Confirmed: Permadeath In World Of Darkness

But perhaps not quite as you might imagine. According to the World Of Darkness presentation at the Eve Fanfest – some of which you can see here, via VG247 – the players will be able elect “the Prince Of The City” for the real world locations such as London and New York, which will be player leader characters who will be able to permanently kill other players. As we anticipated, the game will be a full-blown sandbox, like Eve, but this time it will feature melee combat between supernatural protagonists, and have blood as currency. Yum.


  1. Dr I am a Doctor says:

    Sounds balanced and will never end with massive drama

    • Jim Rossignol says:

      I’m sure total drama is what they are aiming for.

      • Icarus says:

        It’s the WoD community. If it’s massive drama they want, they won’t have to aim very carefully. I love the WoD and it’s a great community, but damn, I’ve seen some blow-ups in the past.

      • RedViv says:

        It’s CCP and a game which will draw in the WoD crowd. “Total drama” is an understatement.

        • Delusibeta says:

          If the drama in this game manages to make EVE look like a primary school nativity play, then mission successful.

  2. Post-Internet Syndrome says:

    “Blood as currency.” I hope this takes the form of control over areas with many convenient victims, or actual blood slaves in a cupboard – like in the pen ‘n paper game – rather than a blood counter in the corner of the screen.

    • Jim Rossignol says:

      Sounds like they are trying to remain faithful to the P&P, so I should think it will be about control and influence.

      • Post-Internet Syndrome says:

        That would be ideal.

        After thinking for a bit, I actually like the idea of the privilege of killing other players being restricted to certain influential individuals. This gives the community tools for handling griefers, and the individual tools for unlimited corruption, but since they can be unseated and then killed by their successor they can’t be too blatant about it.

      • FunkyBadger3 says:

        Also: leather trenchcoats and hair-dye. Musn’t forget them.

      • Sardukar says:

        Well, faithful to the LARP, more likely. Every PnP game I’ve played, run or even watched has copious elements of shooty and stabby bits. So much so the latest edition of the game rules was rewritten to reduce vampire’s physical prowess and encourage/enforce a more social gamestyle. This was followed by a very good expansion book allll about guns and knives and violence, though. Heh.

        So, yeah, PnP is more like, ah, Vampire Bloodlines than, say, True Blood. In my experience. LARP is different, though.

        Personally, I’m still hoping for an MMO Bloodlines. Because that’s likely!

      • Dances to Podcasts says:

        Step 1: hack important person’s account

  3. Jayson82 says:

    As long as the person in charge also when killed has permadeath, if they can permadeath anyone else but can not be permadeath themself then its unfair.

    • Anders Wrist says:

      If the prince/baron in question runs amok, and goes on an unjustified killing spree, it probably wouldn’t be that big of a problem electing someone else, to kill him afterwards.

      • ripclaw says:

        …with your shiny new level 1 characters

        • Anders Wrist says:

          If nothing else, why not? We know no details of the system, so who knows when you get to vote on something like that. And for that matter, who knows what kind of restrictions there are going to be on making decisions to perma-kill players, when you’re a prince.

          • BillyIII says:

            I hope, there will be no restrictions. Politics should be defined by players, not by developers.

    • Icarus says:

      I’d imagine that there are other ways to be permanently killed, but lore-wise the Prince has the authority to call down a Blood Hunt (aka ‘kill this vampire right fucking now and don’t come back until you do’) on other vampires in his or her city- I’d imagine that’s what CCP are referring to.

    • Sardukar says:

      Well, yeah, it will be unfair. Prince of the City vs not-Prince? Supposed to be unfair. It’s a World of Darkness – what about that seems fair to you? Let us hope that the topple-them-off-the-throne process isn’t easy, though, as that would destroy both the stability and the mystique of the position.

  4. pandora says:

    So what about release (or public beta or whatever) dates?

  5. Eclipse says:

    That image always reminds me of Vampire – The Masquerade: Redemption.
    Such a beautiful game, way underrated compared to Bloodlines.

  6. mazzratazz says:

    Is it just me or is development of this thing taking an alarmingly long time? Every year or so I seem to hear some tidbit of info or see a lonely piece of concept art with nothing that even approaches tangible gameplay or concrete mechanics, and this has been the case for… quite a long time. I mean, I know developing games takes a LONG time and developing MMOs takes an exponentially longer time, but you’d think they’d at least have something interesting to show by now.

    At this rate we’ll have a playable game by 2015.

    • TODD says:

      I’m just glad it’s still in development at all after the big cutbacks at CCP. I was surprised to see a fully playable DUST 514 at Fanfest, for example, and to see that it will likely be one of the most innovative multiplayer shooters ever made — well, that just blew me away.

    • kyrieee says:

      2015 at the soonest

    • Iskariot says:

      In the meantime they could have given us a nice vampire action RPG 3 times over.
      So weird that no one is jumping on the vampire bandwagon these days. There is a huge crowd for it, if done well.

  7. mwoody says:

    I look forward to hunting these vampire kings with my cadre of armed-to-the-teeth mortal tactical teams.

  8. utharda says:

    I’ve been longing for a game at the precise intersection between bram stoker and visicalc! once again CCP provides!

    (I keed I keed, I loves me some eve.)

  9. Hoaxfish says:

    I thought this was dead?

    Didn’t they say at some point they were refocusing on Eve and Dust, while dropping this?

    • Post-Internet Syndrome says:

      They refocused, but did not drop it completely. It’s coming, but not soon.

    • pandora says:

      IIRC they reduced the number of people working on it, but still claimed a lot is developing WoD (“60” is bumping around in my head).

      However, eeing how EVE’s stations are, I wouldn’t be confident they have anything really done yet. Unless they are holding this back not to be accused of using eve as testing ground for WoD’s tech again.

      • TODD says:

        Pandora, comparing progress on EVE’s stations to the development of other CCP titles is completely unfair. Eve lost subscriptions for the first time ever when CCP spent half a year focusing on Walking in Stations, so they all but abandoned that area of development. It’s not that they aren’t meeting project goals (although that was true before), it’s that the Walking in Stations itself is no longer a goal.

        • Batolemaeus says:

          They spent over two years on microtransactions and stations, not half a year.

      • zenkuso says:

        I got a lot of questions answered at evefest about the game but due to having to sign a NDA… I can say it’s in full production and god damn are they very ambitious with breaking jack.

        • pandora says:

          So, who do they make sign an NDA and answer her questions? Will something be published soon? :P

  10. ran93r says:

    Quietly excited about this having played the P&P for many years.
    I agree with mazzratazz though, it’s been five and a bit years since this was first announced and we really know next to naff all about it although I do remember layoffs recently that would impact upon production.

    link to

  11. Drinking with Skeletons says:

    My only experience with WoD is Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines, which I love. I looked into the lore out of curiosity, and found it to be a deeply stupid rabbit hole of over-explanation and melodrama. If they manage to trim out the fat as Troika did, I’ll gladly hop into this. If they want to dive headfirst into their convoluted mythology, leaving no detail to the imagination, then I’ll have to pass.

    Obsidian needs to approach CCP and say, “We want to make a World of Darkness game. After our success with New Vegas, we are confident that we can produce a game that satisfies players looking for a well-written story, moderately deep RPG elements, and/or an engaging combat system that would generate interest in your upcoming MMO.”


    • FunkyBadger3 says:

      The orignal game (subtitled “A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror”) was excellent. The subsequent expansions and power escalation were pretty universally gash.

      Werewolf was a far more interesting system & setting. But, as Twilight shows, vampires are mass market…

      • sinister agent says:

        There aren’t any vampires in Twilight, silly.

      • The Aquacharger says:

        I’m upset that carens and werewolves are being left out. I’ve always preferred them to vamps in WoD.

        • noerartnoe says:

          Might be because – combat-wise – werewolves are batshit f****** crazy? I mean, even Vampires who are both *old* and low generation try not to mess with them… (at least not 1v1). A Garou from, say, the Get of Fenris in Crinos form is pretty badass…

          There’s also that whole “avoids the cities because they are bastions of the Weaver thing” – well, aside from the Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers (and the Black Spiral Dancers, but being enemies of all other Garou I’d say they don’t count :p )

          • dreadguacamole says:

            I’m guessing this game is in the “new” WoD – in which case, werewolves have been re-jigged to be a bit more balanced in comparison to the other supernaturals, and there are quite a few ways they can live in cities as well.

          • The Aquacharger says:

            More then GW and BG can live in cities. Just about all can except the RedTalons and the indian tribes.
            But, I still want to be a damn werewolf. Glasswalkers unite!

          • FunkyBadger3 says:

            All the games were individually good, they just got silly in crossovers – not so much the other races being used as antagonists, but mixed parties were – without fail – silly.

    • Icarus says:

      As far as interesting settings go I would love love love to see a Wraith: the Oblivion MMO, but sadly that’ll never happen :(

      • TheWhippetLord says:

        Nope, not a ghost of a chance. :(

      • FunkyBadger3 says:

        You could get a similar effect by subbing to Tabula Rasa…

        (I loved the *idea* of Wraith… but how could you play a game like that?)

        • TheWhippetLord says:

          In PnP at least (I did one campaign) it worked a lot like the WoD Mage game – mainly talk with very limited use of stats and dice. Maybe a computer incarnation would work better as an story driven adventure-type game (sometimes known as an RPG,) rather than a freeform stat-based skirmish game (sometimes known as an RPG.)

      • dreadguacamole says:

        Especially since they’ve since nixed the line. Shame, because it’s my favorite all-time RPG, especially after the 2nd ed. book came out.
        I would have loved a GTA-style Hunter game where you needed to stake out and observe supernaturals before trying to take them out (all the time avoiding being found yourself)

  12. ratbum says:

    This is by far the MMO I am most interested at the moment. I really hope it makes it onto Mac OS too.

  13. nootron says:

    Perhaps they are only introducing permadeath to keep out the Twihards.

  14. Duckee says:

    For us blissfully ignorant. Will the game mainly be about politics and power? Perhaps some sort of feudal system?

    I do like the idea of this game, but I fear that without any limitation on the “killing of players” or cost factors you will just end up with massive blobs of people in 1 faction or whatever, which creates a stalemate scenario.

    Anyone willing to illuminate me?

    • Psychopomp says:

      “For us blissfully ignorant. Will the game mainly be about politics and power? Perhaps some sort of feudal system? ”

      That’s pretty much how a good Vampire LARP works.

      “I do like the idea of this game, but I fear that without any limitation on the “killing of players” or cost factors you will just end up with massive blobs of people in 1 faction or whatever, which creates a stalemate scenario.”

      More or less, all vampires are in the same faction. They’re just backstabbing, conniving bastards who would sell their own mother for more power. Think of it like Drow society, it’s only being a lying, cheating, backstabbing asshole *if you get caught.*

      The Princes job is more or less to keep the order as much as possible. Vampires have a lot of enemies and keeping them from straight up killing each other over petty bullshit powerplays is counter-productive to their survival. Normally, getting caught means a demotion, but anything that endangers the race, clan, or whatever is met with death/an open call for your head.

      Bad princes don’t last long. Getting drunk on power is the quickest way to get killed as a Prince.

      • Icarus says:

        @Psychopomp: There’s also the Sabbat, who are less ‘medieval/feudal power system’ and more ‘bunch of psychopathic zealots who don’t even use Humanity as a moral path any more and who view the Camarilla as only good for dinner or possibly cannon fodder’.

  15. KingKio says:

    Do the vampires sparkle? if not then they aren’t real vampires!

  16. Demiath says:

    I thought the whole deal with the vampire thing was that you didn’t die?

    • marcusfell says:

      There’s still burning to death, decapitation and getting stabbed through your cold, unforgiving heart.

    • malkav11 says:

      Not at all. That’s never been what vampires were about. Rather, they don’t die of age and other natural causes. Like plenty of other fictional immortals, they can still be brought low by violence. (Though it’s significantly tougher with vampires in most approaches to the material, including World of Darkness’.) Or possibly starvation.

      • Post-Internet Syndrome says:

        In nWoD at least (I don’t know how it works in Masquerade) vampires do not die of starvation, they just fall into torpor.

  17. marcusfell says:

    No puns yet? Well, this game had better not suck.

    • Antsy says:

      I’m looking forward to getting my teeth into it.

      • Stupoider says:

        It’s gonna be a tough job to match EVE’s level of success. The stakes have never been higher for CCP.

        • Antsy says:

          Well they better think twice about trying to bleed us dry with nonsense like the monocles in EVE.

          I certainly won’t be coffin up for that sort of thing.

    • TheWhippetLord says:

      Fang you very much for the puns.

    • The white guar says:

      not another bloody pun thread, please!

    • TheWhippetLord says:

      BIte me! :P

  18. Lobotomist says:

    Its great to be optimistic. And all about this game sounds so good.

    But you got to know one thing.

    You will have to wait at least 6 more years for this game to be released. And this is in case it will be released at all , and CCP is not dissolved by than.

    The official development started 2008. Four years have passed and all CCP can show is a graphic demo showing a small street – just architecture , mind you. No NPCs , players, vehicles… its basically rendering engine demo.

    And this was all done before CCP fired half of the team working on WOD MMO.

    How fast you think the skeleton crew will finish rest of the game , if it took them 4 years to produce 30 seconds rendering demo , and one hand drawn animated trailer (last year)

    In one word. The real work on the game didnt start yet. What was done is concept work (if any work was done at all)
    And taking in account that MMOs take anywhere from 3-5 years to produce , and real small CCP team working on WOD

    I place the release in 2018

    But by then we will have virtual reality Ipad. So who will care about WOD ?!


    • BillyIII says:

      I think most of the work is in the game mechanics / server software / whatever. Not much to show off in that area.

      • Lobotomist says:

        That is a chunk of work, but far away from being largest part.

        I assure you WOD is very very far from release.

        • ascagnel says:

          As a developer:

          On most projects, one-half of the staff are coders. And the modelers/texture artists/level designers can’t show much of anything until the coders have everything working properly.

          • Lobotomist says:

            I am sorry, but this is simply not true.

            One of the first things done is to make some kind of gameplay demo.
            Even with most basic textures and 99% of things still not implemented.
            (The uses are many. From investor presentations to gameplay concept testing)

            If you are really game developer, you should know this.

            And if you need example look at Diablo 3 video they released at same day they announced start of development. The video allready looked like finished game.

            If company can only provide small rendering demo after 4 years of development. Than things are not good.

  19. HisMastersVoice says:

    It seems all thirteen modern clans will be available. That means Fiends will be playable, which is cool. Salubri not being playable is not so cool, but bearable as long as I get to fleshcraft someone.

    • BillyIII says:

      IIRC they said “originals”, not “all thirteen”. It might be difficult to implement fleshcrafting for example.

      • Sardukar says:

        Originals typically means Vamp 1st Ed player clans:


        Betcha that’s it.

  20. Schadenfreude says:

    I only really know WoD from the two Vampire games (I personally loved Redemption – goes a bit squirrely in the modern age though). Is this based on those same ‘Masquerade’ rules or is it (I’m assuming) the newer version that was published? And those in the know; is that a good thing?

    • Oof says:

      I don’t know which rules they’re using, but the new ones would certainly serve them better. nWoD is balanced. oWoD is a min-max wet dream.

      • Post-Internet Syndrome says:

        nWoD is “balanced” in that all the different kinds of supernaturals have roughly the same power levels and use the same basic rules systems for easy integration with each other (where the oWoD had a lot of unique rules for the different games that made crossovers very difficult), but from a competitive standpoint I’d say its not balanced at all. Dice statistics at higher power levels spin out of control and there are several abilities that are clearly overpowered (and let’s not even talk of Mage…). For PnP this is fine since it is not a game about competive combat but about stories and the ST is expected to moderade crazy shit to fit the needs of the current chronicle. The MMO will surely use the original rules as a starting point, but I fully expect – and hope – that they will craft their own system to best serve their needs.

    • Post-Internet Syndrome says:

      I’ve gotten the impression that this is based on the old Masquerade setting rather than the newer Requiem, mainly I’d guess because that is the one most people are familiar with. Mechanically, the nWoD cleans up a lot of the rules mess that is the oWoD, but that need not be a big problem here since this game will invent its own rules anyway. Masquerade also had a lot of metaplot that was all over the rulebooks that some gaming groups felt forced them into playing in ways they didn’t neccesarily want to, while Requiem is more modular plug ‘n play where the ST decides which ancient conspiracies are canon and which are not. For the PnP I’d say Requiem and nWoD is a great improvement, but using the old setting needn’t be a problem for the MMO as long as it tones down some of the more ridiculous plot elements.

      • Drinking with Skeletons says:

        I mentioned this further up the thread, but I think one of the best things Troika did with Bloodlines was a careful omission of certain elements. Mostly it meant not going into detail, which spared the player the stupidity of some of the lore and also preserved a sense of mystery (the Chinese vampires were a good example of this).

  21. Herbert_West says:

    Prince, shmince. I do not bow to a Cammy. I bow only to Seth.

  22. Sardukar says:

    This MMO is based on Masquerade, not Requiem. Developer clearly states this, no more waffling.

    Full video at link to

    Sabbat make sense when you realise they believe in the Jyhad, war of the ancient vampires against each other using the younger vampires, and consider the Camarilla the tool of their enemy.

  23. Kdansky says:

    Games need more perma-death. EVE PVP is thrilling and adrenaline-inducing, and you only lose a bit ingame gold when you lose (your ship and all your stuff). Perma-death? I sure hope there is more than one way (the prince declaring a blood-hunt) to kill a character permanently.