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  1. #3401
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    But to what in the thread is the video responding?
    The tenet that "Women are historically undervalued" is integral to feminism and Sarkeesian's videos. It's integral to a lot of replies in this thread. Consider, for instance, this recent comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Cap View Post
    but for the men who are currently expressing their masculinity in the correct way and thus getting to oppress everyone else, the price for being able to talk about their feelings would be not getting to oppress everyone else​.
    That one just doesn't work in the context of "Men are historically undervalued." I can't speak for cardinaldirection and what specifically prompted him or her to post that, but it's hardly a non-sequitur.

  2. #3402
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel- View Post
    In my opinion these feminists need to get over. Gaming is Man's hobby and should always be.
    girls can play JRPG, platformers, barbie games they like. we dont mind.
    finally, someone that can say it like it is.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  3. #3403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel- View Post
    In my opinion these feminists need to get over. Gaming is Man's hobby and should always be.
    girls can play JRPG, platformers, barbie games they like. we dont mind.
    My sister was a avid oGame gamer (with all, even fleetsaving), and my other sister was a terrible FarmVille fan.

    Womens enjoy games as much as us, sometimes they like more one genre than others, so we don't like videogames the same way.

    Theres nothing phisical that make for womens hard to play games, and they seem to deride fun from fun games.

    I don't want to say "What are you, 12 years old?", but your post practically ask for it.
    Last edited by Tei; 03-09-2014 at 08:28 PM.

  4. #3404
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    My sister was a avid oGame gamer (with all, even fleetsaving), and my sister was a terrible FarmVille fan.

    Womens enjoy games as much as us, sometimes they like more one genre than others, so we don't like videogames the same way.

    Theres nothing phisical that make for womens hard to play games, and they seem to deride fun from fun games.

    I don't want to say "What are you, 12 years old?", but your post practically ask for it.
    pssst, you missed the thing where hes banned and never coming back.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  5. #3405
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    It's a trap even otherwise rational people have fallen into, though. There is an argument that gaming (or at least 'core' gaming) is a predominantly male pursuit. It's appealing because it is fact-based, and not merely an emotional outburst.

    The thing is, the problem with that argument isn't whether or not it's factually accurate; it's that it's tantamount to saying "It's ok for games to alienate women because games alienate women." That's not an argument. The fact that something is true can never be evidence that it should be true.

  6. #3406
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    Simply put, the men who are routinely characterised as 'the enemy' (or at least 'the problem') were once these boys with whom we are being asked to empathise. Question: why does that empathy seem to disappear at age 16 or thereabouts?
    Perhaps because everybody has some sort of issue that he or she would rather not have to deal with, but rather than wallowing in them they get up every morning and get stuff done regardless. Or maybe because age 16 is the kind of age where a lot of people realize that just as they don't really care about the 'masculinity' of that guy in the back of the class, others similarly don't really care about theirs either. It is, in other words, not really that important.

    I agree with Misnomer that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Misnomer View Post
    we should be wary of these "whoever is the best victim gets the most attention" type discussions.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  7. #3407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misnomer View Post
    I don't think it is quite fair to always characterize it that way. The complaint from some more rational parties would be that radical feminists are not about the patriarchy at all, but forwarding women's interests with disregard for others.
    Except that's not rational, because, for all intents and purposes, no one is a radical feminist. And even among actual radical feminists, a vanishing few were ever proponents of female domination. Radical feminism just means a commitment to the idea that patriarchal systems of dominance (including of low-status men by high-status men) are at the root of all oppression - this is a highly dubious claim, but it has nothing to do with hating men more or less.

    Still, I do think we should be wary of these "whoever is the best victim gets the most attention" type discussions. A systematic approach should be better for everyone.
    It's not a zero-sum game though! Sarkeesian getting people talking about gender stereotyping of women will only make it easier to discuss gender stereotyping of men (by those who actually want to, as opposed to those who are just trying to derail the conversation). Indeed, we're talking about it right now! I'm sure you won't hear any feminist critic complain about an examination of men and masculinity in gaming (again, provided it's not just an excuse to tell women to shut up). It's definitely not a feminist project to deny that men can be victimized.

  8. #3408
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    I just saw a fragment of the tropes vs women thing. dear lord. dear. lord.

    I am all for a more balanced content, in any form, but blaming violent games for there being only bad interactions with women in games? even if just partially? Oh dear.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #3409
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    The tenet that "Women are historically undervalued" is integral to feminism and Sarkeesian's videos. It's integral to a lot of replies in this thread. Consider, for instance, this recent comment:
    I do not think it is a central tenet of either of those two things.

    Sarkeesian's videos are not about the grand arc of all history but rather considers a wide selection of specific valuations within gaming.

    Feminism doesn't always rely on the idea of women being historically "undervalued." It always relies on the idea that women are presently mistreated as a class; beyond that pretty much anything goes, and has gone.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  10. #3410
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    I just saw a fragment of the tropes vs women thing. dear lord. dear. lord.

    I am all for a more balanced content, in any form, but blaming violent games for there being only bad interactions with women in games? even if just partially? Oh dear.
    Good thing that's not what she's doing, then.

    EDIT just in case it'll actually do any good: she's really not. "The vast majority of violent games that feature women only include them in order to be killed/victimised/demeaned etc., etc." is not the same thing as "Violent games feature women being killed/victimised/demeaned etc., etc. because they're violent games".
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 04-09-2014 at 08:56 AM.

  11. #3411
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    I just saw a fragment of the tropes vs women thing. dear lord. dear. lord.

    I am all for a more balanced content, in any form, but blaming violent games for there being only bad interactions with women in games? even if just partially? Oh dear.
    It is blaming bad writing. The player must have a reason for hating this NPC, so let's have him murder a prostitute.

  12. #3412
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    It is blaming bad writing. The player must have a reason for hating this NPC, so let's have him murder a prostitute.
    Why should I hate a prostitute? Does she kicks puppies or something?

  13. #3413
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Good thing that's not what she's doing, then.

    EDIT just in case it'll actually do any good: she's really not. "The vast majority of violent games that feature women only include them in order to be killed/victimised/demeaned etc., etc." is not the same thing as "Violent games feature women being killed/victimised/demeaned etc., etc. because they're violent games".
    Yes she does, I can link you to the time stamp and everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_...sf9yP61#t=1193
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  14. #3414
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    Why should I hate a prostitute? Does she kicks puppies or something?
    No the NPC you hate is the one that murders the prostitute NPC.

  15. #3415
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    No the NPC you hate is the one that murders the prostitute NPC.
    Ah, right. I've misread your post.

  16. #3416
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    Why should I hate a prostitute? Does she kicks puppies or something?
    - religious reasons (the book say this and that)
    - sanitarians reasons (STD's)
    - ethical challenges (sex is too personal to sell it)
    - war of sex reasons (they sort of weaken womens position)
    - estheticall reasons ( old prostitutes are ugly )

    Like abortion, their very existence is already a challenge. Everyone (except sociopath) have a moral compass, but every direction seems troubling, and some agendas (like the religious one) are disgusting.

    Then you have womens that all they want in life is to marry. And some arguee that that is prostitution with only one customer.

  17. #3417
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel- View Post
    girls can play JRPG
    TAKE THAT BACK! I wouldn't wish JRPG's on anyone, jeez man.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  18. #3418
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    - religious reasons (the book say this and that)
    Thank God (hehe) I don't read these books, but yeah, you're right with this one.

    - sanitarians reasons (STD's)
    If a guy wants to have sex with prostitute and he isn't using some protection, well... He's stupid.
    I would rather hate girl/boy who cheat on their partners with people that could have been infected with HIV.
    There were once a case like that where one guy, immigrant from some African country knew that he have HIV but that didn't stopped him to have sex with some girls. When these girls wanted to use condom he accused them for beign racist, lol.

    - ethical challenges (sex is too personal to sell it)
    If she wants to sell sex, why should I care? (of course if she isn't my girlfriend/wife/daughter/friend).
    If she doesn't want but she's forced to do that then I would pity her, not hate her.

    - war of sex reasons (they sort of weaken womens position)
    Well, this is right, but not for me personally. See "why should I care?".

    - estheticall reasons ( old prostitutes are ugly )
    I'm sure everyone know (or even they are) at least one ugly person. But hating that person for beign ugly is disgusting. Don't do that kids.

  19. #3419
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    TAKE THAT BACK! I wouldn't wish JRPG's on anyone, jeez man.
    ilikejrpgs
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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