Slo-Mo & Booming Noises: The Elder Scrolls Online

Grumble grumble I’m not entirely sure this is worth a post grumble grumble. It’s a CGI-only, bizarrely slo-mo and semi-silent glimpse of the main factions in Bethesda’s confusingly non-Elder Scrollsy The Elder Scrolls Online. I’m interested in the game even if I’m currently bewildered by how little it sounds like its singleplayer parent, but this trailer is about as illuminating as a conversation with a Scientologist.

What you’re looking at there, in order, are the Ebonheart Pact, the Aldmeri Dominion and the Daggerfall Covenant, which between them boast all the familiar TES races, conveniently set against each other for the purposes of PvP’n’stuff. I’m going to call them The Thumpies, The Magicks and The Stealthalots, I think.

More – and more revelatory information – on TESO soon.


  1. psychoconductor says:

    Is that screenshot supposed to look remarkably like Kingdoms of Amalur?

    • Wreckdum says:

      I think it looks more like Rift than KoA.

      EDIT: Correction, apparently I’m seeing a different screenshot than the original post. lol I guess it was KoA and they changed it.

  2. marcusfell says:

    Every time someone mentions this I just get depressed.

    Edit: Loled at screenshot switch.

    • neonordnance says:

      This game is an abomination. There’s literally no chance it will be good. Very, very sad that Zenimax are wasting money on this.

      • Vorphalack says:

        Following the development of TESO is like watching a train taking a year to crash, in slow motion, into an orphanage. It’s going to be a monumental disaster but for some reason you can’t take your eyes off it.

        • gladius2metal says:

          just like the European Economy…

        • FakeAssName says:

          this slo-mo train wreck started back in 2005-ish.

          that’s why many of us old school fans of Daggerfal, Morrowind, and Arena abandoned ship back when Bethsoft first jummped the rails with it’s hyper consolization of Oblivion.

          there are no mistakes with TESO, everything “wrong” with it has been intentional actions and the culmination of years worth of direct action to shift the elder scrolls from it’s roots as a tactical/action RPG to this monstrosity that TESO is destined to become.

          • ChromeBallz says:

            I’m a huge fan of Daggerfall. It was my first foray into TES. I love Morrowind. Went out to get the collector’s edition with the little money i had saved up at that point.

            Going by this record i should absolutely hate Oblivion and Skyrim. While i don’t really ‘love’ Oblivion, i had a lot of fun with it. It fixed a lot of stuff that was wrong in the previous games (especially the woeful RNG combat of DF and MW).

            However, i LOVE Skyrim. It fixes everything that was wrong with the previous games and expands in other areas. Yes, it has it’s faults, but overall the feel is great. IMHO it’s better in every single way than Morrowind and Daggerfall, except the main storyline is a bit weak.

            The UI is very easy to use, it’s so much faster than anything any of the previous games could throw at you. The one complaint might be that the text is a bit large, a leftover from being crossplatform.

            Another common complaint about Skyrim is the ‘lack of major/minor skills’. This is a strength imho, as this allows people to skip right ahead to actually playing the game without spending 15 hours up front min/maxing their build. There is no ‘efficient levelling’, nor is there any cheese where you pick major skills you never use to get 100 blade/marksman at level 1. There’s no FUSS about levelling here and the best part is that Skyrim actually allows you to customize more than any previous game:
            In Morrowind, you could get every attribute to 100 and every skill to 100. The ONLY thing your major/minor skills determined is which skills give you hitpoints, essentially. There is no customization here, there is only min/maxing with no regard to actually roleplaying your chosen class.
            In Skyrim, you just play whatever you want, and THAT is your class. Skills get perks, which in turn need certain levels to be unlocked. You get a maximum of 80 perks, no more. As there are 200+, this means that even if you get a new skill to 100 after you max out, it will never be as good as the skills you chose when you ‘properly’ played it beforehand, meaning there is MORE customization in Skyrim than in Morrowind.

            Long diatribe aside, many people look back at previous games with thick rose colored glasses more than anything else, flat out refusing to look at newer games with anything but disgust and disdain, regardless of the improvements they actually made.

            This being said, i’m starting to carefully turn less pessimistic about TESO now. I stopped thinking like a fanboi with a raging hard-on for nostalgia and realized that no one has actually seen anything of the actual game yet. I’ll be holding off any judgement for now untill i’ve seen it in action and know more about it. It won’t be the same as the singleplayer games, but that’s the entire point of an MMO – Both games can happily coexist as they pander to different markets, different people, different tastes and different gaming styles.

          • pipman3000 says:

            i sure miss the deep tactical/action gameplay of holding down a button and swinging my mouse side to side until i get carpal tunnel. you have to be one huge grognard to think daggerfalls combat was good, or perhaps touched by sheogorath :)

          • FakeAssName says:

            it was the complexity that sold me on the first three games; I liked having a sandbox like character creation system with penalties; it made my characters feel more alive than other games.

            oh yeah, there was tons of shit wrong with the earlier TES games, and the only rose coloring I can remember is due to my vision turning red in rage after falling to my death after dropping through the floor in daggerfall, but why I loved the earlier games was more than anything due to the games being highly technical and allowing the player to create the character they wanted to play.

            in Morrowind, everyone I talked to who played the game had a distinct character and experiences with playing the game; whenever I hear people talk about skyrim it honestly sounds like they are all talking about the same character.

            I don’t hate the modern TES because of what it was, I hate the modern TES because I hate the type of games that it has been molded into becoming.

            *shrug* fuck this wow clone TESO crap, if I really feel the need to play a MMO version of the elder scrolls I’ll go pick up Mortal online or Darkfall. what they lack in TES lore, they more than make up for with (IMO) true TES mechanics.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            ChromeBallz, I can do nothing but echo your entire post. I have played every TES game except the very first one and, just like you, I loved Morrowind, really enjoyed a modded Oblivion and thought Skyrim just might be the best in the series. After several hunderd hours in the game I have yet to experience the supposed dumbing down. Yes, core, major and minor skills are gone, but the only thing they changed is that now I don’t have to grind my Restoration skill like an idiot just because I want to get a 5 modifier. Yes, attributes are gone, but they all pretty much affected either stamina, health or mana with the exception of luck, which I personally never bothered with, and the game might have 3 skills less, but the wonderful perk system added a lot of depth and customizability to the game.

            I still think Daggerfall had the best character progression system though :)

          • ffordesoon says:

            I’m a big fan of Skyrim as well. The TES character development system is the only RPG system I can think of that inarguably required a shit-ton of streamlining. I think Skyrim probably overcorrected a tad, much like Mass Effect 2, but the majority of the system was pure cruft that needed to be scraped off.

          • Phantoon says:

            Actually, the train wreck is akin to SWTOR, and I didn’t like Skyrim.

            About half of my almost 100 hours was spent doing something unrelated to the game, and the fifty hours I spent playing it was mostly alchemy when I realized that the integral parts of the game aren’t as imaginative as Morrowind.

            And I can’t have rose tinted glasses for Morrowind- I started playing it AFTER Skyrim! It’s a far superior game.

          • fish99 says:

            ” there are no mistakes with TESO, everything “wrong” with it has been intentional actions and the culmination of years worth of direct action to shift the elder scrolls from it’s roots as a tactical/action RPG to this monstrosity that TESO is destined to become. ”

            I don’t really buy that, because while you may not like (and neither do I) the dumbing down of the Bethesda RPGs, TESO isn’t a Bethesda RPG and therefore can’t be viewed as the culmination of that trend. It’s another studio (Zenimax Online), deliberately making a WOW clone with the ES IP, and meanwhile Bethesda GS will keep making their single player RPGs which will continue evolving from the point they were at with Skyrim. It’s not like Bethesda are going to incorporate loads of stuff from TESO when it’s so radically different from their vision of what an RPG should be, as shown in their own games.

      • neonordnance says:

        One year later, after several month’s delay, Elder Scrolls Online is finally released. Reviews praise the few innovative features but criticise the lack of connection to the source material and the generic nature of the mechanics. The game sells moderately well at launch, but sales soon drop as review scores come out, putting the game in the mid 70’s on metacritic. Being launched right after the announcment that WOW and SWOTOR are going F2P, the game’s subscription model seems archaic.

        The first wave of gamers seems hopeful, but criticize the technical problems still present in the game, as well as the lack of high-level content. Elder Scrolls fans, some lured in by the brand, quickly lose interest with the game, leaving angry forum posts in their wake complaining that the game is “nothing like Skyrim.” Although subscription numbers were fairly impressive out the gate, there is an unprecedented drop in subscriptions just two months after release, and numbers continue to plummet as the gaming community increasingly ignores ESO in favor of hyping Fallout 4.

        By the time Fallout 4 comes out, around Christmas 2013, the game has been largely forgotten, even ignored by MMO trade sites like Massively. Even a desperate attempt to woo more subscribers through a much-hyped “oblivion crisis,” in which Rift-style random attacks are introduced, fails to generate much buzz, and hardcore Elder Scrolls fans decry the lack of respect for the lore.

        As numbers continue to drop, in the beginning of 2014 Zenimax declares that ESO is going F2P. The small number of harcore players still maintaining the game after launch complain the addition of gaudy vanity items will ruin the game’s feel, and some leave. After the launch of F2P, the game gains additional subscribers, including many curious Skyrim fans, but few stay long enough to hit the level cap. The lack of revenue hamstrings the developer’s attempts to add content, and new fully-voiced quests are a rarity. The majority of new quests involves recycled content, exceedingly spartan dialogue, and re-used locations — essentially harder versions of existing dungeons.

        Just two years after release, citing lack of interest, a disappointed Zenimax Online closes the game down. In an interview, the studio head commented that “if only we had known how things were going to go in 2012, we could have avoided this mess!”

        • StarkeRealm says:

          You missed the part where most drops are “lock boxes” which require RMC Keys. Forcing players to either cough up a buck every time they kill an enemy, and driving away all the hardcore players who can’t afford to spend $20 a week on the game.

    • MistyMike says:

      How can Bethsoft be so stupid to outsource the game to some hacks who will just deliver a WoW clone. Why can’t they take the existing engine and assets and tweak it for multiplayer gameplay? I bet a first person MMORPG would be a sleeper hit.

      • fish99 says:

        I doubt Bethesda Game Studios even want to work on an MMO. I mean who would? They’re empty soulless grindy games with little-to-no narrative (I’m sure someone will say that describes TES games, but compared to the average MMO, it really doesn’t). And it’s not like they have any experience making one anyway.

  3. Hyetal says:

    I see this is being developed by ZeniMax Online Studios. I’m curious if Bethesda has any involvement at all.

    Edit: missed the Bethesda part in the teaser. Still curious about who is working on what.

    • FakeAssName says:

      Zeni Max and Bethesda are so closely intertwined they are virtually one and the same.

      if you want the functional relationship; Zeni Max is the publishing department of Bethesda.

      if you want the literal relationship; Zeni Max is the publisher that technically owns Bethesda, Zeni Max online, iD and a couple other developers.

      so to more clearly answer your question, everything that is happening in TES Online is approved and in all likelihood initially developed by Bethesda.

      • ChromeBallz says:

        Actually, ZeniMax is the publisher.

        Bethesda Softworks is a subsidiary of ZeniMax, developer and publisher. However, they do NOT make any of the Elder Scrolls games.

        ZeniMax Online is a developer, they are making TES:O.

        Bethesda Game Studios is a developer, they are making the singleplayer TES games.

        All in all, ZeniMax Online and Bethesda Game Studios are 2 different developers. Neither has much say over the other, BGS is unable to do much else than give “recommendations”.

        The relationships and names are a bit confusing, but the people making the singleplayer TES games are not involved at all with making the MMO. Two entirely different development studios.

  4. Grimhound says:

    >Another faction-based MMO.
    Nope. Didn’t like it WoW, don’t like it in any of the 500 MMOs that copied WoW, don’t like it in this. All the Herp VS Derp faction crap does in MMOs is cause servers to lean heavily one way or another. Why? Because the vast majority of people dislike the faction crap and nobody wants to be on the losing side.

    • Lucretious says:

      I dunno. I LOVE being on the losing side. Much more exciting and adventurous.

      That being said, when Morrowind came out and I was in middle school, I thought ESO would be a great idea. I dreamed about it. But that’s exactly the sort of gaming idea it is: something a middle-schooler dreams up. Which is to say, bad.

      • Claidheamh says:

        And it’s also what this isn’t. It’s online, sure, but it’s not Elder Scrolls.

    • TariqOne says:

      I’m not taking a position either way on the game itself, but I do note this is three factions, not two.

      This is something WAR should have done and a good move generally for open pvp games, as it allows the two weaker factions to team up and tends to smooth out the balancing issues you’re talking about.

    • Kestilla says:

      There’s always a losing side because there’s always a side people want to play more than the other(s). In WoW, the Horde economy was frequently in the dumps because the lack of players meant fewer people acquiring items and selling them on the market. Very hard to get what you needed, until Blood Elves came in. Then people stopped by in larger numbers.

      This is always a bad idea. Villains in DC Universe Online, for instance. No one plays villains – good luck getting a group.

  5. Durkonkell says:

    It’s the return of Lord AwkwardPose McBlurryFace!

  6. Duckee says:

    To aid in the journalistic work I provide this here link:

    link to

    It provides the viewer with mouth-words about the game, but fails to impress.

    • RandomGameR says:

      Stop it. You’re making me want to cry.

    • Hug_dealer says:

      thank you. thank you for ruining my hopes for ESO. They were still fainting beating up until this video.

      The most terrifying part. He says everyone has always wanted to play those games with a friend online. Exactly we wanted to play that game, not ELDER scrolls with WoW styled graphics, and MMO styled combat.

    • hamburger_cheesedoodle says:


  7. Hoaxfish says:

    what happens when a pensioner wants to view more of a word document?

  8. Jimbo says:

    Still needs more Shale tag.

  9. nasenbluten says:

    This will fail… horribly.

  10. Beelzebud says:

    Oh great, just what everyone wanted. Another MMO…..

    I refuse to play another MMO until I see one doing something completely original.

  11. Stevostin says:

    Bethesday cancelled the wrong game. Give us Prey 2 back, and forget that dumb ES MMO idea for ever and ever and ever.

    • somini says:

      Someone at Bethesda listen to this. Please… ;(

    • skyturnedred says:

      I was under the assumption that Prey 2 isn’t canceled, just that it wouldn’t be released on time in 2012.

  12. aliksy says:

    No one I know who has read any of the details about this is excited by it. Who is their audience?

    • MajorManiac says:

      Good question.

      As someone who really likes the Elder Scrolls games. This is like someone telling me they’ll give me a delicious pudding. Only to then take a photo of said pudding and give me the photo whilst saying – “This looks the same, and thus will be equally nourishing”.

  13. pilouuuu says:

    Oh, I thought this one had been cancelled for some reason…

  14. derella says:

    Ooo! People are standing!

    What a horrible teaser…

  15. Caiman says:

    When asked whether we can fly dragons, the response “There won’t be any dragons because we’re staying true to the lore” really showed how out of touch they are with what people want in these games. I could hear the deflation from here.

    • ShadyGuy says:

      Considering that ESO takes place during the Great War, which happened before the events in Skyrim they’re absolutely correct. However, seeing these screenshots I don’t get the feeling it’s very lore friendly at all.

    • Roshin says:

      I noticed (in the trailer) that elves appears to have been given a drastic makeover to look pretty and generic, like in every other fantasy game. I bet they’re natural born archers too and love nature for no obvious reason.

      • Brun says:

        Depends on the kind of elves they’re showing. Wood Elves fit closest to the stereotypical fantasy elf in that they live in the woods, love nature, and are natural archers and thieves.

  16. Greggh says:

    This trailer surpassed Warface’s in terms of crappiness. It’s crappy AND doesn’t tell anything about the game.

    Also, WARFACE

  17. Struckd says:

    totalbiscuit…a mailbox vid which he pretty much explains all the points ive been thinking….one thing hes good for at least…if anyone cares to watch:

  18. caddyB says:

    Wow. I mean, it must be a milestone that the whole internet seems to agree that this game is going to be bad.

    But what can they do, they must have already spent millions.

  19. ffordesoon says:

    I haven’t even watched it and I’m already over it.

    Here’s an idea, guys: instead of wasting time and money on an MMO, pull a Saints Row: The Third and let us put our created characters up on a website for other people to look at. There, I’ve solved the problem of people not being able to show off their characters to each other, which is the only complaint about the single-player nature of the main series I’ve ever heard. Surely setting up a Spore-esque website would be easier than making a WOW clone? Bioware did just that, and they’re struggling. Bioware. The ones who print money?

    Yes, it has DDO’s evasion mechanics, and a classless skill tree. So? It’s still boring old WOW with a couple of tweaks.


  20. Jason Moyer says:

    This game is an affront to the IP or something!

    Wait, it has Black Marsh, Elsewyr, Valenwood, and Summerset Isle in it? When does beta testing start?

  21. pipman3000 says:

    ain’t buying it unless i can smoke cat crack, worship a crazy guy, and eat thalmor.

  22. Geen says:

    Dammit Bethesda… I used to trust you… God fucking dammit.

    • ffordesoon says:

      In all fairness, the game is being developed by ZeniMax Online, not Bethesda.

  23. SkittleDiddler says:

    Holy crap, ESO is going to fail faster than Warhammer Online or SWTOR.

    Side note: RPS, your comment login system is the worst I’ve ever had to deal with, and it makes me not want to log in and comment at all. Please change it so I don’t get angry.

    • Stromko says:

      Probably so, those games at least looked pretty good. I rather enjoyed Warhammer Online, even, and SWTOR had some nice ideas, but the genre is kind of full-up right now.

    • Roshin says:

      F2P a couple of months after release, I think. If they actually make it to release.

  24. Stromko says:

    These publishers just lose all reason when they fantasize about the money they would make if they could put out the next World of Warcraft, and it never seems to enter their minds that the demand may have already been met. You can’t kill WoW, you can’t lure away its players, because they’re playing it now for the simple fact that it has the most players and is the biggest MMO going. It’s a chicken and egg problem.

    They’ve really screwed the pooch on the art style as well. WoW was partly a huge success because it brought in fans of Warcraft 3, and it LOOKED like Warcraft 3. Elder Scrolls Online looks like Everquest II, the most ugly and generic game I’ve ever played, except without Skaven. Skaven make everything better.

    • Phantoon says:

      SWG died when it tried to mimic WoW, and it had already been out a year!

  25. Shadram says:

    So the only connection with the Elder Scrolls games is the setting? I see absolutely no connection in game terms, not in mechanics, skill progression or ‘feel’ (whatever that is).

    Can’t they just call it ‘Cyrodiil Online’ (or whatever the name of the world is) and put just a little bit of distance between it and the proper Elder Scrolls game?

  26. Xardas Kane says:

    I see a lot of hate for a game that we haven’t really seen in action. Yes, I too am very sceptical, but at least wait for some gameplay before you condemn it. I have a bone to pick with TESO, but it has little to do with its perplexing design decisions, it’s more about lore.

    Each TES (except the first one, which I haven’t played) lets us explore a specific part of Tamriel. The whole game is built around that particular province, from the visuals to the interface and even the core gameplay mechanics – you won’t see any shouts in Morrowind after all. While all Elder Scrolls games do feel like one big franchise, each entry is significantly different from the last one to the point where some fans hate certain games because of how different they are. This approach really allows the developers to rebuild the core gameplay and create an experience that fits the style of that province. I loved the way they did this, it was just perfect.

    And now comes this… thing. A game that features ALL of the Tamriel provinces. Which means we can forget any sort of reinvention of the gameplay to suit a province, because all of them will be featured. It means a consistent visual design and art style across the whole of Tamriel, it means no gameplay mechanics that fit in with a particular province, it means less attention to detail and lore when crafting the provinces we haven’t seen before, because they don’t have a whole game dedicated to them. The whole idea of experiencing Tamriel one province at a time goes out of the window, in my opinion a core principle of the series all of a sudden receives a cold shoulder.

    I can not stress how much I hate this. I. Really. Just. Can’t.

    I have been waiting for close to a decade to finally go to Summerset Isles, I envisioned my first visit to the walking tree cities of Valenwood (yeah, I’m a lore nerd, if you are still wondering) to be in the vain of the way we visited Cyrodiil, Vvanderfell, Hammerfell and Skyrim, in a game that’s entirely built around said province. In other words, not like this. And to make matters worse, it is confirmed that while all provinces will be accessible, not all parts of them will be in the game, essentially making what is technically the biggest Elder Scrolls game ever made feel crippled and limited. It’s a bad decision that defies any logic. And seemingly the only province to be fully featured, Cyrodiil, will be scaled down. As if a province already 10 times smaller than its size according to the lore needed exactly that.

    For all I know the game just might end up becoming the best thing eva’. The main designer is the guy behind Dark Age of Camelot and he certainly knows how to make a good MMO. But I really would have preferred if they hadn’t put the Elder Scrolls name on it. And my biggest hope is that when Howard and his team get around to making TES 6, they completely ignore this game.

    I know very few people, if any, will complain about this, but to me as a hardcore fan it’s quite the big deal. Enough to justify this wall of text apparently.

    • Davie says:

      Well said. As someone who loves to dig into the lore and read about all the incredible uniqueness of each province’s geography and culture, it really rubs me the wrong way that we’ll be seeing half of them for the first time in a generalized manner that does nothing to bring out the character and atmosphere of each part of the setting.

    • rustybroomhandle says:

      And we are already familiar with the detailed, well documented lore. We know none of this stuff actually happened.

      All hail emperor pwnwad69!

      • Xardas Kane says:

        Ohhhh, don’t get me started on THAT. I mean, just the existence of any sort of a positive relationship between Morrowind, Skyrim and the Argonians makes absolutely no sense, period, what’s left fo this conflict I’ve never heard of. Dunmer use Argonians as slaves and are almost constantly at war with Skyrim, who the hell thought a pact makes any sense at all… I am very much certain each of these races would rather die alone than cooperate with each other.

        But I can somehow look pass that, Bethesda have retconned a lot of things after all. In Arena (I have played it for a couple of hours) Khatjiit were described as “having feline features”, but in no way being basically walking cats, same goes for Argonians, while Bosmer were just as tall as Altmer. Cyrodiil once had lush jungles, which somehow turned into forests in Oblivion.

        I can look pass that somehow, but that they will ruin my exploration of Tamriel by adding all provinces at once is somehing I will never get over.

        • Kestilla says:

          All at once and barely explored in any detail is the real killer.

  27. k4el says:

    Just cancel it now and fire whoever thought this was smart. Then make the next TES have 2 to 4 player coop and we can put this ugly business behind us.

  28. Premium User Badge

    Bluerps says:

    This looks just so incredibly bland. Do they really have nothing exciting to show?

  29. Jargo says:

    I always thought that an Elf in the Elder Scrolls Universe always have this diagonal eyes.
    I liked this because so they don’t look just like slim humans with pointy ears … like the mage in the trailer.

    • Brun says:

      Their appearance has varied slightly as game technology has progressed – in Oblivion they looked like humans with pointy ears. In Skyrim the elves look like Roswell Aliens.

      • Kestilla says:

        I like to forget about the Oblivion travesty because they outsourced the character creation in that game to the wonky Facegen technology. It’s like someone took a bunch of heads from the head museum of Futurama and plonked them down in Cyrodil.

  30. Lemming says:

    DOA, to be honest.

  31. ttcfcl says:

    Was that supposed to be a female orc in the middle of the video? That’s not what orcs look like :/

    • pipman3000 says:

      I think that’s an altmer, or at least I hope it is :(

      • Davie says:

        I hope it isn’t. She looks like a damn blood elf from WoW. I loved the mer in Skyrim and Morrowind that looked genuinely inhuman, not just pretty people with pointy ears. Even the art direction has no relation to the previous games.

  32. Kestilla says:

    Didn’t they say this game would let you explore previously unexplored parts of Tamriel?

    Give me a sequel so I can really explore previously unexplored parts of Tamriel, rather than stopping into a cave to hotkey a monster to death before progress-barring a mineral deposit out of the ground and then zoning back into the mindless monster fields where I will harvest sixteen more fresh wolf bladders..

  33. Arglebargle says:

    Sadly, ESO appears to be one of those games that started development 3-5 years ago, back when the WoW paradigm was the bee’s knees.

    Dislike the forced assignation of races to random alliances to fit their attempt to do a three way realm PVP. Too bad they didn’t go with three alliances that allowed players to make up their own minds as to which to join. I don’t think this one is going to have strong legs with the fans of the single player series. Co-op play is what I hear requested most.

    Oh well. It’s going to be a long, long fall, if they don’t nail some aspects of this game in a truely superior way. I do not have my fingers crossed for them though.

  34. hopedavis342 says:

    until I looked at the check four $5877, I did not believe that…my… brother woz actualy erning money in there spare time at there labtop.. there dads buddy had bean doing this for only about six months and just repayed the loans on their cottage and bought a new Mazda. we looked here,