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  1. #3381
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I don't want to refer to youtube videos. I'd rather refer to the games-websites that I used to read. Unfortunately they all seem to be involved in this whole mess and refuse to write about it. As a big supporter of indie games and gender-equality, it's a break of confidence, that is difficult to come to terms with.

    Doritogate has shown that people don't react well to games journalists becoming the pawns of big game companies. But when the same happens to the indie gaming scene, everybody suddenly seems to be fine with it. We were so quick to crucify Geoff Keighley (also here on RPS), but are suddenly silent when other people are concerned.

    I don't like double-standards.

  2. #3382
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Why is it a double standard?

    I said in the other thread that there is a difference between a journalist covering an industry (who should be professionally detached) and a journalist covering a scene (who should be enthusiastically involved). I also said in the other thread that the problem is that games can be both.

  3. #3383
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    Why is it a double standard?

    I said in the other thread that there is a difference between a journalist covering an industry (who should be professionally detached) and a journalist covering a scene (who should be enthusiastically involved). I also said in the other thread that the problem is that games can be both.
    Because if we apply standards to one group of people, we should also apply these same standards to another group. Indie games are not a scene*, they have become a business, much like the triple AAA industry.

    *Except maybe the people over at Tigsource. I've got massive respect for Derek Yu, Cactus and Pixel, who are truly indie and are not involved in this money making scheme.
    Last edited by strange headache; 03-09-2014 at 02:36 PM.

  4. #3384
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    Probably they all deserve your respect... :/ :(
    Abandoned PC gaming for good. Now rest in a better place. psn:Teikman

  5. #3385
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Probably they all deserve your respect... :/ :(
    I've just been disillusioned I guess...

    By the way, Paul Hubans is in the very process of being publicly destroyed because he dared to tweet about the same video that I just linked to. How is this OK?

    I wonder about RPS' stance on the whole IGF debacle, since they wrote about this before criticizing the same thing.

    And by the way, here is an old article by Jenn Frank, who is telling people to "fuck themselves" for being critical about something related to IGF. Maya Kramer, PR of Silverstring Media is one of Jenn Frank's patreons.
    Last edited by strange headache; 03-09-2014 at 03:06 PM.

  6. #3386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    They probably are a insultar community. They know each other. And they have a easier time promoting the people they know that maybe a indie developer from UK or france. Nothing bad with that, thats humans for you.
    For better or worse, probably worse, they are insular. The IGF alone for years has seen complaints based around how connected judges are to various entrants and particularly to winners. If you expand outward from there, you are going to find the same kinds of connections between developers, journalists, site owners, and others. It is part of the nature of how new small communities form and grow. While the indie game community has existed alongside the history of computers, the Indie Game Community is a more recent construct built around certain ideas and certain figures, with a lot of people who know each other and have influence with each other.

    And since money is involved, some people are going to get rich through their connections.
    Last edited by Baines; 03-09-2014 at 03:25 PM.

  7. #3387
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    I've just been disillusioned I guess...

    By the way, Paul Hubans is in the very process of being publicly destroyed because he dared to tweet about the same video that I just linked to. How is this OK?

    I wonder about RPS' stance on the whole IGF debacle, since they wrote about this before criticizing the same thing.

    And by the way, here is an old article by Jenn Frank, who is telling people to "fuck themselves" for being critical about something related to IGF. Maya Kramer, PR of Silverstring Media is one of Jenn Frank's patreons.
    Jenn generally is lovely though.

    Look, the problem I have with all of this is that: yes, people are people. Thatll never change. Friends will give friends jobs and all of that. You grow attached to things, then maybe they turn out to be bastards but you still like em.


    Also, there is no such thing as game journalism, but Ive been saying that for way too long now.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  8. #3388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    I really dislike these "men suffer too" speeches. Yes, they do. Nobody ever questioned that. It's classic whataboutism, trying to detract from one problem by pointing out a similar yet ultimately unrelated problem.
    And it's even more nakedly dishonest given that feminists have always said men suffer under patriarchy. "Feminists want to tear down the patriarchy, but the patriarchy hurts me as a man as much as it hurts them! That's why I hate feminists!"

  9. #3389
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    What we have to do is to pay attention to indies from other parts of the world.
    Indies in UK, indies in France, indies in Italy, indies in Chile, indies in Russia, indies in Poland, indies in Denmark, indies in Australia.

    I think RPS already do his part, has RPS give articles to indies from around the world. Maybe is harder for RPS to see what people is interesting from outside the anglosaxon world, but they still report on poeple like these Chile guys making the weird subreal games, or that spanish guy that made that platformer game (Ungame or something).

    Indies in San Francisco also need our help, but they are somewhat overrepresented because they have build for themselves a rich ecosystem. They live at walk distance of Google, or Sony or Microsoft. They may even drink cafee in the same starbuck one of the guys that decided to buy Twich for one billion of dollars. So they have access for that potential mountain of resources and power. Money is a enabler, lack of money is a suppressor. .... but I digress.
    Last edited by Tei; 03-09-2014 at 05:36 PM.
    Abandoned PC gaming for good. Now rest in a better place. psn:Teikman

  10. #3390
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperfez View Post
    And it's even more nakedly dishonest given that feminists have always said men suffer under patriarchy. "Feminists want to tear down the patriarchy, but the patriarchy hurts me as a man as much as it hurts them! That's why I hate feminists!"
    Yes, but a paragraph in Feminism 101 doesn't compensate for the notable lack of attention feminists actually devote to issues facing boys and men. As more insightful feminist commentaries on the MRA movement point out, that movement also systematically fails to address these problems (which is all the worse given that they are the ostensible reason for the movement's existence) and in fact largely makes them worse by pushing regressive notions of masculinity. But again, this does not excuse the failures of the feminist community itself.

    One of the few Kickstarter projects I've ever backed is for this documentary, which I am still very much looking forward to. But even as it is laudable for engaging with the issues that boys face in society, it also highlights a problematic divide. Simply put, the men who are routinely characterised as 'the enemy' (or at least 'the problem') were once these boys with whom we are being asked to empathise. Question: why does that empathy seem to disappear at age 16 or thereabouts?
    Last edited by Lethe; 03-09-2014 at 05:46 PM.

  11. #3391
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Look, the problem I have with all of this is that: yes, people are people. Thatll never change. Friends will give friends jobs and all of that. You grow attached to things, then maybe they turn out to be bastards but you still like em.
    I may not be only a gamer, but I am also a gamer and as such I mostly care about games, not people's friendships. But if my attention is not drawn to good but obscure indie games, that I may otherwise have missed, but is rather directed to games made by friends, only to make said friends rich, I object.

    If said games are promoted under the veil of feminism, it not only hurts the credibility of those reporting on said games, but also damages the the cause for gender-equality.

    If I cannot trust my website of choice to promote "good" games instead of "my friends' games", I need to look somewhere else to be informed about new games.

    I truly want to support indie gaming, but I refuse to support one narrowly defined clique of people with the intent of making money. I want to support indie games that I enjoy and that includes every indie developer out there.

    That's why I want every indie developer to have the same chances on having his game promoted, based on the quality of the game and not based on his relationships in the industry.

    Basically what Tei said:
    What we have to do is to pay attention to indies from other parts of the world.
    Indies in UK, indies in France, indies in Italy, indies in Chile, indies in Russia, indies in Poland, indies in Denmark, indies in Australia.

  12. #3392
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    @Tei

    You'll find the same thing. Little indie events and game jams in any city have a small set of people who go, present and cover them. Because there's only going to be ~100 (maybe) people in a large city who are making indy games, covering them and so on. Oddly they all get to know each other and form cliques.

    The music scene in a city is normally similar, the journalists, promoters and bands all playing the same locations, festivals etc. It's just life. Publishers and authors are similar again. I'd sort of expect all the hat shop owners in the same place to probably know each other as well. Any small enough industry sector / sub-sector is going to be like that.

    When people look for new jobs they look at places where they live with similar skillsets, people make friends at work and people date people they meet at parties.

  13. #3393
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    That's why I want every indie developer to have the same chances on having his game promoted, based on the quality of the game and not based on his relationships in the industry.
    It's safe to say that this is impossible. The best you can hope for is to identify systematic patterns of exclusion and favouritism and to campaign for those issues to be addressed.
    Last edited by Lethe; 03-09-2014 at 05:44 PM.

  14. #3394
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    It's safe to say that this is impossible. The best you can hope for is to identify systematic patterns of certain developers, types of games, etc. being excluded from the discourse and to campaign for those issues to be addressed.
    I think that's what a lot of people are trying to do actually. And I agree that it's impossible, but it certainly represents an ideal that we should strive after. It doesn't mean that only because "it's impossible", we should be fatalist and not even try (platonic ideals and stuff...).

    That's like saying: "True gender-equality is impossible, there will always be sexist people, so let's just drop the whole thing."

  15. #3395
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    You need a group of people to make good games!

    Its rare to find a person that can be at the same time programmer, musician and graphic artist. So people with different skills join to make games.

    Programmers are very cooperative, they form groups and they share ideas and solutions, they are all the time teaching, and they share what they are learning with others, they share code, and sometimes they help each other directly. Thats why open source was invented.

    Promotion is another thing that is hard. AAA games decide to put a % of the budget in marketing. Maybe a 20%, so from 100 million dollars, they use 20 million for marketing. Thats a lot of adds, a lot of banners, a lot of keywords, a few travels, maybe a small group of people traveling around the world, doing interviews and things. A indie game can't do that, but maybe he can pay his own travel ticket to other city, and sleep in some friend home, stay there that night, and return with a train. And that would be maybe 400$ that somehow she or her may never return, but he had a lot of fun, made new friends and made himself more know to others. Having somebody that give you a room, so you don't have to find a hotel, may be BIG for this type of people.

    I would hate to be part of a forum that has decided to hate indies. It will also be absurd.
    Last edited by Tei; 03-09-2014 at 05:49 PM.
    Abandoned PC gaming for good. Now rest in a better place. psn:Teikman

  16. #3396
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    It's emotionally inefficient to hate anyone not realistically able to cause you harm.

    If you are from the UK consider hating BNP and UKIP who would cause the country harm out of spite. Or.. Terrorist and such...
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  17. #3397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    One of the few Kickstarter projects I've ever backed is for this documentary, which I am still very much looking forward to. But even as it is laudable for engaging with the issues that 'boys' face in society, it also highlights a problematic divide. Simply put, the men who are characterised as 'the enemy' (or at least 'the problem') were once these boys with whom we are being asked to empathise. Question: why does that empathy seem to disappear at age 16 or thereabouts?
    Because it's easier to excuse a teenaged fuckwit. Boys and men are probably equally likely to reinforce gender behaviour that harms them (and others!), but it's harder for us to see an adult's behaviour as not their fault. Just my guess.

    Anyway, it's important to keep in mind that feminists (honest and sane feminists?) wouldn't tell you that feminism will benefit men as much as it will benefit women. Men and the behaviours we consider manly are priviledged: they get payed more, they get taken seriously, they are considered the norm. Making genders and gendered behaviours equal is not meant to benefit hegemonic men. It would be good news for men who don't fit masculine behaviour (anything from gay men to stay-at-home dads) and it would be good news for women; and perhaps there would be marginal benefits to men in general (lowered suicide rates) but for the men who are currently expressing their masculinity in the correct way and thus getting to oppress everyone else, the price for being able to talk about their feelings would be not getting to oppress everyone else​.

  18. #3398
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    That's because you'd talk about justice and not individual benefit unless you're a neo-liberal prat. I know lots of people are neo-liberal these days, but really. Giving working men the vote wasn't to the benefit of the rich, but who the fuck cares? It's a silly way to phrase a discussion.

    Sorry that wasn't really disagreeing with a point and more just being annoyed at neo-liberalism.

    Same goes for this empathy lark I guess. Worrying about individuals doesn't really seem to be the point.

  19. #3399
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperfez View Post
    And it's even more nakedly dishonest given that feminists have always said men suffer under patriarchy. "Feminists want to tear down the patriarchy, but the patriarchy hurts me as a man as much as it hurts them! That's why I hate feminists!"
    I don't think it is quite fair to always characterize it that way. The complaint from some more rational parties would be that radical feminists are not about the patriarchy at all, but forwarding women's interests with disregard for others.

    That is where recognizing other people's issues makes a difference. If you are not changing the system as a whole, but simply trying to get one group identified as being more deserving of the system's attention and resources, then a competition to see who is the best victim will ensue.

    It also shows the difficulty of Sarkeesian's connection of game tropes to the outside world. If you were to create something about male tropes, it would probably outnumber the number of female tropes you will find (partially due to Sarkeesian's own point that sexism in games lead to fewer females in games).

    If it is true that their are more harmful male tropes, then Sarkeesian's suggested connection to real culture means that video games are a greater propagators of harmful attitudes toward men. Of course that sounds absurd, and probably is absurd because in terms of real damage it is hard to see a predominantly volunteer predominantly male military in the world as being victims, even when you factor in something like PTSD. This seems especially absurd when you are comparing them to victims of sexual abuse or human trafficking. So, don't expect that male tropes video anytime soon, no matter how prevalent they are, because it is just not the same level of victimhood by social standards.

    Still, I do think we should be wary of these "whoever is the best victim gets the most attention" type discussions. A systematic approach should be better for everyone.
    Last edited by Misnomer; 03-09-2014 at 06:05 PM.

  20. #3400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Cap View Post
    Because it's easier to excuse a teenaged fuckwit. Boys and men are probably equally likely to reinforce gender behaviour that harms them (and others!), but it's harder for us to see an adult's behaviour as not their fault. Just my guess.
    Sure. I don't expect feminists (or anyone else) to return love for hate, but it would be nice to see more attention devoted to addressing the underlying structural problems that fuel such sentiments, instead of merely gleefully smacking down the symptoms. It's not only an ethical point, but a tactical one also. Hamas will never be defeated by Israeli air strikes, and MRAs will never be beaten by calling them names and (to borrow a phrase) shitting on them from a great height. Undermining the pillars of their support, however...
    Last edited by Lethe; 03-09-2014 at 06:45 PM.

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