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  1. #1081
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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  2. #1082
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus bonkers's Avatar
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    We warned: has some mild story spoilers for some games. But nothing that major /imho
    (Firefall: bug shot) // (PS2: bobby is going home)
    -remove spaces-

  3. #1083
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by internetonsetadd View Post
    Straight-forward as the first.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  4. #1084
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Straight-forward as the first.
    Pretty much.

  5. #1085
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    I'll watch it shortly and edit this to add comments, but I strongly appreciate the spoiler list provided. It was one of my (petty?) irks about the first that some good stuff was spoiled for people, even if the arguments were well made. Whilst some will inevitably be included, simply providing the warning is good enough for me.

    Time stamp:
    2.51 - ...blimey, that was a long list.
    4.45 - That Pandora's Tower looks awful. In so many ways. That's the only clip I've seen of it too.
    7.20 - Haha. Guess I need to see Wreck-It-Ralph!
    8.04 - *Sniggers* I love how monotone the line has become. "Your wife is brutally murdered and you have to rescue your daughter."
    12.10 - I love that she's barely containing her laughter with the plot reveal of Bionic Commando and... 12.26 - Nope, there we go. Haha.
    18.55 - Boom, and that's the key thing. Repeated use is the problem, not just one here or there.
    20.38 - Agreed.

    Ok, done...okay, just re-watched the Bionic Commando part.

    Yeah, so full agreement with this one. Nothing at all I could think of.
    Last edited by The JG Man; 28-05-2013 at 10:44 PM.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  6. #1086
    Lesser Hivemind Node Krathor's Avatar
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    Aaaaand removed?
    Guild Wars 2:

    Main character name is Seigous Bearheart. I also play on Duke Witherheart. And Lindenheart.

    My GW2 blog that you can follow on Twitter.

  7. #1087
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Huh, so it is. You know, I bet it's to do with copyrighted footage.

    Or, after thinking about it, I bet it was reported for whatever reason.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  8. #1088
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    And will have to go through the week long process of DMCA take downs?

    Although it said youtube TOS, where I think copyrights normally list who claimed it.

  9. #1089
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Well, the first one is still there, so it probably isn't simply because of copyright.

  10. #1090
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    It's now back up.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  11. #1091
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    It's now back up.
    You really ought to have started a new thread and titled it "Your Wife Is Brutally Murdered And You Have To Rescue Your Daughter"
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  12. #1092
    Network Hub Skeletor68's Avatar
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    I enjoyed it. I'm hoping that after the next video about listing dudes in distress etc. we get a video to round off that topic and maybe get in a little deeper after establishing the various narrative techniques and cliches.

  13. #1093
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You really ought to have started a new thread and titled it "Your Wife Is Brutally Murdered And You Have To Rescue Your Daughter"
    Darn, I missed an opportunity there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeletor68 View Post
    I enjoyed it. I'm hoping that after the next video about listing dudes in distress etc. we get a video to round off that topic and maybe get in a little deeper after establishing the various narrative techniques and cliches.
    I think she mentioned in the first part that because this is so prevalent, it sort of acts as a base for all the other content in the series. I don't have the inclination to go back and check, but even if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be hugely surprised. With that in mind, I imagine she'll refer back to this trope throughout the series.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  14. #1094
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    Interestingly I've only played one game that is mentioned in that video, as far as I can tell.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  15. #1095
    I think she should back up a few of the points she makes more, like saying killing your possessed girlfriend in a game because she asks you to is equivalent to condoning violence against women in the real world or saying "Women are asking for it!" is a bit of a leap. I also think she over-uses the trope buzzwords. It really is like listening to someone read TV Tropes.

    I found the last 5 minutes by the strongest analysis she does in the video. That part pretty much made it worth watching. Although I wish she had trimmed down the first 20 minutes a lot.

  16. #1096
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iridescence View Post
    I think she should back up a few of the points she makes more, like saying killing your possessed girlfriend in a game because she asks you to is equivalent to condoning violence against women in the real world or saying "Women are asking for it!" is a bit of a leap.
    Possibly because, outside of the Joker, I can't think of very many male figures who ask you to enact violence upon them and then thank you afterwards.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  17. #1097
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Possibly because, outside of the Joker, I can't think of very many male figures who ask you to enact violence upon them and then thank you afterwards.
    Yes, I agree it's mainly a trope used on females. But that doesn't necessarily prove a link to violence in the real world. I'm not disagreeing that such a link might exist. It's just something that I would like to see her spend more time discussing since it really is more controversial and interesting than the fairly well-worn and uncontroversial damsel in distress stereotype she spends so much time on.

    Hopefully she will get to it in future videos.
    Last edited by iridescence; 29-05-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  18. #1098
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Oh no here we go.

    My thoughts (which no doubt people will bitch at me for again):
    1 - A lot of her list does demonstrate that the trope still exists, but I think some of those lack context. Max Payne 3 for example - it makes sense and doesn't come off as overly contrived. I can totally get that a bunch of... well, everyone apparently, kidnap a female party girl for an extortion attempt. EDIT: Well on reflection she does acknowledge context later, but then tries to divorce it from the story so...?

    2 - At least she acknowledged that some of these characters fight back, but then she goes "Inevitably they prove futile." Yes, it's a plot device. It's overplayed, you've well and truly proven that point, but she still hasn't really established how this is a significant problem outside of being a lazy trope.

    3 - Her point about reinforcing that women are desirable because of their powerlessness... I'm in two minds. On the one hand, yeah I guess I can sort of agree. But in some ways it's a long bow to draw. In some games the love interest is established between the characters prior to the damsel event, or the event strengthens the bond. That doesn't necessarily mean that the feelings of affection were strengthened purely because of the disempowerment, instead of a desire to help someone in need. That seems like a bit of a leap in logic, but the way a lot of them are framed still fits Anita's description, so I guess I'm on the fence.

    4 - "Woman in the refrigerator": Again, it's a trope. I get it. But again, how is this really contributing to gender imbalance besides just being an overused plot device? Yes, the reverse doesn't appear in games. That may be because most games are marketed towards men. That doesn't make it right, but that's the truth. There's no real demonstration how this plot device is a problem besides being overused. I mean I could make the same point out of "Suddenly... DEMONS" or something like that. She does make one excellent point - the attempt at including violence purely to justify a "mature" tag is bullshit. Then she says that they cross the line into misogyny. Really? How?

    5 - Haha, Bionic Commando.

    6 - Euthanised Damsel: Uh, yeah, it's a poor attempt at provoking an emotional response. Yes, overused. Again, not certain how she can demonstrate that it's harmful or really misogynist. Something being a trope does not make it misogynist. Saying that she's "asking for it" is ripping it entirely out of context. Then the Domestic violence stuff: What?! What?! Yes, games don't exist in a vacuum. But that doesn't suddenly mean the context of the game is entirely irrelevant. Then she lists a load of statistics about violence against women as if this is somehow a linked concept. I actually didn't have much criticism for the video right up until this part, when logic went straight out the window.

    7 - The last 5 minutes are pretty much the best words I've ever heard her say. I have no criticisms at all. I agree. Only point I would make is that I don't necessarily believe that any of this justifies why these tropes are necessarily bad. I agree that it's an overused plot device which does have some cultural impact, but I don't know if that really makes a strong enough case that the tropes are bad. Overused? Yes. Limiting? Yes. Shortsighted? Yes. Enough to claim misogyny? Don't know. She does nail it with Max Payne and failed hero stuff. Oh, and Dear Esther was not that creative. And it's not a game.


    Conclusion: Much better than her first, which was basically a list of tropes, but I still have a few issues. Firstly, it's still primarily a list of tropes which we already know are overplayed. They've overplayed in games, movies, pretty much anything that has a story. I don't think anyone disputes that. This time Anita tried to do a bit of analysis, and in some cases I agree. But there are some major leaps of logic here, particularly the one about the "euthanised damsel" reinforcing or justifying domestic violence. If we accept that games don't encourage violence behaviour, then by extension I have to accept that games don't encourage domestic violence. Her attempts to divorce context from the story just because games have a cultural impact is also ridiculous and a weak attempt to strengthen her argument. I don't have too many issues with this video (save the domestic violence stuff) except that it doesn't really make a case except that the trope is overused. She still hasn't actually demonstrated the harm. Where she has attempted to do so (which is better than last time) there are a few tenuous connections and one ridiculous leap in logic. Disappointing, but not as bad as last time.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  19. #1099
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iridescence View Post
    Yes, I agree it's mainly a trope used on females. But that doesn't necessarily prove a link to violence in the real world. I'm not disagreeing that such a link might exist. It's just something that I would like to see her spend more time discussing since it really is more controversial and interesting than the fairly well-worn and uncontroversial damsel in distress stereotype she spends so much time on.

    Hopefully she will get to it in future videos.
    Sure. But the link between violence and media is a diffuse and often indirect means, where the most direct argument posits that it's the constant reinforcement that allows an initial idea - gotten from where-ever - to germinate. There is something to be said, after all, that the Joker does it because he's crazy (or crazy like a fox), whereas these damsels ask you because... they love you?

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    3 - Her point about reinforcing that women are desirable because of their powerlessness... I'm in two minds. On the one hand, yeah I guess I can sort of agree. But in some ways it's a long bow to draw. In some games the love interest is established between the characters prior to the damsel event, or the event strengthens the bond. That doesn't necessarily mean that the feelings of affection were strengthened purely because of the disempowerment, instead of a desire to help someone in need. That seems like a bit of a leap in logic, but the way a lot of them are framed still fits Anita's description, so I guess I'm on the fence.
    There's a trope for that, too: Faux Action Girl. All attitude and spunk and inferred ability... until she needs to be saved. First part says "you're awesome," but the second part is why the protagonist cares.
    Last edited by Nalano; 29-05-2013 at 01:38 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  20. #1100
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    But Samus Aran! Lara Croft!

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