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  1. #1361
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    My bad. Sometimes I fail to use ignorant instead of stupid.
    Not the point but the two of you seem happy to trade like blows so I guess the point doesn't matter. Whatever works.

    I was more getting at the straightforwardness of your position in any case. I don't think blanket censure of this sort of thing is helpful.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 12-06-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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  2. #1362
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Not the point but the two of you seem happy to trade like blows so I guess the point doesn't matter. Whatever works.
    The vast majority of the male population has never thought about these things once in their entire life. So I am free to assume ignorance until demonstrated otherwise.

  3. #1363
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    The vast majority of the male population has never thought about these things once in their entire life. So I am free to assume ignorance until demonstrated otherwise.
    This has been discussed elsewhere in the thread, but I don't think that sort of statement holds much rhetorical weight. Figuring out what the vast majority of the male population thinks isn't something you can feasibly do.

    Not without a lot of controls and a hefty research budget.

    Edit: Also I might have accidently stealth edited this under you by being to slow. I added this to the other post:

    "I was more getting at the straightforwardness of your position in any case. I don't think blanket censure of this sort of thing is helpful."
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    The vast majority of the male population has never thought about these things once in their entire life. So I am free to assume ignorance until demonstrated otherwise.
    Please tell me that was ironic. Please tell me you just declared you judge people's knowledge based solely on their gender in jest and you understand the awful parallels you're making there...

    I'd feel awful sheepish if I fell into the trap of trying to reason with someone who didn't even get that.

  5. #1365
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    This sort of thing being things you deem "rapey."
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  6. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droopy The Dog View Post
    Please tell me that was ironic. Please tell me you just declared you judge people's knowledge based solely on their gender in jest and you understand the awful parallels you're making there...

    I'd feel awful sheepish if I fell into the trap of trying to reason with someone who didn't even get that.
    I didn't mean to imply that at all. A reasonably large portion of the female population hasn't thought about it at all either. Luckily for them they don't spend very much of their lives on gaming forums arguing about things they don't understand. So their knowledge is irrelevant.

    However I would be happy to defend as if I had done what you said. Specifically, that a problem mostly unique to women isn't likely to be well understood by the average man. The only reason they would give it any thought given the strong social disincentives to doing so was if they were the experiencer of an extremely strong emotional or intellectual counterweight.

    However as I said its more about my lack of confidence in humanity in general. And its not that you can't do better. You just don't want to be bothered. And not just about this. But not being ignorant in general.

  7. #1367
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    You don't get why it might be a problem to make a rape joke?
    No, I really don't. People need to stop being offended by everything, it's a joke.

  8. #1368
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, I really don't. People need to stop being offended by everything, it's a joke.
    Being a joke doesn't automatically give it a pass. There's more to it then whether or not it's intended to make people laugh.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, I really don't. People need to stop being offended by everything, it's a joke.
    I'm pretty sure that constantly hearing rape jokes is not amusing to survivors. You see, rape is not just a joke. Its an act of violence perpetrated against a real live human being. And it has real and enduring consequences. I don't particularly consider any kind of violence amusing. But some are more horrific than others.

    And if violent jokes are so funny why don't we hear lots of jokes about armed robberies? Why is rape the most commonly joked about crime? Context is important.

  10. #1370
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, I really don't. People need to stop being offended by everything, it's a joke.
    I like the way you think.

    If that had of been two guys on stage, this wouldn't even be an issue that one would've said that to the other. Since it's a woman involved, it suddenly becomes a rape joke and we get have a go internet journalists taking it out of context and showing people half a video to get their agenda across.
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  11. #1371
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Being a joke doesn't automatically give it a pass. There's more to it then whether or not it's intended to make people laugh.
    So you would classify this specific example as malicious or hate speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I'm pretty sure that constantly hearing rape jokes is not amusing to survivors. You see, rape is not just a joke. Its an act of violence perpetrated against a real live human being. And it has real and enduring consequences. I don't particularly consider any kind of violence amusing. But some are more horrific than others.

    And if violent jokes are so funny why don't we hear lots of jokes about armed robberies? Why is rape the most commonly joked about crime? Context is important.
    Yeah and? People are going to be offended no matter what you do. As for the rest of that post, do you have any evidence to back that up? Most joked about crime? Come on now.

    The whole "rape is hurtful" thing is a giant strawman. Nobody is saying real rape isn't bad, it was just a joke that was barely even about rape, it just had a rapey subtext. Get the fuck over it man.

  12. #1372
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    Rape jokes can be funny.



    People have been making jokes about lots of horrible things: murder, war, holocaust. terrorism, etc. Why is the subject of rape different from those? Honestly asking here, not looking for trouble.

  13. #1373
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    So you would classify this specific example as malicious or hate speech?

    No. I wouldn't. Not this specific example. I also don't buy into the "a survivor might be offended" thing.

    But as I've said elsewhere, your stance is inherently the more delicate one we should approach most cautiously. Because it's really easy to not get why something shouldn't be a joke. It's usually not really about a given instances or a given joke. Media tends to cling to that becasue it's solid and you can hand it to people and say "look at this thing that was done." But it's not the problem. The culture around it is the problem.

    Look, that presentation isn't something I found to be super heinous, but it's not Louis Ck's 9/11 joke either. This isn't comedy designed to shock and awe and play with taboos. This is a canned presentation about the Xbox One given to a crowd that represents a community that often does use gender dynamics as a weapon.

    I don't think we have to go all out on this one, but it's kind of hard to draw the line like that. As I mentioned with the Mario example someone brought up. It's not so much that Mario is the problem. It's that ... well it's all the problem. And while to some extent we're always going to have something wrong with our society that causes people undue suffering and changing the gender of video game protagonists isn't going to change that. But it's not hard to do and as long as we're adding more female protagonists ... why not [insert almost any franchise here]?

    We can argue all day whether or not this is an example of explicitly bad behavior on the part of Microsoft. But E3 isn't really doing much work in the explicitly good behavior department. And you would think a big PR event would be the perfect place to put on a good show, invite a broad audience, and generally play up the openness and promise of the medium. I honestly don't care if people over-react to this; I'm less of an idealist than I used to be and while I'd prefer people pushing for the right kinds of change for the right reasons, I'm exasperated enough to take a shove in the right general direction for mediocre reasons.

    And I'm still not convinced this is as mediocre a reason as you say it is.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 12-06-2013 at 12:26 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  14. #1374
    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that at all.
    Mmmhmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    The vast majority of the male population has never thought about these things once in their entire life. So I am free to assume ignorance until demonstrated otherwise.
    Your whole "everyone's an idiot because they don't get this!!!" argument is still predicated on your assumption that the inference you took from the comment is universal. The fact that there are people who didn't take that inference, whom you're arguing with, is proof that it ISN'T universal. It isn't that people don't "get" it. They just don't agree. All you're proving is that if YOU made the same "joke" as the guy in question, YOU would be talking about rape.

  15. #1375
    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that at all. A reasonably large portion of the female population hasn't thought about it at all either. Luckily for them they don't spend very much of their lives on gaming forums arguing about things they don't understand. So their knowledge is irrelevant.

    However I would be happy to defend as if I had done what you said. Specifically, that a problem mostly unique to women isn't likely to be well understood by the average man. The only reason they would give it any thought given the strong social disincentives to doing so was if they were the experiencer of an extremely strong emotional or intellectual counterweight.

    However as I said its more about my lack of confidence in humanity in general. And its not that you can't do better. You just don't want to be bothered. And not just about this. But not being ignorant in general.
    Fair enough, although if you treat male and female populations as equally ignorant I'd probably not bring gender into it in the first place, it serves no purpose and just leaves room for interpreting it as some kind of bias. On a personal level I still disagree with applying negative assumptions based on majorities to entire groups of people (in this case the entire human race?). It seems far more even handed to me to assume neither innocence nor guilt and simply embrace the fact that you don't know someone's position until they actually show you, regardless of statistical factors.

    So going with the, now purely hypothetical, argument that the average male somehow doesn't understand sexism but the average female does, I still wouldn't support assuming any male who enters a debate about sexism is ignorant. Much like I wouldn't support the assertion that females never enter the debate in an anonymous gaming context and are thus their ignorance is irrelevant. Both would be rash judgements in my opinion.

  16. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    Rape jokes can be funny.

    People have been making jokes about lots of horrible things: murder, war, holocaust. terrorism, etc. Why is the subject of rape different from those? Honestly asking here, not looking for trouble.
    There is a difference between jokes about rape and jokes with rape as the punchline. Personally I didn't think that video was funny.

    And jokes about the Holocaust are not different. Don't do that either.

  17. #1377
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    There is a difference between jokes about rape and jokes with rape as the punchline. Personally I didn't think that video was funny.

    And jokes about the Holocaust are not different. Don't do that either.
    Is everything else horrible ok to joke about tho?

  18. #1378
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    I think we should make a list of all the nasty things we can't joke about or when it's ok to joke about since apparently jokes about rape and with rape as a punchline are different.

    We should also cross check everything with everyone to make sure we haven't missed anything.

    Then we can all enjoy a world without comedy forever.
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  19. #1379
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I think we should make a list of all the nasty things we can't joke about or when it's ok to joke about since apparently jokes about rape and with rape as a punchline are different.

    We should also cross check everything with everyone to make sure we haven't missed anything.

    Then we can all enjoy a world without comedy forever.
    Come off it. There's a middle ground.

    I don't think humor is a get-out-of-jail free card, and I don't think we live in a perfect world where nobody ever means harm and sticks and stones can break your bones but names and never hurt. Words matter, jokes matter, and context matters. I don't like the idea of censuring every joke about rape, or tearing down everything that has "rapey" context as misogyny at work, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the power of words and the power of the silent oppression so many women face. The power of being cat-called and "jokingly" threatened and harassed all the time while also being in a position of social disempowerment.

    Of course, men can find themselves in these situations, too. Women aren't the only underclass and plenty of women have intersections of privaledge that carry them out of the underclass or just get lucky enough never to encounter this stuff in a way that causes them to do more than roll their eyes.

    But none of that invalidates the harm caused by supposedly harmless jokes or the danger of assuming that because it's just a joke to you, other people should have to put up with it, too.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  20. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droopy The Dog View Post
    For example I'd be pretty incredulous if someone tried to make the argument that "Haha! I just raped you so hard!"(c.f. yourself) wasn't a rape reference.
    People make this argument every day. I've personally heard it at least a few dozen times. I didn't actually count, sorry.

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