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  1. #21
    Activated Node Delusibeta's Avatar
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    I'm going to be blunt here: it's a dramatic reading of TVTropes. There isn't much here that isn't on the relevant TVTropes pages. Bonus points for shooting her argument in the foot by invoking Tropes Are Not Bad, too.

  2. #22
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    Have to agree that the "Damsel" has fallen out of favour but her other topics sound more relevant to modern gaming.
    “People will kill you over time, and how they’ll kill you is with tiny, harmless phrases, like “be realistic”
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  3. #23
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    I was just really bored. Its nothing new or interesting, its pretty tame as feminism goes, and its not going to convince misogynists of anything. Its basically just a list of damsels in distress in video games.

    I agree with the idea, both of this specific video and of women vs tropes in general but, the execution fails.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus bonkers's Avatar
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    Watched the whole thing. Not much I would disagree with, actually quiet contrary. I think she did her research pretty well.
    But I think she kinda messed up the min19-21 part with the remakes. That's... not so good. I can see what she wanted to get at put the presentation of that part is rather crappy. It lacks the rather neutral stance and choice of words of the previous scenes.
    Last edited by bonkers; 07-03-2013 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kodeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Well us mature people of the future have progressed to the much better "kill evil towelheads" trope.
    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    The "kill evil towelheads" trope that includes no female characters whatsoever? Not really a separate thing, that.
    So ... Lets kill female towelheads?

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodeen View Post
    So ... Lets kill female towelheads?
    Not sure if damsels or targets. Better kill them to be on the safe side.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    So we can agree we need a new McGuffin that doesn't get people offended. Suggestions? I just deleted a highly cynic post with one.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what exactly the purpose of this is; if the idea is just to list video game tropes then fair enough, but if it's supposed to support a deeper discussion it's not doing a very good job of it. The only thing the video really shows is that Miyamoto is terrible at characterisation, which I'm pretty sure we already know, that video games are often dumb and remakes of old games are still as dumb as the games that spawned them. A video discussing causation rather than just listing examples would be more interesting, but perhaps that's not what's on the agenda.

    So yeah, meh.
    Last edited by Skalpadda; 07-03-2013 at 11:53 PM.

  9. #29
    Okay, I now know what irks me about this video. It's "Women in Storytelling". Well great, what do video games as a unique medium have to do with that?

  10. #30
    Network Hub Dead Herald's Avatar
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    Three minutes in and my brain is already booking tickets on a one-way flight to Jamaica.

    All I keep thinking here as she goes on this rote, tepid meandering about female disempowerment is "IS THE GAME STILL GOOD!?" She said the game looked pretty cool before. It certainly looked like it was worth a go, it still looks pretty good in the finished product. Okay, they reworked the characters to shoehorn an established IP to boost sales, but that's pretty much par for the course for Nintendo. You'd have to be a rank dullard not to know that by now. Or you'd have to be Anita Sarkeesian and go around common sense to in your endless quest to find misogyny where it doesn't exist.

    Sorry, three minutes is all I can give her. Her face, her voice and the fact that she lectures game designers on game design just makes me want to vomit. I certainly hope those game designers give her all the credence she deserves, I.E. none. Congratulations to anyone who actually donated to her in the kickstarter fiasco. I hope you're enjoying that super sized meal of buyer's remorse right now.

    Just as a quick aside, I'm not a misogynist in any way. But I also do not believe the artist should be beholden to the censor. In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you.

    I should probably go back real quick and downvote her though. Since she disabled comments.

    Edit: Never mind, she disabled those too. What a fucking brat.

    P.S. Does anyone know how to use strikes on this forum, or if you can?
    Last edited by Dead Herald; 07-03-2013 at 11:57 PM.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Herald View Post
    Sorry, three minutes is all I can give her.
    Too bad, it really picks up around the 24 minute mark.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Herald View Post

    Just as a quick aside, I'm not a misogynist in any way. But I also do not believe the artist should be beholden to the censor. In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you.
    I think this and the comment on telling game designers about game design are both misrepresentations of the point. It's fairly clear in her opening statement that these aren't bad or unfun games necessarily.

    Anyway artists aren't beholden to a censor but neither do they exist in a vacuum. They live within society like the rest of us as do critics. However this capitalist view isn't exactly one that the rest of us hold to, the only way to judge art is by voting with their dollar? By that understanding the greatest piece of art ever, for a while, was James Cameron's Titanic. I doubt anybody uses that as their measuring stick for art.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Herald View Post
    Just as a quick aside, I'm not a misogynist in any way. But I also do not believe the artist should be beholden to the censor. In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you.
    2 things:
    "I'm not a misogynist in any way."
    Said every misogynist ever. Not even getting into the fact that not being, personally, a misogynist, doesn't mean you don't aid and abet misogynist systems. But then we've already established in the other thread that you are stupid.

    "In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you."
    Justin Bieber says hi. You better go listen to JBiebs while watching Twilight according to this logic. Why listen to and watch content that just isn't as good?

    Actually a 3rd thing:
    I agree that the video sucks and is boring. But not for the reasons you do.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    She tells an interesting tale, if for no other reason than that it's a nice trip down memory lane, and I have to agree with some of the earlier posters that I don't find much to disagree with - I just don't think the described situation is really all that much of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodeen View Post
    So ... Lets kill female towelheads?
    Let's not ruin the mood by bringing up the implications of the huge imbalance of violence towards men in games and other media. If women are the metaphorical ball, simply used in a competition between men as the author of the video suggests, then the pins in this deadly game of bowling must surely be huge numbers of nameless men lined up for what is usually pointless slaughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Herald View Post
    In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you.
    I agree.There's such an amazing variety of games already on the market, as well as methods to publish new games, that I think there's room enough for all kinds of tastes to be catered to.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  15. #35
    Network Hub Dead Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Too bad, it really picks up around the 24 minute mark.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I think this and the comment on telling game designers about game design are both misrepresentations of the point. It's fairly clear in her opening statement that these aren't bad or unfun games necessarily.

    Anyway artists aren't beholden to a censor but neither do they exist in a vacuum. They live within society like the rest of us as do critics. However this capitalist view isn't exactly one that the rest of us hold to, the only way to judge art is by voting with their dollar? By that understanding the greatest piece of art ever, for a while, was James Cameron's Titanic. I doubt anybody uses that as their measuring stick for art.
    You're assuming the system is foolproof, it's not. Even considering that, Titanic is hardly the worst movie ever made or even a bad movie really. Your mileage may vary, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    2 things:
    "I'm not a misogynist in any way."
    Said every misogynist ever. Not even getting into the fact that not being, personally, a misogynist, doesn't mean you don't aid and abet misogynist systems. But then we've already established in the other thread that you are stupid.

    "In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you."
    Justin Bieber says hi. You better go listen to JBiebs while watching Twilight according to this logic. Why listen to and watch content that just isn't as good?

    Actually a 3rd thing:
    I agree that the video sucks and is boring. But not for the reasons you do.
    I put in the disclaimer because I was certain someone would wrongly accuse me of misogyny. I'm hardly surprised it was you.

    Please stop talking to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    She tells an interesting tale, if for no other reason than that it's a nice trip down memory lane, and I have to agree with some of the earlier posters that I don't find much to disagree with - I just don't think the described situation is really all that much of a problem.


    Let's not ruin the mood by bringing up the implications of the huge imbalance of violence towards men in games and other media. If women are the metaphorical ball, simply used in a competition between men as the author of the video suggests, then the pins in this deadly game of bowling must surely be huge numbers of nameless men lined up for what is usually pointless slaughter.


    I agree.There's such an amazing variety of games already on the market, as well as methods to publish new games, that I think there's room enough for all kinds of tastes to be catered to.
    You know they had a DS game where Peach rescued Mario. It sold reasonably well, so Tropes can be inverted. Tropes exist because they're story mechanics that usually work and people identify with them. Railing against tropes the way Sarkeesian does is like standing on the shore in front of a massive tidal wave yelling, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"

  16. #36
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    I wonder how much the damsel-in-distress thing is genre dependent. I've seen a lot of people on RPS pretty much taking it as obvious that most women in video games are captives or most captives in video games are women or something like that. But as someone who plays primarily strategy games and western RPGs, I've rescued (and been rescued by) so many different people of all types that it would be a really huge effort for me to analyse whether the underlying trends are significantly slanted one way or the other.

    I mean, this week I've been playing 4 gamebooks (physical games, but similar to the sorts of video game that I play). So far I've recued three men from captivity, one woman from a monster, been imprisoned once, enslaved once, and rescued from a huge monster by a dwarf in a digging machine. This sort of stuff just happens every five minutes!
    Last edited by NathanH; 08-03-2013 at 12:36 AM.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post

    "In the end, the greatest and most effective critic is the consumer, who votes with their dollars or yen or euros or what have you."
    Justin Bieber says hi. You better go listen to JBiebs while watching Twilight according to this logic. Why listen to and watch content that just isn't as good?
    Why does a critic communicate his thoughts on a subject? Isn't the judgment supposed to be in service of the general public?
    When the public clearly disagrees with the critics, then isn't their job worthless? Aren't they just preaching to their fellow critics?
    I find movie and music criticism useless. The critics are no longer in service of the public, but of their own closed caste. The people scream they like Transformers, POTC and Taken 2, while critics are the equivalent of the "stop having fun" stickman. Dollars are a bad way to measure success because mathematics/economy, but generally it's really obvious what people like and what they don't.
    At least game criticism has entertainment value thanks to its universal shittiness.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    So I gave her a shot. I really did.
    0:00 - Okay, she's said some ridiculous stuff before but hey, I'll give her some of my time.
    1:00 - Please don't just list a bunch of tropes.
    2:00 - Alright they changed the game... not really sure why this is a big deal yet.
    9:00 - Yes Nintendo are using the same crap again and again, I know.
    13:00 - Screw it, you're just listing tropes, I'm going to watch that guy connect his tongue to AC and DC circuits.

    I'm not a fan of hers nor am I part of the violent opposition - from what I've seen of her work her arguments frequently draw pretty long bows or fail to establish any sort of relevance or major point. Maybe she's saving her arguments for the next part, or maybe she's dialing it down now that she's in the spotlight. I don't know, but for all the hype and rage over this thing, this video was bad. It should have spent 5 minutes listing examples of this trope, then got into whatever her point is. If I was a backer, I'd like to know where she's spent the money.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delusibeta View Post
    I'm going to be blunt here: it's a dramatic reading of TVTropes.
    Pretty much this. Yeah, I get that it's a two-part thing, but I'm really not interested in how many games use the damsel in distress thing, I'm acutely aware of this fact, as well as the fact that it's been going on for a while. I'm interested in what her problem is with all of this, why she thinks it's bad, what she wants to change, or hell anything other than "Let's spend the next 24 minutes listing tropes."

    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I was just really bored. Its nothing new or interesting, its pretty tame as feminism goes, and its not going to convince misogynists of anything. Its basically just a list of damsels in distress in video games. I agree with the idea, both of this specific video and of women vs tropes in general but, the execution fails.
    You know what it reminds me of? Those "My Top 5 Moments in Gaming!" Youtube vids that 14 year old kids like to make. It really makes me wonder why she needed a Kickstarter to do this, because so far there's nothing particularly special about it at all. It's something you could have knocked up in your spare time. There's really little feminist content in here, it's just a goddamn list, and it's delivered in a remarkably prosaic way. "I'm bored" sums up the entire thing.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    Why does a critic communicate his thoughts on a subject? Isn't the judgment supposed to be in service of the general public?
    When the public clearly disagrees with the critics, then isn't their job worthless? Aren't they just preaching to their fellow critics?
    I find movie and music criticism useless. The critics are no longer in service of the public, but of their own closed caste. The people scream they like Transformers, POTC and Taken 2, while critics are the equivalent of the "stop having fun" stickman. Dollars are a bad way to measure success because mathematics/economy, but generally it's really obvious what people like and what they don't.
    At least game criticism has entertainment value thanks to its universal shittiness.
    Porn is arguably the most popular genre in film, and certainly the most popular in photography. And hell, romance novels are the most popular genre in literature, and a significant fraction exist only for the purposes of eroticism. Does that mean that the porn genre is the best in those 3 mediums?

    What is good and what people like are are not the same thing. Especially in music where what sells is totally based on the physical appearance of the singer. They could be a mediocre singer with mediocre songs but if its pretty people of the opposite sex singing about sex or love then people will buy it.

    Just because you like something doesn't mean its good for you. And generally the shitty stuff takes over the market.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Two, I don't see why this needed to be kickstarted based on this episode. The production value is pretty basic, she's sat infront of a blue screen for the entire thing and has a few images pop up and some screen wipes to videos.
    Well she only asked for $6000, which is probably about right to hire a camera, camera operator and blue screen for a bit?

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