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  1. #821
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    That's basically arguing in favour of prolefeed. Corporations (publishers/developers) are basically saying that they're making cultural output by spreadsheet and asking you to thank them for it.

    I refuse.
    Last edited by Serenegoose; 21-03-2013 at 05:58 PM.

  2. #822
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Blonde female as a sex object or brunette female as a sex object. Wow... spoiled for f*cking choice, aren't we.

    If you're not going to bother to read back through the thread, then I don't think people should really bother to explain to you things that have already been covered, at least once, in the thread.
    That's not even close to the case. There is actual variety, stop being blinded by your own white knightery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Yes, but not enough. Sorry.
    There's not enough <insert anything I like> either, that's not an argument for more of it, this is a business.

  3. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    That's not even close to the case. There is actual variety, stop being blinded by your own white knightery.



    There's not enough <insert anything I like> either, that's not an argument for more of it, this is a business.

    It's like you're actually playing off that bingo card I linked a few pages back.

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    That's not even close to the case. There is actual variety, stop being blinded by your own white knightery.



    There's not enough <insert anything I like> either, that's not an argument for more of it, this is a business.
    this is a business is Turkeys arguing for christmas.

    No project of passion has ever been bettered by the thought 'but would a male character sell better'. no great work of art was ever designed by marketing to show their shareholders.

  5. #825
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    The problem with your virtual child porn analogy is that the type of games we are talking about also happen to be the most popular and best selling games. I don't even see how this is a problem for gaming or the game industry. I find it hard to believe that any more than a small vocal minority of women who play games even give a shit about this. Most of the girls I've played games with wanted their characters to look cute in MMOs and went out fo their way to make them look that way. Anecdotal, I know, but whatever.

    People are trying to make something become something it's not here. Action games with cheesy stories are going to have cheesy stories and sexually appealing characters, just like other forms of media. There are more seriously toned mainstream games out there that let you be whatever you want, like Skyrim. You can make a female hero in Skyrim clad in actual armor and not some kind of bikini armor, save the world from evil dragons, or do whatever the fuck you want.

    There are options out there for everyone's tastes. You don't need to get rid of one thing to have the other. There are already plenty of games out there that aren't full of scantly clad women. You have to take things for what they are, you don't watch The Terminator and then bash it for not being more like Gone with the Wind. Why do that with games? You have cheesy blockbuster action games and then you have games that are more than that.

    Why would someone even feel uncomfortable when playing these kinds of games? Should we have clothing manufacturers stop making miniskirts too because they are offensive to women? I don't even get it.
    You didn't really respond to what I see as the crux of the problem--the intersection of sexual discrimination at large, special sexual discrimination within gaming, and these otherwise harmless albeit gendered tropes.

    You keep coming back to ideas about taking games away and about there being alternatives. In your very first sentence, you identify my exact point: the sorts of games I'm talking about happen to be some of the most popular. Just like the intersection of gaming and violence, in a sense the games industry doesn't look all that oriented towards violence ... but it's certainly at the fore-front of gaming culture. Just so, whether or not sexism pervades more or all games, it's at the forefront of gaming culture. Whether or not there are (even quite popular) games that aren't sexist, that don't marginalize female gamers or perpetuate problematic gender stereotypes for either gender ... enough really, really popular ones do that such attitudes have become the public face of gaming. Perhaps this is unfair. We didn't ask for this, after all; plenty of us gamers are perfectly cool with female gamers and perfectly cool with games that use fewer stupid tropes and so on. But that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

    Your last paragraph strikes me as somewhat lacking in empathy. If we're relying on anecdotes: I have friends who were made uncomfortable by games I've introduced them to, or played in their presence. I'm fairly aware of media representations and tropes and such, but I'm also used to playing games; the result is whether it makes them uncomfortable or excited, things I tend to ignore (by training or happenstance) stick out to non-gamers instantly. These include simple things like how dumb re-spawning enemies and random loot drops seem out of context. But the gendered representation of characters, in my experience, sticks out a lot to non-gamers. I'm sure part of it is the circles I walk in, so I'd rather not rely on anecdotes for either of our arguments, but it's something I've noticed consistently. When I press for why it makes people uncomfortable, they usually don't have a particularly logical answer--it just looks awkward, or why did it have to be a girl or it's stupid, or it's not realistic. Shitty arguments, on the surface. But they come from people who have to deal with real social discriminations and they represent real discomfort (I'm not thinking about all the times I or someone else has made meta-commentary on the problematic nature of this trope or that design choice); those pressures cause emotional responses to otherwise entirely fantastical scenarios seemingly disconnected from real life, responses that can be undesirable in cheap, entertaining fantasy. One friend of mine expressed her discomfort with a number of otherwise fun games in a way similar to that I've proposed earlier: in terms of being tired of being bombarded with the kinds of imagery that kept coming up; it got exhausting and redundant and felt shitty en masse rather than piece by piece.

    If we aren't relying on anecdotes: I've presented some ideas about how the context in which games are happening might cause people to be uncomfortable when experiencing these tropes. But in addition to your preceding failure to address the more relevant points, your tone makes you seem stubbornly uninterested in exploring this mode of experience. Perhaps I've misjudged your tone (yay, text), but I'm not really sure there's much left to be said if so uninterested in exploring the other side.

    I don't want to get rid of scantily clad women. That would be just another side of the same problem I'm calling out here. Please stop referring back to that argument as though it has been made--it hasn't. Not by me, at least, and not that I've read here. This goes right back to my first post--one of my problems with gendered tropes in games is that they are clung to with a stubbornness I don't see in discussions about a lot of other shitty gaming tropes. Suggesting it's silly or problematic gets a contingency of folks up in arms as though the king's tax man is coming to collect a third of their scarcely-adequate harvest. To be fair, gendered tropes are not the only special category of things that get this treatment. But it is reserved for a few special categories. It astounds me how often this idea of stolen fantasies comes up without being called.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  6. #826
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    That's not even close to the case. There is actual variety, stop being blinded by your own white knightery.
    If you weren't quite so ignorant, and had actually bothered to read the thread, and had read my contributions, you wouldn't be accusing me of white knightery. But, you are ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  7. #827
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    <snip>
    The reason you see stubbornness in relation to this trope is two fold.

    1) It has nothing to do with actual gameplay. QTE's, monster closets, and the like are tangible things in a game. A gender based inferiority complex is not.

    2) The argument against the trope is largely fallacious and fueled by confirmation bias. The average person sees "women vs tropes in games" and thinks "what?".

    Which brings up another point, the title of the video series itself is confrontational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    this is a business is Turkeys arguing for christmas.

    No project of passion has ever been bettered by the thought 'but would a male character sell better'. no great work of art was ever designed by marketing to show their shareholders.
    But it is a business. What you say is all well and good in fantasy land, but it doesn't actually apply to the real world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    If you weren't quite so ignorant, and had actually bothered to read the thread, and had read my contributions, you wouldn't be accusing me of white knightery. But, you are ignorant.
    The post I quoted is flat out wrong, whatever else you've said in the thread doesn't matter in relation to that post and my reply.
    Last edited by Hypernetic; 21-03-2013 at 06:19 PM.

  8. #828
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    this is a business is Turkeys arguing for christmas.

    No project of passion has ever been bettered by the thought 'but would a male character sell better'. no great work of art was ever designed by marketing to show their shareholders.
    I don't think that's the biggest flaw with the business argument, though. Personally I'm much more concerned with the social position of creative industries: they make the tropes, and reinforce the tropes based on their perceptions of demand. Those tropes are tainted by the social pedjudices of both the creators and the audience. The audience, in turn, can only consume what is peddled. The harder it is peddled, the more people buy it and/or know about it and the more a part of industry cannon it becomes. The cycle continues.

    The best business decision is not as simple as making what people most want--to an extent, they want whatever you're selling as long as it's within a fairly broad range of accepted content. The idea that this or that highly specific game element sells more than this or that other highly specific game element is usually a self-fulfilling idea. Tacked on multi-player comes to mind.

    Furthermore, a lot of the stuff that makes up these tropes doesn't come down to a business decision. A lot of this stuff happens in realms where the artists and designers have control. Places where the almighty cash flow isn't making decisions because we're in territory that's either too specific or too cash-agnostic. Lots of things sell. Lots of things that don't have gendered and/or problematic tropes slathered all over them. We can't boil this down to business decisions and wash our hands of it.

    And then there's all the stuff other people already covered--about it not being OK just because it's a good business decision. But before we get there, we get hung up on the fact that this stuff isn't better business.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post


    But it is a business. What you say is all well and good in fantasy land, but it doesn't actually apply to the real world.

    Then why are you so concerned I'm gonna sneak into your world and take all your games away that you need to skulk around this thread like a bad smell and play the corporate apologist? Away and rim EA some more, if you like the taste so much.

  10. #830
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    The post I quoted is flat out wrong, whatever else you've said in the thread doesn't matter in relation to that post and my reply.
    You really do have a problem with context, don't you? See... my post was in a context, referring to a certain type of game. But... You are ignorant, wilfully so. It's depressing. If you aren't going to bother your precious little self to get on the same (or a similar) page to the rest of us, you should probably just stop showing off your ignorance, you ignorant thing you.

    tl:dr (because I'm guessing you have difficulty with large paragraphs).

    Educate yourself, you ignorant thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  11. #831
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    The reason you see stubbornness in relation to this trope is two fold.

    1) It has nothing to do with actual gameplay. QTE's, monster closets, and the like are tangible things in a game. A gender based inferiority complex is not.

    2) The argument against the trope is largely fallacious and fueled by confirmation bias. The average person sees "women vs tropes in games" and thinks "what?".

    Which brings up another point, the title of the video series itself is confrontational.
    I'm not a big fan of the video series, so far. This isn't a format I really like and I don't really enjoy many of the points. Most of the time I either disagree or have already made the point to myself. It's the same problem I encounter with Extra Credits--I feel either patronized or bored. Either I'm not the target audience or the videos (both these and Extra Credits, while I'm at it) probably aren't very good.

    As for your points:

    1) Just as you can't take games out of gaming culture and gaming culture out of society at large, you can't take the mechanics out of everything else. People don't just play games for the bare mechanics. Fantasy Flight sells lots of really good board games, but they really steal the market with their incredible production values. You're buying really pretty stuff with lots of little bits and bobs and shiny things to play around with. We can most certainly analyze the game separately for it's content and it's mechanics. But most players will experience both together, and we should probably incorporate the paired context with our analysis. Let's not forget how many gamers play for the experience, for the story, for the graphics. Lot's of Skyrim players are there for the adventure rather than the button pressing. Lot's of people who loved Okami were there for the shiny bits. Lots of people who loved Cysis game for the shiny bits. Lots of people who played Planescape: Torment were there for the story. And so on, and so on.

    Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with "gender based inferiority complex." If that means what I think it might mean, I hope you realize that gender based inferiority complexes are established by the same society and the same attitudes that ultimately produce all of these video games, whether or not they all show direct symptoms. Some of them most certainly do show the symptoms and while we can argue over extent until the cows come home (an important and interesting argument, in my opinion--hence my being here), I really hope you agree that sexism is alive and well in society at large and that it extends into our media substantially whether or not gaming sub-culture is particularly worse about it.

    2) The average person strikes a poor figure of authority for backing up your argument here. The irony of your mentioning confirmation biases only to refer back to the average person is striking. The average person is surrounded by the most typical socialization and the most frequently confirmed biases.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  12. #832
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Away and rim EA some more, if you like the taste so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post

    Educate yourself, you ignorant thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rossignol
    1. Be excellent to each other.

    2. That means not insulting each other.

    3. No, really, it's possible to disagree without insults. Just don't do it.

    4. Please use English. I know, but our Foreign is pretty shockingly bad.

    5. Please report spam or innappropriate behaviour using the tools provided.


    Those things that you two are not remembering.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  13. #833
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Away and rim EA some more, if you like the taste so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Educate yourself, you ignorant thing.
    Please stop, I don't want this thread to be closed because of rule-breaking. Keep it less personal. It doesn't happen too often around here, and I like things that way.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  14. #834
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    Honestly, flat out stating "I'm not going to read what went previously" and then proceeding to simply rehash arguments that already have been debated in the thread more than once really doesn't count as "being excellent" in my book as well.

  15. #835
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Those things that you two are not remembering.[/COLOR]
    Nah... Hypernetic is being wilfully ignorant*. That's a fact. They refuse to read back through the thread, they admit that. They refuse to acknowledge that there is more to a person's position than the single post they pick up on. Wilfully ignorant of certain arguments and people's positions. Calling them ignorant is just stating a fact... insulting, perhaps... but Hypernetic can easily fix their ignorance, they just refuse to.


    *That's a sympathetic reading of their posts. More likely is they've come in to troll and try and bait people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  16. #836
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    It's easy not to engage a person who doesn't want to engage the thread by reading back over it. To be fair the thread has gone through so many tangents that it's understandable someone new to the thread might just skim through it or read the last few pages. Or just state their opinion.

    Big difference between that and straight out calling people names or asking them to perform sexual acts on companies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Nah... Hypernetic is being wilfully ignorant*. That's a fact. They refuse to read back through the thread, they admit that. They refuse to acknowledge that there is more to a person's position than the single post they pick up on. Wilfully ignorant of certain arguments and people's positions. Calling them ignorant is just stating a fact... insulting, perhaps... but Hypernetic can easily fix their ignorance, they just refuse to.


    *That's a sympathetic reading of their posts. More likely is they've come in to troll and try and bait people.

    And you can willfully ignore him and willfully not call him names that are against the rules.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  17. #837
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I'm not a big fan of the video series, so far. This isn't a format I really like and I don't really enjoy many of the points. Most of the time I either disagree or have already made the point to myself. It's the same problem I encounter with Extra Credits--I feel either patronized or bored. Either I'm not the target audience or the videos (both these and Extra Credits, while I'm at it) probably aren't very good.

    As for your points:

    1) Just as you can't take games out of gaming culture and gaming culture out of society at large, you can't take the mechanics out of everything else. People don't just play games for the bare mechanics. Fantasy Flight sells lots of really good board games, but they really steal the market with their incredible production values. You're buying really pretty stuff with lots of little bits and bobs and shiny things to play around with. We can most certainly analyze the game separately for it's content and it's mechanics. But most players will experience both together, and we should probably incorporate the paired context with our analysis. Let's not forget how many gamers play for the experience, for the story, for the graphics. Lot's of Skyrim players are there for the adventure rather than the button pressing. Lot's of people who loved Okami were there for the shiny bits. Lots of people who loved Cysis game for the shiny bits. Lots of people who played Planescape: Torment were there for the story. And so on, and so on.

    Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with "gender based inferiority complex." If that means what I think it might mean, I hope you realize that gender based inferiority complexes are established by the same society and the same attitudes that ultimately produce all of these video games, whether or not they all show direct symptoms. Some of them most certainly do show the symptoms and while we can argue over extent until the cows come home (an important and interesting argument, in my opinion--hence my being here), I really hope you agree that sexism is alive and well in society at large and that it extends into our media substantially whether or not gaming sub-culture is particularly worse about it.

    2) The average person strikes a poor figure of authority for backing up your argument here. The irony of your mentioning confirmation biases only to refer back to the average person is striking. The average person is surrounded by the most typical socialization and the most frequently confirmed biases.

    1) That's the point though, trying to change gaming doesn't mean anything when the problem isn't with gaming.

    2) Glad you (sort of?) got the joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Then why are you so concerned I'm gonna sneak into your world and take all your games away that you need to skulk around this thread like a bad smell and play the corporate apologist? Away and rim EA some more, if you like the taste so much.
    Heh. I'm not concerned that you are going to take my games away. I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    You really do have a problem with context, don't you? See... my post was in a context, referring to a certain type of game. But... You are ignorant, wilfully so. It's depressing. If you aren't going to bother your precious little self to get on the same (or a similar) page to the rest of us, you should probably just stop showing off your ignorance, you ignorant thing you.

    tl:dr (because I'm guessing you have difficulty with large paragraphs).

    Educate yourself, you ignorant thing.
    You have an odd way of admitting you are wrong, but I'll accept it.

  18. #838
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    And you can willfully ignore him and willfully not call him names that are against the rules.
    Just ignore them, yes, and let them shit the thread up. You could just ignore us aswell you know. I don't think calling them ignorant is against the rules... they've admitted that they're not willing to educate themselves. They are ignorant of the arguments and discussions that have gone before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  19. #839
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Just ignore them, yes, and let them shit the thread up. You could just ignore us aswell you know. I don't think calling them ignorant is against the rules... they've admitted that they're not willing to educate themselves. They are ignorant of the arguments and discussions that have gone before.
    I could, but like gwathdring I don't want to see threads getting closed because people can't play nice. When a thread gets closed because three people can't play nice it ruins it for everyone else in the thread.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  20. #840
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Just ignore them, yes, and let them shit the thread up. You could just ignore us aswell you know. I don't think calling them ignorant is against the rules... they've admitted that they're not willing to educate themselves. They are ignorant of the arguments and discussions that have gone before.
    Reading 40 pages of circle jerking and white knighting isn't education. Gwath is able to engage in intelligent discourse, however you just seem to be unjustifiably upset.

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