Torment: Tides of Numenera

[karthink]

@Internet: Funding is falling off so fast I doubt they'll hit 4m even with the spurt at the end. A big sum to be sure, but basically, they need that kick in the middle of their campaign. I wonder what it can be, though. Avellone has clearly stated he's too busy, and they don't have any assets. They don't even have the engine sorted out yet--they were set on 3D isometric like Wasteland 2, but there's a large cry from backers to do 2D painted backgrounds instead (presumably because it ages more gracefully) and they're now reconsidering.

This game is going to stand or collapse on the strength of its writing alone, but I don't want them to use the extra funds to hire more writers, or even to tack on additional story mechanics like the "labyrinth of the mind" they're adding. A singular vision matters. Too many cooks are what ruined Mass Effect, for instance.

They're focusing enough on reactivity. I'd actually like them to spend the money on sprucing up the visuals. The Numenera concept art is all kinds of weird, and the higher the fidelity with which they craft their world, the more the game is going to stand out.

Of course, Fargo looks like he's really happy with what they already have.

[Internet]

@Internet: Funding is falling off so fast I doubt they'll hit 4m even with the spurt at the end. A big sum to be sure, but basically, they need that kick in the middle of their campaign. I wonder what it can be, though. Avellone has clearly stated he's too busy, and they don't have any assets. They don't even have the engine sorted out yet--they were set on 3D isometric like Wasteland 2, but there's a large cry from backers to do 2D painted backgrounds instead (presumably because it ages more gracefully) and they're now reconsidering.

This game is going to stand or collapse on the strength of its writing alone, but I don't want them to use the extra funds to hire more writers, or even to tack on additional story mechanics like the "labyrinth of the mind" they're adding. A singular vision matters. Too many cooks are what ruined Mass Effect, for instance.

They're focusing enough on reactivity. I'd actually like them to spend the money on sprucing up the visuals. The Numenera concept art is all kinds of weird, and the higher the fidelity with which they craft their world, the more the game is going to stand out.

Of course, Fargo looks like he's really happy with what they already have.

I agree with basically everything you say, especially since today the just fell below Project Eternity for the first time.

The real deciding factor will be stretch-goals. PE lent itself really well to stretch-goals with a natural appeal in a way that Planescape doesn't. Adding a race in a generic fantasy is a lot easier than adding a race in a thoughtful meeting place where each race or group is a philosophy, same with classes. BG had 8 million subclasses, Planescape had three.

I think the money would most successfully be spent adding more areas, and that's one of the hardest things to do.

There's one stretch goal that could significantly change the balance of things though, Avellone involvement. I doubt they'll be able to get him since PE is Obsidian's baby, but that could have a huge impact.

[Spider Jerusalem]

the $1.5m stretch goal is someone from my master's program.

hilarious.

[b0rsuk]

Once Eternity, Torment and Wasteland 2 ship we will know for sure how much Avellone's involvement is really worth. We will have 3 games with varying degrees of Avelloneness, very similar in technology used and form, differing mostly in setting and story.

[Internet]

Torment just fell below PE in daily funding for two days in a row. I doubt it will stay there forever, and some of that is probably a weekend dip, but given Torment's explosive start there's probably more to that. I'm guessing stretch-goals. Here's a comparison of what each offers, and for how much.

PE gets a new companion every $366k, TToN every $500k and it starts $500k later.
PE tells players they can pay for a sourcebook, TToN offers players a novella every $375k.
Gender is included in PE, $200k in TToN.
PE gets a new Region for $1.1m (presumably comprised of multiple areas of varied depth), TToN gets a new area every $500k
PE gets a new faction at $1.1m, TToN gets two new enemy factions at $1.5m.
If the new area represents another 33% playable content (hard to quantify because player creation is also content in an RPG), then $33k nets the backer a 1% increase in content in PE. TToN offers 1% increase in content for $7.5k ($6k if you count matching funds).

So, if you're interested in both, TToN arguably offers the better deal even though PE had a much larger initial backer pool. Novellas, PST retrospectives, and promises of about 5x the content for same amount of money. The difference could be in the structure of the rewards.

A small grain (relatively) of $100k offers the impression that the kickstarter is constantly making progress, and racks up a string of small success, constantly generating buzz. Larger successes may generate the same amount of buzz as small ones (since they're both relatively minor events to people who aren't rabid fans).

Secondly, PE did a better job of defining their goals and maintaining consistency than TToN. TToN offers more concept art, and more description of the world, but their descriptions vary in consistency. The first companion you get is "The Toy" a sentient jelly. The next two are secret. PE just said "new companion," and maintained uniformity across stretch goals. Similarly, Monte Cook describe one area with far greater detail than the other, and used the word weird and strange repeatedly.

So it's weird that a game with less info and less generous rewards did better at convincing more people (backer numbers support this too) off the fence. It may be that Torment launched with a better pitch, which gave them more immediate demand. It may be the earlier closing of the $20 tier. It may be the larger gap between rewards for TToN. It may just be the weekend. But it is interesting.

[karthink]

@Internet:
At the end of seven days:

Project Eternity had: 42922 backers, $1,742,525 in funding
Tides of Numenera has: 45925 backers, $2,505,450 in funding

They're about even in amount of interest dredged up, but Torment's pulled in significantly more per backer. PE got about $517K in 5 days following stretch goals announcements, Torment got well over $1 million. Assuming Torment gets about 65K backers, 10k less than PE, they will cross $4m eventually.

Torment's funding has been distributed differently in time, but despite some general griping about hazy stretch goals, I'd say it's doing better than PE.

What's uncertain is the future. $3 million is far away right now, and InXile is more interested in developing the tides/alignment system than adding new areas. It's promising stuff--They're planning up to 17 different alignments (PS:T had 9) with a larger effect on the game/writing than in PS:T. Doesn't work as well as a stretch goal as a new city or class specialization, which is a shame. Role-playing quality over quantity and all that.

The "labyrinth of the mind", and a yet to be announced "meres" system is apparently akin to PE's endless dungeon, but with endless stories instead of levels. That should get some people interested.

[Fumarole]

I don't think I'll be backing this as $25 is too much for me to pledge on an unknown quantity, and something about the limited availability at $20 bothers me. I do like that they offered both this and Wasteland 2 for $45, but I already pledged to the latter so that does nothing to sway me. The fact that they've already hit their target further dissuades me. Maybe stretch goals will change my mind, who knows?

[Sunjumper]

They have just put in a new intermediate stretch goal between the 2.5 and 3.0 million ones at 2.75 that will see Brian Mitsoda (of Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines fame) joining the writing team.

Meres apparently let you posses other cast-offs there by opening up new bits of the game world.

And the idea behind the Castoff’s Labyrinth is that it is the place you go when you die. So instead of the Game Over screen you go into the realm of your own twisted mind and can go and explore that place. You can find strange secrets down there as well as reflections of your companions that will reveal things about them that you would otherwise never find out about.

[Internet]

They have just put in a new intermediate stretch goal between the 2.5 and 3.0 million ones at 2.75 that will see Brian Mitsoda (of Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines fame) joining the writing team.

Meres apparently let you posses other cast-offs there by opening up new bits of the game world.

And the idea behind the Castoff’s Labyrinth is that it is the place you go when you die. So instead of the Game Over screen you go into the realm of your own twisted mind and can go and explore that place. You can find strange secrets down there as well as reflections of your companions that will reveal things about them that you would otherwise never find out about.

I didn't quite get what meres were though. Castoff's dungeon is pretty cool though. I hope Mitsoda is able to balance this and Dead State, which looks pretty interesting.

[Anthile]

At this point I wonder what's going to be after Wasteland 2, Tides of Nutella and even Project Eternity. Sure, it's going to be years and a lot of things can change. I would like to see a new Arcanum game, even if it is by another name. We know there was a sequel planned with the name Journey to the Center of Arcanum which would have been more like Bloodlines but that obviously never happened. I know, it's unlikely but the possibility is there, it can happen. Just a year or two ago the mere idea of a Torment sequel would have been preposterous but it's a reality now and I guess that's what kickstarter is all about. At least now I can say I called it.

[Internet]

At this point I wonder what's going to be after Wasteland 2, Tides of Nutella and even Project Eternity. Sure, it's going to be years and a lot of things can change. I would like to see a new Arcanum game, even if it is by another name. We know there was a sequel planned with the name Journey to the Center of Arcanum which would have been more like Bloodlines but that obviously never happened. I know, it's unlikely but the possibility is there, it can happen. Just a year or two ago the mere idea of a Torment sequel would have been preposterous but it's a reality now and I guess that's what kickstarter is all about. At least now I can say I called it.

Project Eternity will be a franchise in its own right. I think they want to do a lot of sequels in its world. I also wouldn't be surprised for Wasteland 3. So, meet the new boss...

I think that if they are successful both companies will probably expand. Obsidian could rehire a bunch of people let go, with Tim Cain as the lead (for as long as he stays). I'm personally most excited to see what Doublefine does next.

[Sunjumper]

I didn't quite get what meres were though. Castoff's dungeon is pretty cool though. I hope Mitsoda is able to balance this and Dead State, which looks pretty interesting.

I also am not quite sure what meres are supposed to be. They seem to be other discarded bodies of the entity that once inhabited the body of the protagonist. How exactly they enhance the story I do not quite get but I have not yet seen the newest videos.

Because of the work schedules of Dead State (which is slowly trundling towards the finishing line) and that of Torment (which is still in pre-production) Brian Mitsoda would join the Torment team after he is done writing for dead State.

[karthink]

Those death mechanics could be gold if implemented right. A chore if implemented wrong. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, though. Basically, they're adding a whole new dimension of play to the period between the nameless one dying and resurrecting at the head of the map.

The meres are objects, by the way. Just like anything in Planescape: Torment could be a portal key, any object ("numenera") can be a mere in disguise. Functionally, they're a bit like the animus from Assassin's Creed, only you get to affect what happens in there.

This game sounds like it's full of clever ideas, waiting for some good writing to see them through.

[Internet]

This game sounds like it's full of clever ideas, waiting for some good writing to see them through.

Pretty much this. I think good writing could also help the setting establish internal consistency, which needs a bit more description than just weird and strange.

[b0rsuk]

I apologize for not being negative in this post, but Torment 2 developers are being interviewed at Reddit. You can post your questions. There are already over 253 comments 1 hour in.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...in_mccomb_and/

[Lukasz]

backed with 45 bucks so i can get wasteland 2... too... i didn't back it when it was on KS.

[karthink]

I apologize for not being negative in this post, but Torment 2 developers are being interviewed at Reddit. You can post your questions. There are already over 253 comments 1 hour in.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...in_mccomb_and/

Yeah, I kinda assaulted Colin Mccomb with my wall of questions. (It's the top comment.)

Their answers hit all the right beats, they're a soothing mix of measured replies and anodynes. Basically, I think they have solid vision and focus. But it's very ambitious stuff-I'm hopeful, but I don't know if they can pull it off. And not for want of money either; reading their answers reveals that what they're planning to write is extremely tricky stuff, a high wire act.

[Internet]

The reddit is pretty interesting. Still a bit vague, but I think that's how they're going to play it. Pledges have dropped pretty hard through. I hope they can make some new waves. Quick guess with absolutely no numbers behind it $3.5m if they don't make some stretch goal changes.

[deano2099]

Basically, I think they have solid vision and focus. But it's very ambitious stuff-I'm hopeful, but I don't know if they can pull it off.

Well that's Obsidian - they always aim really high and fall somewhat short. I'm sure this game will have it's flaws too, but regardless it'll be worth $20 for sure.

[karthink]

There's a new update: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...numenera/posts

They're getting Patrick Rothfuss to write at $3.25m, along with many smaller stretch goals along the way.