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  1. #3041
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    man, that's some seriously lousy r-squared.
    r = (0^0)*-1

  2. #3042
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Your supposed to connect them to make a pretty picture![/COLOR]
    I don't know about you, but I see clear scientific conclusions! Clearly, female-heavy majors are for people with poor organizational skills. They can't even band together to allow for scientifically verifiable stereotyping.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  3. #3043
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    Information make all of us dumb

    May amnesia pardon all of us.

    Womens are, in many ways, interesting. I celebrate every success towards womens equality, but mostly for greedy reasons.

    I think is better for all of us.

    What we should fight, is what divide us. I think communism got some things right, and one of them was internationalism. The idea that more than nations, people and common interest in people, is something that is worth fighting for. So the things that pit some of us against others, that divide us, are things that weakened us.
    They may exist some walls between womens and men in technology, and if we are clever, smart, reasonable, cool, we will make these walls fall.

    I am soo sorry when in this thread or in other threads it looks like I am fight that. It could be my own stupidity, or it could be my own search for The Truth, .... something that I hope I share with others here. In any case, sorry, very very Sorry.
    Last edited by Tei; 27-06-2014 at 06:29 PM.

  4. #3044
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    You're doing alright, Tei. Keep searching, and above all, keep listening. If you have a ways to go, well, we all do. No-one said it was going to be easy.

  5. #3045
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    At the risk of a shit storm I thought I'd link to the latest video (via Eurogamer for a change):
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...vs-women-video

    In a purely informative the new one is out, if you had missed it for whatever reason and were interested in seeing it.

  6. #3046
    Network Hub Makariel's Avatar
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    My personal interest in her videos declined, since she continues making the same point over and over. The same way I stopped reading the Ben Goldacre book Bad Pharma, where the same point was repeated over and over in slightly varied tone. Half the book would have been twice as good. In the same rate Anitas videos would IMO benefit from cutting them by about 30 to 50%.
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  7. #3047
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    In the same rate Anitas videos would IMO benefit from cutting them by about 30 to 50%.
    Yup. I rarely watch YT videos that are longer than 5 minutes. Anita's videos are meant to make some change for better in video game industry (both devs and players), right? There's no way that people who could benefit from them will watch ~30 minutes long videos.

    It would be much better for her to make ten 2-3 minutes long videos and release them twice each week for example. Short, sharp material that goes straight to the point, like Extra Credits videos.

  8. #3048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makariel View Post
    In the same rate Anitas videos would IMO benefit from cutting them by about 30 to 50%.
    I wouldn't mind the episodes being 5 minutes shorter myself, but the sheer number of examples Sarkeesian uses goes to demonstrating that these are pervasive patterns within the industry rather than -- as people would otherwise object -- just a few bad apples being taken out of context and used to demonise the industry as a whole. Of course, people say that anyway. =/

    On-topic: I recall being told, in an introductory Film Studies class, that everything in a film was open to examination, that film stock was too rare/expensive and the production processes too involved for stuff to be there just by accident. How much more true this is of video games, where every. single. thing. has been hand-crafted basically from scratch to be presented to the player. Think of how many man-hours have gone into creating all those decorative violence-against-women moments that Sarkeesian wades through in her videos. In that context, the idea that we shouldn't interrogate the pervasive use of such depictions is really bizarre.
    Last edited by Lethe; 27-08-2014 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #3049
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I think the video length is fine as the content sort of demands all the examples, to illustrate the point.

    They could perhaps be done as 4x15 minute episodes instead of 2x30 minute episodes. though I think i'm mostly suggesting that as the debate around the video sort of goes hot/cold for months on end rather than sticking to a nice even clip.

  10. #3050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    On-topic: I recall being told, in an introductory Film Studies class, that everything in a film was open to examination, that film stock was too rare/expensive and the production processes too involved for stuff to be there just by accident. How much more true this is of video games, where every. single. thing. has been hand-crafted basically from scratch to be presented to the player.
    I can't comment on the video but on how videogames and software work.
    There has to be a lot of reuse in videogames. Things like engines could be 10 or 15 years old, with many changes. Some stuff like models or animations could come from libraries. The AI of some mob could be coming from a similar game of the same company.
    Developers are going to cut corners where It don't matter at every opportunity. If they have a set of icons, and the set of icons seems to fit the existing theme of the game, they may reuse it, without previously checking that the "women.png" icon is a lady with a baby in his hands.

    Ubisoft is famous for this, a game like Watch Dogs has ben made by many people from different parts of the world, that maybe have never seem each another. This cut corners with the production time: while some people is working on the cutscenes, other people may be working on the mission scripts, and yet other people working on the driving, and yet more people trying to fix a subsystem to allow remote controlling copters (or other feature that is finally removed from the game because it fails to work correctly).

    What I am tryiing to say, is that maybe the devs themselves control less of the message that your post make it look, they may take decisions with side effects that felt random.

    Sometimes artist clone. Even original artist, sometimes they take something from the real world, and add to it. They take from the real world, with the baggage the real world already sustain.
    Some artist doing a Mass Effect game NPC vendor may be creating a lady npc vendor that is exactly like Susan, from the pub on the same street the developing studio. Their representation of Susan is not misogynist or follow anyone agenda, they are lifting her from the real world, the real thing. Many other things could be lifted from the real world, as a cheap way to fabric the game universe quickly.
    Last edited by Tei; 27-08-2014 at 05:11 PM.

  11. #3051
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Regarding length, there comes a point where you do just need time to explore your point and go into detail that having a reduced run-time would actually end up being detrimental to your want. I'm not sure if 15 minutes would be quite enough and by the 20 minute mark well...how much more is it to 30, really? I think part of it comes down to investment of time too. If you're not sure you want to spend time on something, deciding to spend 30 minutes on it might seem like a waste. Perhaps once the project is done, it wouldn't harm for a few minutes of summation to cover all the topics broadly so that people could get a rough idea before proceeding deeper. There's also the argument to be made for the lack of attention span, but that one really does just vary from person to person.

    As for reusing assets, it's certainly fair that as game worlds become more expansive and complex some things will be reused. That's fine, I don't think you could argue against that other than for wanting everything to be unique, which itself is a very questionable stance to adopt. The problem comes from the application of that re-use. Something that works in one context may not work in another and can be jarring or stupid. At best this simply breaks suspension of disbelief, but at worst you can end up perpetuating something questionable. I don't even think it'd be fair to appeal to ignorance at that point because even if you have the assets that you intend on re-using, you still need to make a conscious decision as to how they're to be applied.

    Whilst I'm here, I'll say that, once more, this video is good and informative. It also seems to be gaining quite a bit of attention from more Important People including those 'outside' of gaming. I do wonder why now especially, but that's no bad thing. Attention should hopefully bring thinking, which is exactly what's needed.
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  12. #3052
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    I liked it, though she skirts a little too close to telling people what they ought to be doing in this one for my liking. I don't know. I am aware she has that disclaimer - I have no problem with the idea of liking stuff while pointing out its problems - but I felt there was a little too much emphasis on the idea every writer has some kind of duty to solve the world's problems, and anything that might be adding to them ought to be scrubbed, no matter how well-intentioned it was in the first place. But sure, no argument with her basic points - it's lazy shorthand to portray a world as "evil" with violence, murder and cartoon amorality around every street corner, and when people do that, all too often they use women getting raped, threatened with rape, or available for sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    On-topic: I recall being told, in an introductory Film Studies class, that everything in a film was open to examination, that film stock was too rare/expensive and the production processes too involved for stuff to be there just by accident. How much more true this is of video games, where every. single. thing. has been hand-crafted basically from scratch to be presented to the player. Think of how many man-hours have gone into creating all those decorative violence-against-women moments that Sarkeesian wades through in her videos. In that context, the idea that we shouldn't interrogate the pervasive use of such depictions is really bizarre.
    A friend of mine had a similar experience - "What's the first thing you see when you watch (I think it was Being John Malkovich)?" (Class offers up various answers.) "Nope. All wrong." "What is it, then?" "The credits." I take Tei's point (wasn't sure I'd ever be writing those words!) but even when a developer reuses something, there's a thought process that goes into what to reuse - or alternatively the problem is just as much about what developers reach for in these situations without consciously thinking about it.

  13. #3053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    So the first episode is out:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

    As it was so terribly controversial in the video gaming community I feel it warrants discussion. Generally though I agree with the entire thing, so I guess the talking point is what are your thoughts?

    I don't see the point the video is trying to make.

    Scheherazade's "One Thousand and One Nights" or the greek mythos, and maybe older things, all parroting this story of a damnsell in mistress.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Charming
    Prince Charming is a stock character who appears in a number of fairy tales. He is the prince who comes to the rescue of the damsel in distress, and stereotypically, must engage in a quest to liberate her from an evil spell. This classification suits most heroes of a number of traditional folk tales, including Snow White, Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, even if in the original story they were given another name, or no name at all.
    Prince Charming is a womens fantasy. Some young rich/cool guy that rescue them from poverty/boredoom.

    The only error you can fault on videogames is not having this message:




    Womens anywhere, go save some male, we exist, find us :D
    Don't be lazy. Don't expect us to do everything.


    Elizabeth Ford Daniela Drake wrote:
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/18/lov...-security.html
    Since we think of ourselves as smart girls, here’s the bottom line: Find your fortune while you’re young and marry a man with money.

    This is what we call the Gold-Digging Imperative–”The GDI.”

    We don’t think “gold-digging” should be frowned upon. Why, we wonder, does society applaud a girl who falls for a guy’s big blue eyes yet denounces one who chooses a man with a big green bankroll?

    What’s the difference? Earning power is, after all, a reflection of his values and character. Big blue eyes? Not so much.

    Whats wrong with you, Elizabeth?
    Last edited by Tei; 27-08-2014 at 06:49 PM.

  14. #3054
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Whilst it's been some time since I watched that first video, the point is that Damsels in Distress are predominantly used as a go-to (lazy) narrative kick-starter for a game to give you motivation to play through the game to obtain a conclusion. Other than the fact that it's mostly applied in a boring manner and offering marginal creativity, it places females in the position of being objects as opposed to people that males fight over as if they're some sort of possession and I say males because I for one can't think of an example where the captor is female. The damsel will also have very similar characteristics that show them as being helpless or weak and fragile. No one example by itself shows this, but when it's used so pervasively, the idea does build up on the mind and will inevitably carry over to how you perceive things if you're not really aware that it's happening. In later DiD videos, Anita goes on to demonstrate just how pervasive this is in highlighting that even inanimate objects are being given gender labels so that the same narrative mechanic can be employed.

    That this is a hold-over from older narratives isn't really a good reason, more an excuse. If your game is mechanic heavy...why not just push the mechanics rather than forcing a pointless narrative in there? Take Super Hexagon, for instance. The game is all mechanic with no filler. Even the sounds and graphics that are great to listen to and see actually contribute in meaningful ways. It's quite easy to picture that game having the narrative of DiD by having the pointer be the main (male) character and the 60 second mark the damsel to rescue. It sounds stupid and it would be, but I can entirely visualise it. If you are going to include a narrative, it should be considered and well thought out, rather than a sloppy repeat of what has come before, but dressed up slightly differently.
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  15. #3055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    I don't see the point the video is trying to make.

    Scheherazade's "One Thousand and One Nights" or the greek mythos, and maybe older things, all parroting this story of a damnsell in mistress.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Charming


    Prince Charming is a womens fantasy. Some young rich/cool guy that rescue them from poverty/boredoom.

    The only error you can fault on videogames is not having this message:




    Womens anywhere, go save some male, we exist, find us :D
    Don't be lazy. Don't expect us to do everything.
    The "Frozen" pinnacle of feminism can't arrive in video games soon enough I suppose. Honestly, Disney has been doing it for a while, even since Pocahontas (perhaps even Cinderella).

    The solution is obviously more good looking men who are dumber than their anthropomorphized pets, but "charming" in that boyish humor way that will make them nice arm candy when heroine succeeds on her own.

    Leave it to these this types of discussion to make Bioware characters look like brilliant socially conscious constructions. (Not sure I am still being sarcastic while making that statement).
    Last edited by Misnomer; 27-08-2014 at 07:44 PM.

  16. #3056
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Whilst it's been some time since I watched that first video, the point is that Damsels in Distress are predominantly used as a go-to (lazy) narrative kick-starter for a game to give you motivation to play through the game to obtain a conclusion.
    Its still better than all the "All our ships are destroyed, except this Prototype" of all the horizontal shot-em-ups :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Misnomer View Post
    The "Frozen" pinnacle of feminism can't arrive in video games soon enough I suppose. Honestly, Disney has been doing it for a while, even since Pocahontas (perhaps even Cinderella).

    The solution is obviously more good looking men who are dumber than their anthropomorphized pets, but "charming" in that boyish humor way that will make them nice arm candy when heroine succeeds on her own.
    I can't claim to understand you post exactly. What I have to say is that is possible to have a world where the heroine is smart and the hero is smart. I don't like when they make one or the other dumb.

    Another Disney Princess that is awesome is bipolar Rapunzel.




    BONUS TRACK:

    Frozen princess in the language of Scheherazade's.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldhiSe22KKE
    Last edited by Tei; 27-08-2014 at 08:02 PM.

  17. #3057
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    Super Hexagon works without plot, because it's abstract to the core.
    But make for example a stealth game about thief (hehehe) and you must provide some context here, setting and motivation for your character. Why this dude is a thief? Is he poor?

    I'm playing a Dishonored right now - without plot I would probably ditch it after 1-2 missions - not because the game mechanics are bad. I'm just not that interested with murdering people for sake of murdering people.
    But put these people in the context and bam! You have my attention. I want to murder that noble lady (eh, it could be dangerous in this topic to mention ladykilling) who is making a filthy rich party full of wine, food and decadence while fellow citizens of city she lives in are dying from plague.
    Or that guy who killed the Empress that my character sworn to protect.

    BTW, I wouldn't say that Super Hexagon is mechanics heavy. It's very simple game.

  18. #3058
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Its still better than all the "All our ships are destroyed, except this Prototype" of all the horizontal shot-em-ups :D
    I'd say they're equally uncreative, although they can indeed both be varied to be interesting, but at least "Last ship saves the day!!" (which incidentally if pictured, the commander will more than likely be male) doesn't exactly have the insidious impact that "Female got captured. You, male, go rescue them!" can have if repeated so many times. The former is a little too distanced from reality to have any sort of sensible impact on our day-to-day behaviours, considering we don't tend to find ourselves every day piloting the last remaining ship in a means to save the day, whilst we do find ourselves every day being people who interact with other people.

    I think you've missed my point a little there, GameCat. Yes, Super Hexagon is abstract to its core (and certainly not mechanically heavy, but it is 100% mechanics driven and 0% narrative inclusion), but what I am saying is just how easily you could include said narrative in a manner to which many other games have done so that provide little for the game playing itself. There's also the fact that when you include humans or humanoid characters, especially if you play as one, you are going to attribute personalities and characteristics on them, deliberate or not. By including this, you're making a decision to reflect people/society in some manner unless the narrative is super removed.

    I'd also say that if you're not enjoying the mechanics in a way that keeps you entertained, it'd have to be a damn good narrative to keep me going (see: Alpha Protocol) or I'd stop playing. Mechanics should evolve or be used differently in new contexts. Adding people is a great to way to immediately impact on game mechanics, but it has to be considered and appreciated.

    Now, I haven't played Dishonored, but here's the thing; killing a female is fine (in the same way that killing a male is fine in a video game). Killing a female with no personality who is then discarded and forgotten about is not fine, unless that very point is brought up in some manner of critical examination. Consider how many male characters you kill in games and how many have distinct personalities that leave some sort of impression on you. Hell, even having a name and then compare that to women. Even having one character stop you and go "How about all those people you killed? Have you thought about them since doing so?" goes a long way to making you reflect your actions, the impacts it has on the person you killed and forgot. If they are never to be brought up again, they are simply disposable objects.

    One of my favourite things about Alpha Protocol was the inclusion of a statistic that was mechanically irrelevant. Narratively it was awesome. It was simple "Number of orphans created." Whilst this number changes depends on which mechanics you decide to take advantage of, the impact of it itself is meaningless, yet it's still a critique of your actions and gives your play-through a narrative. "This person did not care for wrecking families and had a blatant disregard for human life"/"They ensured that they succeeded at their objective with few ramifications otherwise." That this also took into account area and rough national statistics to do with family sizes was simply the icing on the cake. It was one entry in a menu, but it alone does so much.
    Last edited by The JG Man; 27-08-2014 at 08:19 PM.
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  19. #3059
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    I just started playing TWD2 yesterday after the sale from Steam.

    Really love Clementine as the main character :)

    I realize most people criticize TWD for the "lack of choice affecting the ending/what really happens* etc etc but I love how they give the player such opportunity to inject their own personality into the main character, really awesome.

    Also the graphics despite the very, very rudimentary technology (maybe?) the art design is top notch and really vivid, very much enjoying it. Just completed the first two TWD2 episodes, and only wish there were more than 3 left!

    /rambles

  20. #3060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post

    I can't claim to understand you post exactly. What I have to say is that is possible to have a world where the heroine is smart and the hero is smart. I don't like when they make one or the other dumb.

    Another Disney Princess that is awesome is bipolar Rapunzel.
    I think you got what I was saying for the most part. Disney Princess movies have never ever been a shining example of gender roles, but ever since Disney decided to reject Prince Charming this is the replacement. Of course they are not really willing to throw away the damsel thing since many female viewer seem to enjoy that so you get things like bipolar Rapunzel. A deeper character for sure, but plays into what I like to describe as "cake and eat it too" feminism where you get to be the heroine and the damsel while they guy is there to look pretty and talk to his dog horse thing.

    Sadly, this is what seems to be the demand in the media these days. Personally I much prefer the wide variety of gender roles displayed in something like Firefly (Disney came closer to this in their Atlantis movie which is actually a variation on the princess trope). Once again, that amount of variation is rarely found outside of Bioware rpg and even they are cringeworthy in their treatment of females quite often.

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