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  1. #3041
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Yeah, our unions seem to be self-serving organisations that only arrange strikes. They're about as useful as student unions and they act in the same manner.
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  2. #3042
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    Unions are intended to be self-serving. It's one of the reasons that having everything run by Unions can be a problem That said, most UK unions spend the vast majority of their time and effort in assisting their members in personal disputes with employers. This is however obviously not very visible behaviour. Only a small percentage of unions are in the position to cause widespread disruption, especially of the kind that Wally mentions. And their timing is down to political, rather than economic reasons. It's of little consequence to say, RMT (who are about the only union who can cause transport disruption) what the effect of their actions on broader productivity. What they want is to cause pressure on the politicians who control their conditions to resolve things quickly, because quickly almost certainly means gicving in to some of their demands. So they strike at a time when A) more people are likley to be bothered and b) those people are pushed for time. Yes, lots of people are on leave etc - but you also have a broader spread of the population using the tube etc. And of course, some union leaders are international socialists, or short-termers who'll happily see their employer bankrupt in 5 years if it means that they personally do better now. But then you also have employers who are out to make their staff as put upon as possible for seemingly no reason too, or politicians who are prepared to destroy an industry in the process of breaking the unions for said industry. There's an issue in the UK that we don't really have white-collar unions outside of a few established, principally public sector profressions. So white collar workers are less understanding of what unions are for and are worse represented. In my job space, there's no Union that would be appropriate. There's several professional bodies (that I am invesitgating joining). But if my employer ubruptly sacks me or makes my life unpleasant, I'm on my own at the tribunal. Back on the topic: Salarys in the UK are typically quoted PA - Per Annum - yearly. If you're seeing tens of thousands, and it's not for a very high-up finance job, then it's yearly. Median UK salary for full time employees is around 26,500. I'd expect this job to be paying less than that. Asking for too much will mean that you don't get a call back sometimes (other times, they will still offer under what you asked for. I've seen both happen). Don't accept less than you are happy with - and try and get a realistic idea of what living is going to cost you.

  3. #3043
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cephas's Avatar
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    Ultimately if it's unskilled you'll probably be looking at minimum wage. If it's skilled probably 18k - 22k I'd expect.

  4. #3044
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Ah yea I meant to say self-serving individuals at the top.
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  5. #3045
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyTrooper View Post
    Safety is often given as a concern which doesn't really help the argument when everyone knows how concerned they must be about the jobs. They may also be concerned about safety but they'd win the confidence of more people if they were up front about their concerns over jobs.
    True that you will always have a mixed bag of people involved in these things. And unsafe working conditions seems like a totally valid thing to be concerned about.

    But about winning public confidence... I'm talking more about public sector unions, since they seem to get the most coverage, but every time a public sector strike is called there are endless TV interviews with people effected, who generally say 'oh I'm really pissed off that I can't get into work'. Then they interview the politicians who are directly involved, who invariably say 'I don't know why they are striking, it's upsetting a lot of people, why can't they sort things out some other way?'.

    If you are really lucky you might see a union representative interviewed alongside one of the politicians involved. In which case the politician says something along the lines of 'we are perfectly prepared to negotiate' and the union rep says 'that's all we wanted in the first place you fucking idiot, why wouldn't you talk to us before the strike?'

    Last London transport strike happened after the Mayor of London refused to speak to them at all about various concerns relating to job losses (jobs that he had previously promised were protected btw). Last teacher strikes happened after the Minister for Education refused to discuss pension/pay/working condition changes by putting off meeting with unions for over 6 months (note: most of the people striking already had secure pensions due to paying into them anyway, the changes would effect new teachers and retention etc in the future). When there is a large scale strike why the fuck is there no media coverage of the actual issues/reasons behind it? Public support would be much stronger if there wasn't a media blackout on anything involving the actual reasons for the strikes.

    To be honest I don't know much about this stuff, but I do know that the way strikes are covered by the media in this country is utter bullshit which basically just serves to discredit unions.
    Last edited by Rizlar; 11-06-2014 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #3046
    Network Hub laldy's Avatar
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    Unions have 1 job. Represent their members. The lack of a union within a workplace allows the employer to divide and conquer, to play employees off against each other, and to pay workers doing the same job different wages. To fire your ass because you are black, Jewish, Catholic, pregnant. Without a union your health and safety at work is an unnecessary expense. Your life is not cost effective to protect.
    Employers are quick to use collective bargaining to their own advantage, but have the utter hypocrisy to demand that no-one do it to them.
    You only have to look at the way employers in countries like America and China fuck their employees to understand the benefits of union membership.
    Every single one of you working today has benefited from the hard work and sacrifices union members have made in the past.
    Get yer noses out of the right wing papers and wake up to the fact that unions are ordinary working people trying to feed, clothe, house, and warm their families.
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  7. #3047
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    The state has taken over those roles. I also support the idea of paying people different wages for the same job. A wage is as much related to the employee's self-worth and ability to negotiate as it is the value of their labour. The value of labour is as cheap as you can get it, same as the value of products and services.
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  8. #3048
    Network Hub laldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    The state has taken over those roles. I also support the idea of paying people different wages for the same job. A wage is as much related to the employee's self-worth and ability to negotiate as it is the value of their labour. The value of labour is as cheap as you can get it, same as the value of products and services.
    The state was forced to take over those roles through the influence of the unions. The Labour Party (R.I.P.) was founded by the unions to represent the working class. Exploitation of the working class and the degradation of the value of a workers output is part of the reason the economy of this country is going down the toilet. Almost any business will fail if the average worker cannot afford to buy its products.
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  9. #3049
    Network Hub Grible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    The value of labour is as cheap as you can get it, same as the value of products and services.
    Quote Originally Posted by laldy View Post
    The Labour Party (R.I.P.) was founded by the unions to represent the working class.
    Yep, Labour is worth whatever the worker will accept to do the job, Unions exist to allow the workers to stand upto the bosses and so get a better wage - and on the flip side stop the company finding cheaper workers to do the job.

    Sadly too many people have stopped joining Unions and the Unions have become all about "screwing the bosses" rather than getting a fair shake for the workers. That said, I'm in a union and it does me well, mandated breaks, rates, rules about time at work etc.

  10. #3050
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Any company will fail if it relies on its employees to buy its products. There are entire sectors of the economy designed around models where employees can't buy the products, you can prefix pretty much any industry with luxury and the employees won't be able to afford the product, and that's the entire point of the business model.
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  11. #3051
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Yeah, I work for a company who would immediately jack up their prices if they thought a pleb like me could afford their products.
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  12. #3052
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    Look, UK, youre fucked.

    The problem is that you won two wars and think youre something, when in fact, the countries that got crushed because of losing the war had the chance to start again, to begin with a fresh slate. Germany is doing quite good, austria is doing debatably better.

    Austria had the chance to go full socialism for about 50 years. Fucking hell, its been a trip. Of course some basic necessities were missing, but dear lord, the social security, the insurances, the medical care, its all top notch compared to the rest of europe.

    It also helps that Austria is able to court both the russians and the richer europe ;D

    Either way, I know its none of my business, but I hope scotland separates, so you get to build up from the ground.


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  13. #3053
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    By that logic we should ask them to fight for their freedom and have a nasty war which results in economic armaggeddon for both parties.

    Can we have the nukes back before we start? Knowing you lot, you'll pull a japan and not know when to surrender.

    We will hit you where it hurts, drop a nuke on the irn bru factory. If that doesnt yield the appropriate response, I cant promise the edinburgh festival will escape unscathed. Can you really live with the loss of so many standup comedians and modern artists?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanye West
    I think what Kanye West is going to mean is something similar to what Steve Jobs means. I am undoubtedly, you know, Steve of Internet, downtown, fashion, culture. Period.
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    I am God's vessel. But my greatest pain in life is that I will never be able to see myself perform live.



  14. #3054
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Well of course you can establish services people find satisfactory when you steal half the citizens' income. That increases to 60% for buying basic foodstuffs, 70% for buying luxury goods, and 82% for buying vehicles. The result of your love affair with socialism is the rising cost of not just your socialism, but living in general, is outpacing the rate of growth by a factor of three (though a part of that is being in the Eurozone, not much you can do about that now though). You love the (welfare) state because you rely on it.

    In real terms, the UK is not much different to Austria in that regard. There are a few key differences - we don't steal from people trying to buy a loaf of bread for their table (post income-tax ofc). The average person still loses 56% of their income. We also have socialised healthcare, national insurance, a safety net, etc. So to say that we're fucked is to admit that Austria is too. We're fortunate that our tax code is such that it still permits growth, and pretty soon we should be in a position to see wages rising in line with or greater than inflation, whereas Austria's going to get poorer and poorer until you either lower your tax and reduce the state, or devalue the currency (which you can't do).
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  15. #3055
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post

    Note: not aimed at anyone in particular.
    LIESSSSSS...

    Its aimed at me!!!!!! D=



    How DARE you Quanta!





    Wait... What are we talking about?



    Oh..... Ill just back away slowly...
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  16. #3056
    Network Hub laldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    Well of course you can establish services people find satisfactory when you steal half the citizens' income. That increases to 60% for buying basic foodstuffs, 70% for buying luxury goods, and 82% for buying vehicles. The result of your love affair with socialism is the rising cost of not just your socialism, but living in general, is outpacing the rate of growth by a factor of three (though a part of that is being in the Eurozone, not much you can do about that now though). You love the (welfare) state because you rely on it.

    In real terms, the UK is not much different to Austria in that regard. There are a few key differences - we don't steal from people trying to buy a loaf of bread for their table (post income-tax ofc). The average person still loses 56% of their income. We also have socialised healthcare, national insurance, a safety net, etc. So to say that we're fucked is to admit that Austria is too. We're fortunate that our tax code is such that it still permits growth, and pretty soon we should be in a position to see wages rising in line with or greater than inflation, whereas Austria's going to get poorer and poorer until you either lower your tax and reduce the state, or devalue the currency (which you can't do).
    If the income you take form the citizen is spent on the welfare of the citizen, it is not theft, it's using economies of scale to benefit the majority of the citizens. Damn, if we're going to lower the conversation to the level of taxes as theft, you'll not mind when I call you a fascist.
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  17. #3057
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Fascist? Lol. Fascist as in fascist or fascist as in "anything not progressivist?" It's the exact opposite of fascism to consider taxation theft. Fascism is state-managed industry. Unless I give my consent, ie make a voluntary transaction, for services, it doesn't matter what I get in return, the taking of my money is theft. It's not ok to take my stuff and say "but look, we're giving you all this stuff in return!" Hell, I could threaten to kidnap you and lock you up if you don't pay me money, and in return I'll make sure criminals don't bother you. Mobster, or police, what's the difference?
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  18. #3058
    I believe he was making a point about your emotive use of terms.

  19. #3059
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I'm passionate about politics, and in particular anarcho-capitalism. This is the first time I've been able to post at all related to it on RPS without immediately being shouted out, so yes I'm going to use emotive language. My view on taxation as theft is both absolute, and the most widely used phrase to describe the phenomenon.
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  20. #3060
    Network Hub laldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    Fascist? Lol. Fascist as in fascist or fascist as in "anything not progressivist?" It's the exact opposite of fascism to consider taxation theft. Fascism is state-managed industry. Unless I give my consent, ie make a voluntary transaction, for services, it doesn't matter what I get in return, the taking of my money is theft. It's not ok to take my stuff and say "but look, we're giving you all this stuff in return!" Hell, I could threaten to kidnap you and lock you up if you don't pay me money, and in return I'll make sure criminals don't bother you. Mobster, or police, what's the difference?
    Do you seriously think you would get the same benefits from spending your own money on those goods and services? You only have to look at the privatisation of goods and services previously managed by the the state to understand that the private sector is incapable of providing value for money. In every single case, the cost of those goods and services has risen astronomically under private management. Given that you are not prepared to contribute to the state, you'll stop using anything provided by the state?
    As for the fascist thing, you're the one that started with the ludicrous hyperbole, don't act all hurt when your opponents respond in kind. And by the way, considering how much our current administration bends over backwards to facilitate the profit motive of corporations at the expense of the populace, we're a damn sight closer to a fascist state that someone like you would be prepared to acknowledge.
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