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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    @ Gundato

    You are defending alway online DRM in single player.

    Just a reminder.
    No. I am defending Blizzard's right to make the game the way they wanted to. I don't LIKE what they did, but I understand that it had the potential to revolutionize the genre. Was there a DRM aspect to it? Of course. But, theoretically, it had the potential to be VERY beneficial to the genre.

    More importantly, I am mocking and questioning everyone who, upon actually seeing that their whinging accomplished something, are bitching even harder at Blizzard.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    See, THIS is why more companies don't bother to "fix their mistakes". Because even when they do, people are going to scream and hate them because HOW DARE THEY LISTEN TO US!!!!
    But they haven't admitted that mistake. Or even fixed it yet. The real test will be in how the console offline version is balanced. Remember the AH was 'necessary' as the game was balanced around it, if the console version is rebalanced for offline that's one thing. If it's just the same game and in fact the balance is still fine with no AH, that's something else.

    That said, I'm not convinced it will have an offline mode. It'd be a hell of a job for a port, as we're talking changing the entire game from client-server to purely client side. That's far from being a trivial task, that's pretty much re-writing the engine.

  3. #83
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    No. I am defending Blizzard's right to make the game the way they wanted to. I don't LIKE what they did, but I understand that it had the potential to revolutionize the genre. Was there a DRM aspect to it? Of course. But, theoretically, it had the potential to be VERY beneficial to the genre.

    More importantly, I am mocking and questioning everyone who, upon actually seeing that their whinging accomplished something, are bitching even harder at Blizzard.
    i understand that's what you think you're doing, but what's actually happening is an odd string of logical fallacies and rather poor analogies that neither serve your original point or show that you're capable (or perhaps interested) in any sort of rational discussion.

    all it does is add to your sizable portfolio of being contrary for the love of contrariness. a valid internet pursuit, and a tiring one.

  4. #84
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    Revolutionise the genre by removing mods, lan, local multiplayer, single player mode and charging microtransactions in a £40 game? Thats a revolution I think we can do without.
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  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But they haven't admitted that mistake. Or even fixed it yet. The real test will be in how the console offline version is balanced. Remember the AH was 'necessary' as the game was balanced around it, if the console version is rebalanced for offline that's one thing. If it's just the same game and in fact the balance is still fine with no AH, that's something else.

    That said, I'm not convinced it will have an offline mode. It'd be a hell of a job for a port, as we're talking changing the entire game from client-server to purely client side. That's far from being a trivial task, that's pretty much re-writing the engine.
    When it comes to companies like this, I always view it as "Actions speak louder than words". I don't care if Blizzard never says "Yeah... we screwed up"

    The fact that they are even (probably) considering a lessened social aspect on what is supposed to be THE social platform (PS4) suggests to me that they are willing to try to fix it. Maybe the console version is the "test" that will determine if they propagate that to the PC, maybe they'll propagate it with a patch around launch, or maybe there really IS some evil ulterior motive where they are willing to "be nice" to console gamers but not PC gamers (because it sure as hell isn't PSN policies).

    And yeah, how the offline aspect will make the auction house will definitely be interesting.

    As for the client-server to pure client: I don't know if that will be TOO difficult. Could someone who has actually played Diablo 3 clarify the following: Let's say you lose internet connection suddenly. How long until the game notices? Instantaneous? within a few seconds? And while it is trying to reconnect, can you still play, or has everything locked up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider Jerusalem View Post
    i understand that's what you think you're doing, but what's actually happening is an odd string of logical fallacies and rather poor analogies that neither serve your original point or show that you're capable (or perhaps interested) in any sort of rational discussion.

    all it does is add to your sizable portfolio of being contrary for the love of contrariness. a valid internet pursuit, and a tiring one.
    So now we are at the ad hominem phase of this discussion? AH well, was interesting while it lasted.
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  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    Revolutionise the genre by removing mods, lan, local multiplayer, single player mode and charging microtransactions in a £40 game? Thats a revolution I think we can do without.
    I've said it before, I'll say it again: Mods really aren't a big factor these days and plenty of games that have had modding support never really had mods (hell, even the games that are used as examples of "why we need mods" don't really have any mods comparable to the ones that came out in the early 200x). But fine, I'll agree that is a bad thing for the sake of argument

    Lack of LAN/local multiplayer: I question how much of a factor this is these days. I know that I still lan with a few friends, but we are using our laptops (and goofing off during lunch or something). Pretty much always our preference is to play multiplayer on our actual computers, which is much easier to do online (with some voice and/or video chat program to communicate).

    Lack of SP: Again, in the ARPG genre, people always end up bitching and being told "Don't play it in SP, find some friends and play with them"

    Blizzard were (in part) trying to force an online community to happen. Given the choice a LOT of gamers will never bother with multiplayer (if only because people are huge assholes). But, if you force them to do so to enjoy the game they want to play, they'll often times find they enjoy it (again, I cite Dark/Demon SOuls as a perfect example). Rightly or wrongly, BLizzard were concerned that the community might crap out and/or only be the SP-fanatics (with all MP still in WoW) and that is a huge death sentence for the game. So they tried to avoid that by forcing it to be an inherently multiplayer game. And that doesn't seem to have ended too well for them.

    Do I particularly like most of their tweaks? Not realy, but I am also not a huge ARPG player. But looking at games like Dark Souls and Guild Wars 2 that force a multiplayer and community aspect, I like the outcome.
    Dark Souls (moreso on the PS3, but even the PC is pretty nice outside of rampant hacking invaders) actually has one of the nicest and most supportive communities out there. Of course, I think not being able to talk to the asshat you are playing with might help :p
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  7. #87
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    Hi friends,

    Been lurking on the forums for years but figured I could actually contribute to this thread, so the period of lurking comes to end for now.

    @ Gundato: I've played D3 under varying lag/internet conditions. If your connection is going haywire but hasn't died, it can take anywhere between 5-30 seconds for the game to actually acknowledge that. This is plenty of time to die in HC mode. You notice lag, and you and the enemies will bounce all over the place, as will your health, resources, pets, and so on. It's kind of comical, though it's not very fun. However, if your connection flat-out dies, you'll leave the game in 10 seconds. You'll notice pretty quickly because everything will stop updating -- your character animations will fire, but not the effects that come with them. Again, sucky in HC mode.

    @ the overall "argument" taking place in this thread: I want to preface by saying I really, really, really like D3. I've played D3 for something like 30-60 minutes a day since release. The Hivemind can mock and shun me if they want -- I know fans of D3 are really underrepresented on RPS and I definitely get that, since D3 and Blizzard are definitely in "enemies of gaming" territory, and I acknowledge that. But, that aside, I still really like D3, and think it's super-fun. And, despite all this, even I'm super-salty about this (well, maybe just moderately salty). The way I see it, for better or worse, I endure two hyper-annoying aspects of D3 in order to get at the delicious, meaty goodness I enjoy out of it: always-online and the existence of the AH (I play entirely self-found, and can't help but feel that the AH has watered down the drop rates and some of the game's design elements). Now, I'm potentially going to be told that I can opt to endure fewer hyper-annoying aspects, but only if I repurchase the game (and possibly endure other annoying aspects, like using a gamepad to play). Again, I get everything behind it - the corporate strategy, the expansion into new markets - I get it. But that doesn't make me feel awesome. I was told - and made - to play a game I really like in a way I didn't because they told me there was no other choice. But now, there is another choice - except I may not get it by default. And even if I do, unless they offer a one-time transfer of my characters into this hypothetical PC offline mode, I will have to restart from scratch to take advantage of it. And that sucks, and makes me feel unappreciated as a consumer of their product. All in all, I'm glad that I have D3 to play, because I really like it, but I wish that I could feel excited about it hopping formats so that I could be excited that others get to play it when they otherwise wouldn't have, but instead the feeling is just bittersweet because of what I mentioned in the previous few sentences.

    (Full disclosure though it has little bearing on the argument at hand: I hate playing games multiplayer. The thing Mr. Walker wrote about multiplayer being when other people ruin your game for you definitely holds true in my case. Until about a week ago, I hadn't played one minute of D3 with other people, and I haven't since that one experience then, either, even though it was with a close friend. I definitely (selfishly) wish any design efforts put towards multiplayer for D3 were put into the other game systems.)

  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Hmm, in that case, it definitely sounds like most (if not all) of the logic occurs server-side.

    Although, a bootstrapped approach could be made whereby one of the cores is dedicated to emulating the server whereas the rest do the game. It might hurt performance, but it is an approach which doesn't need a drastic rewrite.
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  9. #89
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    Who really played Hardcore on Offline in D2 anyway? It was all about the Hardcore ladder.

    And we don't even know what their local co op will require internet or not. Its all speculation at this point.

  10. #90
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    BTW, guys, Gundato is your typical Blizz fanboy, and he acts like this in every thread where Blizzard's amazing supremacy is questioned.

    Because, didn't you know, Blizzard is actually a 12-year-old schoolgirl, not a multinational multibillion company, and it needs Gundato to white knight for her retarded decisions so she can keep operating.

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Basically "When they do it for me, I'll be okay with it"
    For my personal entertainment I couldn't care less about a D3 offline singleplayer mode by now. It was a direct response to your suggestion that its inclusion in the PS4 version was a sign that they learned from their mistakes, paraphrasing a line from Indiana Jones to end our small discussion on a somewhat humorous note, but I somehow forgot this was the internet. Adding such an option to the PS4 version and not adding it to the PC version afterwards however would be a huge slap into the face of the PC gaming crowd, since it wouldn't be a case of "Listen, with the server-side logic of the game there is no way an offline mode would work" but "Yeah, we figured out a way, but fuck you, core audience."
    Last edited by c-Row; 23-02-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    No. I am defending Blizzard's right to make the game the way they wanted to.
    You are right to do in public almost anything.

    But anything you do in public is also free to comment.

    Is perfectly fine if we call them *words* for this. It would be too much to ban his game from selling, but I don't think anybody here in this thread has that type of power. So we have not censoring the game, we are criticing actions.


    You are wrong, gundato.

  13. #93
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    @ Tei

    Didn't you know? Criticising is now indistinguishable from censoring.
    Don't like a game? Then you clearly hate freedom of speech. You scumbag.
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  14. #94
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    And you two are the Blizzards. Whoopty-do-dah. We don't even know if local co op is offline yet, but you will post about it when there is similar context. Any thread you start or comment is negative about Blizzard no matter what it is about. I am more positive than negative since I enjoy their games. Hell if they said they were bringing offline single player your comments would still be negative in some way.

  15. #95
    The reason it's galling is that it proves the reason for the online requirement was always just drm, and all of the other justifications blizzard gave were lies since all of a sudden they don't need it on a platform where piracy is far less of a concern. Of course most of us already realized that was the case, but if you hadn't I imagine it would be disappointing.

  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I'm a blizzard fanboy now? Funny since I have been mocking them for ripping off Warhammer FB AND 40k since Warcraft and Starcraft 1 and that my immediate response to Diablo 3 was "Yeah... gonna wait for Torchlight 2"

    Also: I have no idea what I am being strawmanned into right now. Could someone clarify? Or would it be easier if I just ignore all that so that you guys can keep pretending that anyone who isn't "Tentatively amused" at Blizzard allegedly going back on something "everyone" hates is inherently trying to kill your freedoms and rape your dog?
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  17. #97
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    So we should THANK developers for doing what they should have done in the first place? Isn't that like thanking your attacker because he's taken his foot off your throat?

    No there is no defending Blizzard for what they did. Especially now they're showing it had absolutely nothing to do with balance or improving their game. It was DRM. Pure and simple.
    And that is what you are defending.

    Blizzard showed their disdain for their fans. Now it's time their fans returned it.
    Last edited by Bhazor; 23-02-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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  18. #98
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    His argument boils down to "It's their game they can do whatever they want with it." Which is true.

    But that in no way means no one else has the right to criticize them for doing stupid things with it like he's also doing.
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  19. #99
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Exaclty. Shoop gets me. It was a design decision. Maybe it wasn't a good one, but it was one. Now, potentially reversing that design decision is another one. That may or may not be a good one, time will tell.

    You don't like that they had the "always on DRM"/"Forced community" aspect? Fine. I am not huge on it either, but I also think it could have been good.

    But bhazor. My point is that Blizzard at least appear to have LISTENED to their fans and are trying to do better for the PS3/PS4 release. What, should every port not have a single additional bell and/or whistle? Should it be worse? If so, you have lost the right to every single complaint you have EVER made about a console->PC port.

    Seriously, I am rapidly approaching the point where I hope this IS a misinterpretation. Because all this is doing is showing that game companies are better off NOT listening to their fans and saying "Fuck you guys" because even when they DO listen, the fans will still say they are evil and horrid and should die.
    Last edited by gundato; 23-02-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    You don't like that they had the "always on DRM"/"Forced community" aspect? Fine. I am not huge on it either, but I also think Because all this is doing is showing that game companies are better off NOT listening to their fans and saying "Fuck you guys" because even when they DO listen to the fans they are evil and horrid and should die.
    They shouldn't die because you don't agree with them, even if they are wrong. Besides, speaking of companies; expecting them to do anything other than try to earn more money is naive. I don't think Blizzard listened to the fans because they are nice people, they listened because nobody but bots play their game and they hoped that they would be able to earn big cash with the RMAH.

    Which didn't happen because the game lost too much gameplay value because of the AH. RMAH would probably have worked if the game was better as well, there was a lot of money to be made in DiabloII by selling stuff.

    And they probably could have made a lot more money if they made a good game and put pets and wings and stuff on sale in their store. Even I have all their WoW mounts and pets.
    Last edited by Caddybear; 23-02-2013 at 06:06 PM.

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