hate it, but they learn to love it. And, lots of recent MMOs that have tried to cater to the "singleplayer gamer" have failed because they didn't build up a community.


    not really. diablo 3 was /forced/ into being multiplayer title, rather than multiplayer being fundamental to its existence. and i feel like you killed your own (strange) argument by bringing up diablo 2, a game with a very strong offline/sp component that has had a vibrant community for more than a decade.
    Whereas Diablo 1 and 2 were naturally evolved into ARPGs with multiplayer components. And Starcraft started life as a first person shooter but through the grace of Xenu became a micromanagement simulator

    Seriously, get over it. You don't like the direction they took, but it is still the direction they took. The GAME Diablo 3 is a mulitplayer game. Maybe it didn't have to be, maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. Ergo, because htey decided to make it multiplayer, being multiplayer is "fundamental to its existence". A lot of people feel that SC: Conviction was too action oriented. That doesn't mean SC: Conviction isn't an action-oriented game, it just might mean it isn't a Splinter Cell game (it totally was, for the record :p).

    And Diablo 2, like most ARPGs, was largely described as "Play it online and/or at the hardest difficulty setting for the best experience", and that is what people have done for the past decade or so.

    Hell, every time someone brings up Borderlands 1 and (generally) bitches about it being "meh", they are told "Play it online". Every time someone says "I can't beat Smough and Ornstein" or "I am a dumbass who keeps walking into a trap", they are told to look for white, orange, and gold signs accordingly. All Blizzard did was force people to play it the way they want you to play it. Was there an ulterior motive? Of course, but they worked it into the gameplay.
    Last edited by gundato; 22-02-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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  20. #80
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    @ Gundato

    You are defending alway online DRM in single player.

    Just a reminder.
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