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  1. #661
    Network Hub Orius's Avatar
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    Star Wars is dead to me by now. I used to be such a hardcore fan ever since childhood, but then came the prequels. And while there was a short period of decent games, that too withered and eventually turned to complete shit (I'm looking at you, TOR). I've become too jaded to get excited for anything Star Wars related again, which is just as well because after this Disney thing I'm really glad I have no sentiments left for them to harm.

  2. #662
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Well for all intents and purposes Disney are also Marvel and I know avengers divided some people (namely people not completely dead inside and people on the internet who hate everything anyway) but you can't deny that when it comes to highly ambitious nerdgasm projects they're not without experience. Also JJ Abrams seems to know what he's doing, Star Trek was perfectly fine and I'd watch it a thousand times before watching Episode 3 ever again.

  3. #663
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    also note, even though disney are doing questionable things by putting clone wars on hiatus, clone wars itself was the best thing evrr to come out of a post prequel sw world. they had some great stories and most of all, they made an effort in tieing in the expanded universe.

    also, they finally brought in the republic commandos.

    either way, it was going places again. lets see if disney fucks it up or ends up saving it.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  4. #664
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Star Wars for me is limited to the first 3 films.

    They work great by themselves, but their world wasn't meant to be expanded like it has. It is a known fact that George Lucas wrote Star Wars as a classical myth story (he studied classic stories narrating devices and organization) set up in a SF universe. That's why the world is Manichean and the whole Sith/Jedi thing is very much pure black vs pure white.

    That works well in the context of the first 3 films, which narrates one story. That doesn't once you start building a whole universe and several stories/characters inside that frame. I know some people will tell me that novel X or Y has ambiguous, "grey", stories/characters. But really, the basic narrative frame is always the same.

    I remember when the Old Republic MMO came out, i watched the trailer, and i was like "wow i forgot how awesome light saber fights are" but at the same time I was thinking "sith killing all jedi in the jedi temple, there by bringing the Republic to its knees...I heard that before".

    If you compare Star Wars stories to the A Song of Ice and Fire cycle (aka Game Of Thrones) where the author built his world with morally ambiguous characters, where there is no true perfect hero or evil-incarnate overlords. Imho, that leads to much more interesting stories and characters which also leads to a richer world.
    Last edited by Ksempac; 04-05-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #665
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    first of all, star wars is a tribute to a japanese film which I keep forgetting about.

    secondly, the first trilogy had been expanded already long before lucas made episodes 1-3. just that everyone has ignored it "officially". the best piece of star wars writing is still in kotor 2, where the jedi were just as bad or good as the sith. and strangely, clone wars also captures this feeling in the later seasons. that the council is a bunch of powerhungry idiots clinging to tradition in order to maintain a status quo.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Star Wars is dead to me by now. I used to be such a hardcore fan ever since childhood, but then came the prequels.
    The same here. Massive part of my childhood, absolutely no interest since watching Episode 1 in the Leicester Square Odeon on the day it was released. I try to appreciate the original stuff as completely separate from anything post-sequel tho, and would recommend (at least the first) Robot Chicken Star Wars, since they seemed to be made by people exactly like us.

    Favorite Star Wars stories outside of the trilogy are probably the Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina/Tales of Bounty Hunters collections of short stories. They tie in to the films by taking inspiration from background characters, then tell stories about them that are completely separate. No Jedis or Sith, just people who happen to be gangsters, persecuted aliens and off duty Stormtroopers. Amazing.

  7. #667
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Star Wars 1313 showed some real promise of more of that level-headed grounded storytelling in the Star Wars universe, but I guess that's dead now, damn their eyes!

  8. #668
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    If you compare Star Wars stories to the A Song of Ice and Fire cycle (aka Game Of Thrones) where the author built his world with morally ambiguous characters, where there is no true perfect hero or evil-incarnate overlords. Imho, that leads to much more interesting stories and characters which also leads to a richer world.
    I see where you're coming from, but it seems strange to compare it to Game of Thrones unfavourably. They're entirely different beasts and the products of their respective eras. Also, two people have mentioned that Star Wars is definitively two things (the hero myth and a japanese thing) - but Lucas was like Tarantino back in the day and had multitudes of influences going on. The hero myth served as the structure and he was definitely influenced by Japanese culture and movies (A Jedi is basically a samurai reboot), but also by Western influences like cowboy movies, World War 1/2 aerial combat and ground battles. I'm sure I read somewhere that he actually wanted to make Buck Rogers but couldn't get the license, don't quote me on that though.

    My rambly point being, you can't narrow this thing down to one or two influences, and you definitely can't put a definitive stamp on what Star Wars is to all people. Theres enough going on for people to read into it in their own way and see what they want to see, to the point where Lucas came to make another three and it became apparent that he didn't actually understand what his own baby was. 30 years ago his creative team were still saying no at times to him and presenting their own ideas, Star Wars was a collaborative effort which fell apart when Lucas got full control and was surrounded by yes men and women.

    "I want to have casual racism like I did at times with the Jawas but this time with cgi"
    "Sure thing sir!"
    "Oh, also can we have all the bits that aren't entirely cgi just be static shots of people standing and having a chat in a very small room, the less I have to leave my chair the better"
    "Sounds exciting!"
    "Padme should be killed via broken heart"
    "Perfect, and so plausible! Shall we make one toy of Padme without broken heart and another with?"

    There's other stories to be told in that universe, just as there are lots of westerns and films about samurai's (or in the case of magificent seven/seven samurai, both at the same time) that don't have to make the same point each time. Disney just have to have the courage to actually move on and tell another story instead of relying on our fondness for Han Solo and whatnot.

    I just want them to not flash those fucking lightsabres around like a ban is about to be put in place. Have some tension and build up! I don't even want to see a lightsabre light up until at least an hour in.

  9. #669
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    Star Wars 1313 showed some real promise of more of that level-headed grounded storytelling in the Star Wars universe, but I guess that's dead now, damn their eyes!
    Maybe the story telling was good but that game did not look fun to play. It's one thing to shift the focus to a rogue instead of jedi, but sticky cover-based combat can fuck right off.

  10. #670
    Network Hub Orius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    first of all, star wars is a tribute to a japanese film which I keep forgetting about.

    secondly, the first trilogy had been expanded already long before lucas made episodes 1-3. just that everyone has ignored it "officially". the best piece of star wars writing is still in kotor 2, where the jedi were just as bad or good as the sith. and strangely, clone wars also captures this feeling in the later seasons. that the council is a bunch of powerhungry idiots clinging to tradition in order to maintain a status quo.
    Absofuckinglutely. Though really, that's because Avellone actively hated the simplicity in Star Wars and decided to actively work to deconstruct the universe.

  11. #671
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar skills View Post
    Maybe the story telling was good but that game did not look fun to play. It's one thing to shift the focus to a rogue instead of jedi, but sticky cover-based combat can fuck right off.
    Actually, there we disagree. I rather like several of the sticky cover-based shooters I've played recently. Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol, for instance.

  12. #672
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    I'll give you Mass Effect, it's one of the least horrible of the bunch. You shouldn't listen to me anyway, I must be the only person in the world to think the combat in every bioshock game has been dogshit.

  13. #673
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    well you guys are in luck, because I have talked to a good friend of Lucas, Hal Barwood. he told me a number of things about star wars, confirming that it was a tribute to kurosawa, I think (bad with japanese classic film giants names sadly) nad more importantly, that it was a low budget film, which spawned the careers of many of the greats today. lucas never wrote it properly though, he just decided on the writing of others.

    however inexperienced he might have been, he did decide on vader being lukes father. originally, it was going to be kenobi having killed anakin, as a big reveal. but thats all very well documented on imdb anyway.

    what I was interested in thoguh was the low budget aspect, which is still very much a factor for todays films. look at black swan, or reservoir dogs. lock stock. you catch my drift. the only thing that really defined star wars though, is that it can be infinitely interesting and new.

    just like all good fairy tales are.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  14. #674
    Network Hub Orius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    Actually, there we disagree. I rather like several of the sticky cover-based shooters I've played recently. Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol, for instance.
    Alpha Protocol, while vastly underrated and a truly amazing game, was good largely because of story elements more so than gameplay. Pistol skill was good fun, but hugely overpowered and made everything else redundant.

  15. #675
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Here's darth vaders helmet as it was about 400 years ago;



    Kurosawas seven jedi er samurai



    This is going from the WW2 influence, heres a picture from inside a german plane. Look familiar?



    Here's the intro to Flash Gordon from the 40's, a film which also heavily used those side to side wipes Lucas was so fond of;



    Lucas and Spielberg loved shit from the 40's in the same way Tarantino and all those grindhouse guys love the 70's and exploitation flicks. It's reassuring to know that everything being derivative isn't a new or even a bad thing. That stuff from the 40's was itself emulating adventure novels and folk tales. Everything is going to be OK!

  16. #676
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    well you guys are in luck, because I have talked to a good friend of Lucas, Hal Barwood. he told me a number of things about star wars, confirming that it was a tribute to kurosawa, I think (bad with japanese classic film giants names sadly)
    Good scoop! I think the specific film is Hidden Fortress, but you see Kurosawas grubby fingerprints everywhere. How do you know Hal Barwood? Surprised he hasn't shown up on Kickstarter for a new Indiana Jones game.

  17. #677
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    sad to say hes retired by now. He spoke at the stagconf, a one off conference about story telling in games which I was asked to record. (its all on youtube for free to watch, including barwoods talk) and said hed be out of the game development business by now.

    However, Ive sortof kept in touch. When amanita designs games were on a humble bundle, I bought him a bundle and sent it to him. he answered back to me, thanking and all that, so I hope he had fun with that and noticed that adventure games are alive and kicking :D

    note that hes the same age as spielberg and lucas. he reminisced about playing dnd with them.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 05-05-2013 at 05:39 AM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  18. #678
    Lesser Hivemind Node madmoxxi's Avatar
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    "Why are you so angry at her for being a sexy giraffe"
    HEHE! I died a bit...

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  19. #679
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    So I'm in the process of moving home, which is one of the reasons why I've not been about much the last couple of weeks. Mostly there but still some stuff to do. However, the most important is now setup, my new rig.

    /showoff


  20. #680
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    the high screen is a bit weird.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

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