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  1. #1881
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I always got the impression that the Spice Girls were more seen as a cynical exploitation of "girl power" than any expression thereof. Basically co-opting (and misrepresenting) the Pacific Northwest's riot grrrl movement but in a mainstream-accessible way?
    I'm not super familiar with them, so that's entirely possible. They're definitely more about marketing and appeal than message. How "cynical" and/or aware of that the three Spice Grils were as individuals is another matter.

    I didn't know about Riot Grrrl at the time, and don't know much about the band now, either.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 02-08-2013 at 06:50 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  2. #1882
    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I always got the impression that the Spice Girls were more seen as a cynical exploitation of "girl power" than any expression thereof. Basically co-opting (and misrepresenting) the Pacific Northwest's riot grrrl movement but in a mainstream-accessible way?
    Yes. I and most other people I talked to at the time, of both genders hated the Spice Girls for this reason, Well, that and making awful awful music. Granted, we were all too old to be in their target demographic.

  3. #1883
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    There's a lot of criticism for the whole girl power thing along those lines. Turns out telling people they can be hot n' cool 'n sassy while still being empowered involves telling them both to be hot 'n cool n' sassy and how to be hot 'n cool n' sassy. Which is sometimes a problem.

    Thank goodness for Powerpuff Girls.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  4. #1884
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iridescence View Post
    Yes. I and most other people I talked to at the time, of both genders hated the Spice Girls for this reason, Well, that and making awful awful music. Granted, we were all too old to be in their target demographic.
    I would've been in the age group of their target demographic, just the wrong gender. Girls of my age though, loved them and the girl power idea. While I look back at it now and I'm convinced that the Spice Girls and "girl power" was really just being used as a marketing tool, to the girls who followed them, it was the real deal.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  5. #1885
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I would've been in the age group of their target demographic, just the wrong gender. Girls of my age though, loved them and the girl power idea. While I look back at it now and I'm convinced that the Spice Girls and "girl power" was really just being used as a marketing tool, to the girls who followed them, it was the real deal.
    My experience as well. I hated the music, but they weren't wooing me with anything but their tunes and I was always a little more resistant to pop music (for reasons both good and bad) than my friends and sisters. A lot of girls fell hard for the whole package. A lot of the hardcore feminist rock bands weren't exactly things you'd let your kids listen to, so the bright side of the girl power movement didn't stand much of a chance against the Spice Girls and Brats and the whole merchandising boom that followed the "Girls, be YOURSELVES and be PROUD* *just so long as you do so our way" thing.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  6. #1886
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I would've been in the age group of their target demographic, just the wrong gender. Girls of my age though, loved them and the girl power idea. While I look back at it now and I'm convinced that the Spice Girls and "girl power" was really just being used as a marketing tool, to the girls who followed them, it was the real deal.
    I definitely didn't have two of their albums on cassette. Not me, no siree.

    *Walks away nonchalantly whistling Stop and trying to avoid doing the actions*

    All Saints were better though. Oh and I'm probably more embarrassed by having Hybrid Theory in my music collection than 90s girl bands!

  7. #1887
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    All Saints were better though.
    Nah, B*Witched all the way.
    "Moronic cynicism is a kind of naÔvetť. It's naÔvetť turned inside-out. NaÔvetť wearing a sneer." -Momus

  8. #1888
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    That's a good point, JG, but how much of that is chicken and how much is egg? How much of that plot use is laziness and how much of it is because, even if it doesn't appeal to our social values, it does appeal to our aesthetic values? People talk about culture as if it is A Thing, but it is actually Many Things.
    Oh, gosh...I don't really know where to begin there! I suppose my response would be that it doesn't really matter? Feelings change with trends, so obviously something acceptable before isn't now, or perhaps is more codified and becomes a central pillar to what our culture now rests on. I don't know if that necessarily matters though. As you rightly point out, there's a barrier in portrayed violence that prevents us from imitating it or thinking it's okay. That's probably due in part to a lot of it being physically impossible, or at least highly unlikely. With issues of sexism and misogyny, as they're mostly non-physical (I think physical ones are a lot more obvious and usually play off that fact - Duke Nukem, I guess) the barrier is similarly less visible. Obviously we're not all sheep, but if we're talking about pervasive issues, something's gotta give at some point.

    You're right though, culture is lots of things, made up of various people from various groups with plenty of overlap in any and all of these categories. The commonality is that they're all made up of people, so one person or idea can carry across the different groups.

    To get back onto a track that is perhaps a bit more relevant, I wanna go back to that example of Gunman Clive (disclaimer: I have not played it) where the developer said that it's an easy message to get across quickly. Woman in danger, immediately eliminates who it isn't, our brains are wired to go "Aha!" and away we go. So yeah, it definitely appeals to our aesthetic appreciation, but only because we're used to it. That said, again I don't think it really matters because you're still giving off the same meaning.

    The central problem here is games writing is, mostly, abysmal. This isn't new to most of us here discussing this. We just need a bit more creativity and a few more minutes of thinking. Maybe ask around? I'd be curious to know, say, how many indie devs ask around friends and family for ideas when it comes to writing. With a lot of the creative writing I do, I'm quite keen to share it with others and then I'll use their feedback along the way, if I so choose. I sometimes get the idea that indie game development is quite insulated.

    That obviously doesn't excuse AAA development, but Naughty Dog, DICE, and a few other developers certainly seem to spend more than 20 seconds on what characters will be involved.

    I feel like I've just written a lot, but not actually answered your question. Hmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    *Walks away nonchalantly whistling Stop and trying to avoid doing the actions*
    ...god damn you.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  9. #1889
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    Make love not war.

  10. #1890
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    Nah, B*Witched all the way.
    I'd like to apologize on behalf of my nation for that band.

    And also U2.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  11. #1891
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
    For the Emperor!, a Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai AAR

  12. #1892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    I definitely didn't have two of their albums on cassette. Not me, no siree.

    *Walks away nonchalantly whistling Stop and trying to avoid doing the actions*

    All Saints were better though. Oh and I'm probably more embarrassed by having Hybrid Theory in my music collection than 90s girl bands!
    I was gonna say you could listen to Veruca Salt, the Donnas, or the Muffs. But then I remembered the age of people who liked the spice girls. No parent would let that fly.

  13. #1893
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    Nah, B*Witched all the way.
    Irish women. It's like their accents give an imaginary axis to the Crazy-Hot scale. And that's coming from a Scotsman.

  14. #1894
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    I suppose my response would be that it doesn't really matter?
    Perhaps it doesn't, but it does highlight the point that Anita seems to be hell-bent on forcing this as being a really big issue which is oppressing women, so I'd suggest that establishing intent or why it's so pervasive is worth considering when determining if it really does contribute to oppression. I don't really have a better answer than the one you provided, though I will throw in a paraphrased quote from The Making of Doom 3, a book that followed the development of D3. One particular part discussing the Cherub and Lost Soul might be applicable here. Kenneth Scott suggested that attraction and sympathy are potent tools to drive player emotions - in the case of Doom 3 it was to illicit fear or revulsion, perhaps even guilt in the case of the Cherub. Well maybe not fear, but definitely an attempt at being creepy.

    In any event, TGK might have a point that it's something that players (who are most likely to be male) can instantly grasp the plot, but not necessarily internalise what was being portrayed as a cultural norm. Again, I refer you back to videogame violence as being part of our culture, but violence itself still considered abhorrent. Which I think is the ultimate problem with Antia's work - it seems to suggest that because it's a trope it must therefore be harmful, and that it must be self-evident because so many games use it. But I'm still not convinced. Being a trope does not automatically make it harmful, just as something being a part of a medium that makes up our culture does not automatically mean we all internalise it as an acceptable value. That suggests that humans are entirely determined by culture, almost without free will to think. Despite what the Youtube blogger yelling about "sheeple" would like to think, that simply isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    I sometimes get the idea that indie game development is quite insulated.
    Funnily enough, this was probably my favourite point from Antia's video - the indie sector isn't much better. For all the ranting and raving about innovation and how it's going to save us from the brown-grey world of AAA, they're predominately still playing up the same trope, or when I think about it sticking to other tropes. I don't think mentioning Fez should count, otherwise we'd have to count every other game that doesn't have a damsel in distress (which reinforces my belief that Doom is awesome and would be the pinnacle of gaming if it had a female character).
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
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  15. #1895
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Thank you for yet another entry for my signature.
    I have actually specifically disabled signatures because even glimpsing at the quotes on yours is just painfull to watch...

  16. #1896
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Because women don't play fucking videogames.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    You're really [upsettingly wrong and prone to dubious generalizations. -paraphrase]

    But hey, I didn't say that, because ladies are sweet, demure things. No, women are pushed away from games because they don't want to play with [bounders -paraphrase] like you.
    I love how Serenegoose is edited for calling Mohorovicic out, but Mo's words are a-okay in the mods' book. Y'all got your priorities straight, yessirree bob.
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  17. #1897
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    Woe to this site when mods start banning people for offending videogames.

    Welcome back!

  18. #1898
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Woe to this site when mods start banning people for offending videogames.

    Welcome back!
    b-but we needed mods! We can't have people just offending other people on the internet, the might kill themselves.

  19. #1899
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    No no my friend, civility is the cornerstone of an intelligent discussion, because as we all know only stupid people ever resort to ad hominem.

    [Edit]Also I have this lying around and need an excuse to post it. Since Nalano so kindly bumped the thread...

    Last edited by Mohorovicic; 12-08-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  20. #1900
    In Splelunky you can change the damsel into a dude in skimpy underwear wearing a bow tie... or a dog :)

    Surely this is the most progressive of games. Also the goal is to defeat a giant head statue thing, not save a princess.


    I think I agree with Soldent on this. Just because the damsel trope is used in so many games doesn't automatically mean it will cause sexism in the same way killings thousands of bad guys doesn't make you want to shoot people in real life. Just because I like to rescue Zelda doesn't mean I think women in general are weaker and useless. That said I would still welcome any deviation from tropes for interest sakes.

    Edit: Any game with characters like the one in the above post is bloody stupid and completely get why a women would not want to play it (neither do I really). These sorts of discussion can be good though as it raises consciences of the issue which might result in more games being made that don't just appeal to men in sex interest way, more women will then join making a bigger market and bigger range of types of games. (which is a good thing)
    Last edited by Lone Gunman; 12-08-2013 at 04:55 PM.

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