Sob: Thief 4 Sneaking Onto Next Gen Consoles?

The release year.

While Thief 4 has never had anything approaching a release date, following the ripe success of Deus Ex 3, and its having been in development for over four years, it was tempting to think it might be coming nearer. Well, forget that, because a rumour in the latest Official Xbox Magazine – and further validated by CVG – suggests that they’re now aiming for it to be a next-next-gen console release. And that means it’d be Christmas 2013 at the very, very earliest.

Rumours have flown every whichway about the project, mostly because Square Enix and Eidos Montreal have been so damned silent about it. That tends to indicate a project that’s in trouble, as a rule – one that keeps receiving do-overs, reaching certain milestones and not being considered good enough. Of course, there’s no evidence at all that that’s the case here. But things have been odd, with a completed trailer from December last year never getting released, and any footage that’s appeared from it having since vanished from the internet, entire blogs deleted. Kotaku also lists the many developers who have left the project in the last year or so, but bear in mind it’s not unusual for people to move on to a new project after three or four years. And they also spot that level designer, Fabien Morisson, pointed out on his LinkedIn that he’d designed the last level of the game.

Deciding to make the game for the next generation of consoles could mean only small or absolutely massive changes. If their engine is scalable, and just needed better tech to be better realised, then it’ll just be a case of getting to grips with the debug prototype consoles they’ll have by now, and porting it across. If they’re after new tech because the version they’ve made just can’t reach far enough, then it could mean a massive overhaul. Either way, it means a PC version of the game will inevitably get stuck waiting for Microsoft and Sony to release their next boxes, both rumoured to be for Christmas next year. Then you have to wonder if Square are going to be willing to risk being launch titles, going out to the most limited audience possible, or wait a few months for the consoles to be in enough homes. That would put the game somewhere into 2014.

Which is all to say, don’t hold your breath (while crouching in a dark corner) for the game.

We approached Square Enix for comment, but they had none.


  1. StingingVelvet says:

    Makes sense, it’s not this Christmas and early next year is packed. Might as well make it a launch title, which is what Eurogamer suggested it will be. We shall see though.

    In the end I trust this studio to do it right, after how well Deus Ex Human Revolution turned out.

  2. IshtarGate says:

    It seems the only way to get a game from Eidos Montreal is to never ask for it.

  3. mikmanner says:

    NOOOOO Damn Rubbish Boxes

  4. pupsikaso says:

    What’s stopping them from releasing it now and then simply porting it to whatever consoles come out in a few years time?

    • Xocrates says:

      Probably the fact that if they did that, they would have little reason not to release it to the current consoles instead.

      In fact, the only reason they would have to release now would be if the current version had such requirement that only a PC could run it, and the game wouldn’t feel outdated in the next gen consoles in a year or two, which, while possible, it’s extremely unlikely if they had been making the game for current gen up to this point.

  5. aliksy says:

    Ugh. Consoles. Looking forward to having several disparate functions bound to the same key!

    • Jason Moyer says:

      Just like in Human Revolution! Oh, wait.

      • Marik Bentusi says:

        DXHR’s PC version was outsourced tho. Unless they do the same thing with Thief, how the PC version will play is anyone’s guess.

  6. Soon says:

    Well, at least we’re somewhat hono(u)red with an alternative in the meantime.

  7. mehteh says:

    This just adds more fear of it being a shallow, consolized mess made for casuals

    • magnus says:

      Face-Palm/sigh/head desk combo follows.

      • Tyrone Slothrop. says:

        In the name of what ever universal decency prevents one from being shot by the odd, armed stranger in the street why do I keep coming to these comments? The platform xenophobia, the utterly perfect case study in externalising flaws to some nebulous, hated Other, the nit-picking, the presumption and complete lack of evidence that people base their opinions on, the smugness of all participants who tacitly view themselves above GameFAQs discourse but are never above the most elementary logical fallacy dressed with five-dollar vernacular (the pretence of which is incomparably more infuriating than the base assault on formal logic) or will obliviously take an obvious troll seriously… like I have here… I mean I hope that comment is trolling… someone, hold me close and tell me they’re trolling.

        • SirKicksalot says:

          I read that in your avatar’s voice.

        • Imbecile says:

          I also get very frustrated with the elitist, close-minded anti console comments. I dont like platform bashing at the best of times, but the infuriatingly superior smugness of the pc breed really does irritate me.

          Also – looking forward to thief 4. Hope they take their time and do a good job. It didn’t look like it was coming out any time soon anyway…I guess we have dishonored for that (also available on consoles, the horror!)

          • pupsikaso says:

            I am horrified you do not see the flaws in console games…

          • Xardas Kane says:

            Name some.

          • aepervius says:

            It is not all smugness. The Console are fixed hardware. They don’t evolve with time. But hardware evolve relatively quickly (still9 and thus console hardware get relatively quickly within a few years outdated (coincidentally by the time the dev have a really good handle on the architecture). That make all console outdated and outperformed by PC hardware the time half a generation go thru. There is no smugness in remarking that fact thus plain observation.

            That is not a problem if PC and console game would be separated. But see, what make most PC user a tad bit angry, is that it used to be that game advance parallel to the hardware advance, thus getting more complex game, open world, continuous level and so forth. But with the last generation of console , it nearly all trudged to an halt, where game developer had to program stuff and designer make level for the LOWEST common denominator, or develop totally different code/level for the different plateform (which is then twice as expansive and maintain). Thus the “consolisation” of game.

            Then there was the contract the game dev sign off for exclusivity to a console or at least a time limited monopoly on the game.

            The end result is that a serie of platform which are factually less powerful in hardware capability definitively slowed game advance. One has to wonder what new capability, new AI, new level design we would have if the console were not here as limiter.

            There might be a few trace of smugness here and there, but by now most PC gamer are also console gamer, I know of no “gamer” on PC which don’t have at least one console. So i don’t think it is the case of smugness but rather of comparison. Console are simply very old and definitively holding us back.

            Now we can argue all day if it is really an important factor or not, after all game design and the story should be more important than the tech, but the plain fact still remain. Console are inferior in technical capability to your modern PC. They have other advantage over PC like stable hardware. But on the technical limitation there is no close call, they are inferior. maybe vastly so by now.

          • chopsnsauce says:

            The upside of games being developed for console first is that ALL games will run well on your PC.

            Back when games were PC only, you be lucky to get the latest games running at 10 FPS on your new £1000 PC.

            Every cloud…

          • Xardas Kane says:

            Here we have yet another fellow that never read the headline. Next gen. Say it with me now, NEXT GEN.

            As for consoles holding back PCs – I don’t mind that and neither should you. I don’t mind that I don’t have to waste 1000 bucks every 2 years for an upgrade. I don’t mind that developers need to focus on something besides graphics to make their games interesting. I don’t mind the state at which graphics are, in fact I think games look just fine now.

            And since when consoles being a closed environment means they are stagnating? Look at The Last of Us and compare it to any PS3 game that has come before. Hell, compare it to any PC game that has come before, would you? Yes, the 360 is a bit on the weak side, but hardly that much.

            Lastly, a lot, and I mean a whole lot, of developers are saying that right now they can pretty much do whatever they want. Todd Howard mentioned in an interview that had the game come out on next gen it would feature higher res textures for instance, but there was nothing gameplay-wise they couldn’t do with the current gen hardware. I’ve heard the same thing from many other developers – Ken Levine, Warren Spector, David Jaffe – according to them they don’t feel restricted by the hardware. And really now, we have seen what current PC hardware can do in the likes of The Witcher 2 and Battlefield 3. Both fantastic looking games, especially The Witcher 2 (which also has wonderful art direction to boot), but graphics aside, none of them did anything actually new that made me think “yes, developers are being restricted by consoles”. I just saw no such thing. Better particle, higher res, better lighting and tesselation support, but gameplay-wise? Didn’t seem all that different.

        • Xardas Kane says:

          One would think that after almost a full decade of simultaneous console/PC development the PC Elitists would get off their high and mighty thrones and acknowledge the fact that we are all gamers and in the end of the day it’s the games that matter, not the hardware. It’s as the likes of Human Revolution or Dark Souls never happened and whether consoles can support more a “hardcore”gaming experience is still up in the air. The lengths at which such pathetic trolls would go in their attempts to justify their superiority is simply appalling and reading comments like that just make feel embarrassed that I call myself a PC gamer.

          Before Human Revolution’s release such concerns I could’ve viewed as somewhat justified. But after HR CLEARLY showed that a game as complex as Deus Ex (and let’s face it, Deus Ex is quite a bit more complex than Thief) can work on consoles just fine, the very least we can do is give the developers who managed to follow up successfully one of the best PC games of all time ON CONSOLES the benefit of the doubt.

          But no, the PC elitist will remain a prick and bitch and whine, Disgusting.

          • Yosharian says:

            DE:HR was horribly consolized… it’s revealing that you choose that game as your shining example.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            Nice of you not to give a single example of that.

          • Yosharian says:

            To be honest I’m tired of such discussions myself, and can’t be bothered to summon up examples. Really though, if you’ve played Deus Ex and DE:HR I’d think it’s quite obvious where the ‘streamlining’ as developers like to call it has affected the game.

          • chopsnsauce says:

            Complex is not necessarily better.

            Streamlining is pretty much always a good thing.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            I have played all games. I completely disagree with your empty assertions. THE ONLY things that could be traced back to consoles were the way melee works and that there weren’t as many augmentations that need activating, Haaardly a big deal now, is it?

          • Yosharian says:

        • Faxmachinen says:

          Funny you should mention this here, seeing as the Thief series is a perfect example of turning to shit the moment it hit console.

          Sure, you can blame unreasonable expectations, neophobia, or even LGS’ downfall. But what really nailed the coffin for me was how each level was butchered into tiny pieces so they would fit into Xbox’s RAM.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            And is that going to be an issue in the NEXT GEN CONSOLES? The ones that are rumoured to have EIGHT GBs of RAM? Eh? Or are you just desperately clawing at every straw you can find?

          • Tyrone Slothrop. says:

            See, this is -exactly- part of the problem; Morrowind was released on the Xbox, Thief 3 could have been a sprawling game of incredible scope but it was a whole mess of issues relating to technical failings, mismanagement, developer fuck-ups, publisher incompetence, personality conflicts, staffing failures, etc. Out of this amazing myriad of problems, it’s -consoles- that are scapegoated. To compound this classic trick, rather than just saying it was a disappointing game in many respects, an intelligent qualifier that permits nuance and complexity you just say it ‘ turn[ed] to shit the moment it hit console.’

          • Jim Reaper says:

            Sorry, but I resent consoles. I resent how they have been the lead platform for the last seven years. I resent how we have all been restricted by their specifications. I resent that the only time my PC has been taxed in the last seven years has been due to un-optimised, shoddy ports. You cite Deus Ex HR as an example of a complex console game, but it was still severely limited to small hubs. You cite the rumoured EIGHT GBs of RAM the next consoles might posses, like it’s not several years overdue.

            Speaking of rumours, It will be very interesting to see precisely what the next generation entails. Just look at the direction Microsoft has taken the XBox. No longer “just” a games console, but an entertainment centre “enhanced” with advertising, with games relegated to a side note. Also, rumours abound of your games being tied to an account to stop second hand sales…

            In conclusion, though elitism is never a good thing, I look back at the games I thought, fifteen years ago, I’d be playing now, and can’t help but feel disappointed with the shallow, barren worlds we have been presented with thus far….and yes, consoles have played a big part in that, and I resent them for it.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            Got a question for you, Reaper – you actually believe the hubs in HR are as big as they are (in other word, several times bigger than those in the original) because of consoles? So, uuhm, Skyrim? Just Cause 2? GTA IV? Every open-world game this generation?

            And I play games, because I want to play GAMES. Graphics nowadays are on a level that I am perfectly content with, you can keep your over-glorified tech demos. I haven’t upgraded my rig in 3 years, I can still play almost every game maxed out and you know what? I am fine with it Times were, people would whine about how it was all about graphics and not gameplay. Now that it’s the other way around all of a sudden everyone has had a change of heart. How interesting.

          • Tyrone Slothrop. says:

            but it was still severely limited to small hubs.

            See, I find citing ‘nostalgia’ as a response often evasive but even the ONE piece of evidence you cite that is solid is utterly wrong. Contrast the original’s Hell’s Kitchen to Human Revolution‘s Detroit in terms of physical, explorable space the latter is far larger with multi-stage side-quests whereas there was really only one of comparable size in the original (Smuggler and Ford Schick). It’s also vastly more detailed as should be expected but the scale is such even without the utterly-nonsensical spaces of nothingness in what was once and should have been astoundingly valuable property that no city planner or architect would ever allow in the centre of one of the busiest cities on earth. As a bonus, it has less loading dividers as many apartments are contiguous to the exterior, the ‘Ton is not.

            Likewise, Heng Sha is far larger but it’s actually, you know, a dense urban centre so at ground-level it’s naturally supposed to feel cramped (shit, some people even live in ‘coffin hotels’ or ‘pods’) but offers a far superior and consistent amount of verticality, far greater variety, more residential areas, dozens upon dozens of miscellaneous stores and if you include the Tai Yong complex it’s just a total wash even if you include Versalife as part of the original’s rendition of Hong Kong. Remember, even the largest area of Wan Chai in Hong Kong was the canal portion and that’s solely because there are these massive rectangular holes with a water texture near the top that offer no benefit to exploring apart from two barges in one area (side areas and the collapsed tunnel are really next to, rather than being part of the canal).

            I say this as someone who played the original over a dozen times and could basically tell you the minutiae of virtually every secret in the game (people find the dead scientist in the collapsed tunnel but seldom go the other direction to what initially appears just to be a flat section of collapsed tunnel, in reality there’s some gaps in the debris on the right-hand side and swimming around it will net a mod and an exploration bonus) and is on a fourth (sixth if you include the leaked preview alpha) playthrough of Human Revolution.

            Even if you think nothing I’ve said will penetrate your clearly erroneous impression, at the very least concede they’re not even changed enough in size for you to call them ‘small hubs’… which already took an incredible amount of work you don’t seem to recognise because of some inherent tainting by, horror of horrors, those fixed platforms.

            Edit: I thought you were suggesting the levels were small in comparison to the original, but overall? Considering what’s in the level as opposed to a sandbox game and how much work, you know, artistry, asset-creation, level design, playtesting, etc. You have to be severely ignorant to think that just making them bigger is just a function of more computational power. Eidos-Montreal had to cut two planned hubs not because of whatever perverse conception you have of consoles but because of raw developmental resources and time. In fact, this entire conversation is moot, the developer revealed early on they added a streaming capability to the engine that could potentially have arbitrarily large levels but still decided to break certain things into discrete areas for general -gameplay- stability.

          • Jim Reaper says:

            Ahh yes, Skyrim, with its distance rendering cut-offs, such as disappearing grass, frozen waterfalls, and the smudge of a texture up the hill in the distance. The majesty of the landscape brings a tear to the eye. Just Cause 2, GTA IV…yes, yes, the worlds were there, but without a great deal of complex interaction or content…

            Oh, and you make the common mistake of assuming that this is all about graphics. It isn’t. I don’t like tech demos either, but try getting a complex sprawling world with intertwining systems to work with just 512MB of RAM. I want to play GAMES too, but the ones we have now pale in comparison to their predecessors. You can keep the tiny hubs of Thief 3. Give me the rooftops of Thief 2 any day…

          • Tyrone Slothrop. says:

            Just Cause 2, GTA IV…yes, yes, the worlds were there, but without a great deal of complex interaction or content…

            And the incredible PC-exclusive that puts both to shame with equally large worlds but a great deal of complex interaction and content? There isn’t one because I’d be playing the fuck out of it. It’s a question of -development resources- you dense, dense person. The interplay and systems of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. isn’t beyond console means though the graphics and certainly the horrendous engine are. Also, GTA IV has far more content than most games and is an astounding achievement in terms of how polished it is considering that.

            Oh, and you make the common mistake of assuming that this is all about graphics. It isn’t. I don’t like tech demos either, but try getting a complex sprawling world with intertwining systems to work with just 512MB of RAM. I want to play GAMES too, but the ones we have now pale in comparison to their predecessors. You can keep the tiny hubs of Thief 3. Give me the rooftops of Thief 2 any day…

            Thief 2 required 48 mbs of ram and I presume you think that- had ‘a complex, sprawling world with intertwining systems’ even though, and it’s a genuine masterpiece which I love, it was quite a simple game with basic gameplay systems which in terms of sophistication are easily surpassed by any Deus Ex, all of which ended up on a console, fuck, Dwarf Fortress could run on a toaster and that’s genuinely complex yet you seem not to want tech demos, so there’s literally no reason why complex games cannot have minor requirements… but you seem to evidently want incredible graphics and tonnes of content because you nitpick about Skyrim and refuse to realise how it refutes your contention about small level sizes.

            You don’t understand that level sizes with what your vaguely complaining isn’t the standard is a developmental issue, not a hardware one, especially not since it’s been easily possible to make games that are arbitrarily large. To put it another way, the Euphoria middle-ware is arguably capable of producing the best animations seen in games, the best dynamism, natural blending under a superlative range of situations, what have you. No PC-exclusive has come close to what Rockstar have achieved with it in terms of realistic movement, reactions and environmental-based locomotion on consoles and PC with the sole exception of Overgrowth which does nothing that would tax console hardware. In your counterpart’s mind, this should be all the fault of inferior PC hardware…. but since we know obviously PC hardware is tautologically more powerful in a more powerful machine, that’s not the reason. It’s just because the developers gave a shit and decided work on that but in your manichean world it’s consoles.

            No, fuck all this, I’m glad you’re disproportionately upset at superlative modern releases because with your ironic possession of both ignorance and elitism you deserve to be until you listen to basic reasoning.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            But Reaper, read the headline – NEXT GEN it says, see? Next gen. Not current gen, NEXT gen. And the worlds were there but there was no interaction? The hell kind of interaction do you want?!

          • GepardenK says:

            Half Life 2 was released for both PC and consoles but is clearly a PC game still. Skyrim was released to both PC and consoles but is clearly a console game in heart.

            What I’m trying to say here is that the overly enthusiastic PC vs Console debates is a battle of cultures; not specs. Skyrim would be a completely different game if it was made specificly for PC, so would Half life 2 if it was made for consoles. This is what makes ppl mad

            So if a PC gamer is mad at consoles then he mostly likely is mad because of stuff like QTE’s, regenerating health, linear levels or straight quest lines, big graphics and text, massive use of shaders and bloom, useless cutscenes everywhere etc etc. I don’t think he is really mad at the box itself or the controls; whenever he realizes it or not.

          • D3xter says:

            I’ve owned consoles in the past like the SNES, Sega Mega and several of the portable ones over the years and enjoyed them a lot (still do with the likes of Mario or Epic Mickey… those are “console games” for me) but why I enjoy the PC more and will valiantly defend it is kind of two-pronged.

            1) Games just usually end up being better and more varied on the PC if they are developed with the PC in mind, since gaming has gone Mass Market it is kind of like “let’s simplify this as much as possible”, “let’s copy Call of Duty” seems to summarize a large portion of design documents in regards to gaming.
            There’s also great examples of the regression of gaming from developers that were mainly PC and turned console e.g.: Baldur Gate/Dragon Age –> Dragon Age 2; Crysis –> Crysis 2, or let’s take Deus Ex –> Deus Ex: Invisible War

            In the case of Bioware they kind of sucked all the complexity and variety our of their games to turn them into bad/evil dating simulators with “gratifying” combat involving dozens of exploding limbs. In the case of CryTek they turned from a fresh, innovative open world play style into a constricted cut scene heavy clone of several other shooters. Large environments didn’t fit together with the amount of RAM the consoles have so they had to largely remove them, “vertical combat” didn’t fit very well with the way controllers work so it kind of had to be cut out and gave way to largely “horizontal – in-front-of-you” combat. There are far reaching design decisions to be made early in the process of making a video game based on which “platform” will be the main one.

            I guess what I’m saying is if the PC was still the focus we’d still get a bunch more varied and fun games, the kind Bullfrog or Origin used to make. They were mainly games that people wanted to make and put their all into it while a large part of today’s console games are focus-group based designs and increasingly even games based on monetization.

            Entire genres like Real Time Strategy, Adventure Games, God Games, Management Games, Party-based/tactical RPGs, Simulators etc. all but died with the advent of the “great” last generation of consoles and have slowly tried to somewhat recover when Digital Distribution took off.

            Those genres aren’t properly possible to do on consoles because of the input dynamic and that’s where the money is (or where everyone deemed it to be), so they all fell dead. Even today the largest part of “AAA” games on PC are console ports.

            There was a great quote from a recent interview with Chris Avellone:
            Mark: Besides the revival of “dead genres” do you think we will see a difference in games made by developers who utilize crowdsourcing like Kickstarter in contrast to developers that work with publishers?

            Chris: Yes, on a high level, they’ll make more interesting designs and on a low level, they’ll be more than happy to make use of the keyboard for inputs rather than worrying about mapping it to a controller. This sounds like a minor thing, but it’s not. I can’t tell you how happy I was to be driving home from inXile one evening trying to figure out how we’d pull off a function using the controller, and it occurred to me THAT IT’S NOT OUR PROBLEM ANY MORE, and the “issue” was solved. THANK GOD.

            There’s also times I remember playing Ultima Online as a kid and thinking “If they can do this now! (referring to the entire eco-system and complexity of it with reputation system, dozens of working “jobs”, player housing etc.) Just wait till technology improves! Oh boy, what they can do in 20 years times!”
            Little did I know that we’d regress from a state where games were complex and thoughtful in design to one where pressing a button repeatedly to make something die “button – awesome” is usually the height of complexity in the next 15 years…

            2) The “Open-Source” versus the corporate “Walled-Garden” approach.

            We wouldn’t have the likes of Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress or Magicka (or a large number of other games from the Indie scene) without the PC, and a lot of games that have been spawned by Mods with certain developers like Valve, DICE (or Blizzard previously) thriving on that kind of “Mod culture” and getting their talent from there. The “console companies” are kind of trying to squish that out nowadays, because they’ve got their whole DLC scam going on and want to profit as much as they possibly can off of it.

            Microsoft especially is to blame for a lot of this, they have discovered they could charge for DLC during their first run with the Xbox and have made it a REQUIREMENT for all their content updates on the Xbox360, at first some protested (like EPIC/Team 17/Bizarre Creations and most notably Valve) but most of them gave in over time e.g. they wanted to create an “environment of value” (which means NOTHING shall be free or else people might get used to it…): link to

            It’s also mostly about “exclusivity” for them, or rather “who has more money to literally buy out or force a developer to be exclusive” and the amount of control each party wants to exercise on their platform (including pricing, pay2play for online, licensing fees, telling which game is “getting a release” on their platform and which doesn’t because it doesn’t “fit into the image” they are trying to represent, trying to get more money out of indies while pushing them into a corner and all that… link to ) don’t exactly make me want to buy one of their consoles either.
            Back in the day, they also bought many PC mainly developers like EPIC or Remedy off (even Halo was supposed to be a PC/Mac title) and made the internal studios that developed games for PC like Microsoft Games Studios or Ensemble turn to console development instead.

            Let’s not forget Certification and Patching, something which can be done on the PC with the push of a button takes at least a month in console land and there’s royalties for all sorts of things e.g. off of every sale, for every download and even the amount of discs used – which are limited by the size of a DVD, and their downloadable games/”content” are limited by the arbitrary tiny size of their harddrives they ask at least 3x what they are worth for.

            There’s also the “choice” of how you want to play a game, on consoles you are kind of limited to play it a certain way… with whatever kind of new Motion controller or whatever they want you to do it. On the PC it is basically my choice and I will do it with a Mouse+Keyboard for the likes of RTS, Turn-Based RPGs, Shooters!, will turn to my Controller for Platformers, Brawlers and more consoley games or can even use the Dolphin Emulator to enjoy Nintendo games in full glory at 1080p, wheel and pedals for racing games, joystick for flight sims etc. At the end of the day I’d rather spend 500€ on a new graphics card and feel better about myself than buy into their corporate culture and support them in what they are doing and trying to do to gaming as it’s mostly damaging it.

            Not to say that the consoles at the moment are in the process to alienate even their “simplistic minded” gamer crowd, starting with the Wii and then Microsoft turning all their studios towards churning out things for the Kinect, because they have discovered there might be an even *broader* market there

          • Xardas Kane says:

            You’ve got quite the hefty response there.

            1. No. Just no. Call of Duty, and I must add that the series hasn’t changed much from Call of Duty 1, started on PC, so blame the PC for that franchise. I can’t talk about Crysis 2 (because I didn’t like the original that much to begin with) or why DA2 was the way it was, but the thinking behind IW was very different from what you describe and had virtually nothing to do with consoles. To quote Harvey Smith “We fucked up”. We made the wrong decisions”. Game design decisions, mind you, and should I point for the gazillionth time at Human Revolution?! I’m also fairly sure DA2’s biggest problem was the 18 month development cycle and not consoles of all things, Origins didn’t play all that differently compared to DA 2 on consoles either, and console gamers complained about the dumbing down and refused to buy the darn thing almost as much as PC gamers. Yes, DA2 didn’t do as well commercially.

            I don’t get how consoles can’t support large environments, yet games like Skyrim or even Morrowind on the first Xbox exist. I just don’t get that. I’m not a programmer, maybe there is some reasoning there, but I don’t see it. I also don’t see how Crysis is “vertical”, in fact thanks to the New York setting Crysis 2 is a lot more “vertical”.

            Then you make a statement that sound real nasty to me. So basically only PC developers put their all into their games, is that what you’re saying? You are basically dismissing every console developer out there as a lazy moron who doesn’t “put his all” into his work? That’s not very nice now, is it? And for every Bullfrog and Origin there is a Rare or Naughty Dog, mind you.

            Entire genres didn’t die because of consoles. Last time I checked Adventure games were considered dead at the turn of last century, yet PC gaming was still kind of a big deal back then, wasn’t it? Can’t blame the death of adventure games on consoles, sorry. Same goes for God games – that genre lived and died unfortunately with Bullfrog, consoles had nothing to do with that. Dungeon Keeper 2 launched at the height of PC gaming. Nobody bought it. The highly intelligent and well versed in all manners of proper gaming PC community waved a middle finger and ignored that game, what did consoles have to do with it? Same thing with sims – and what sims exactly? Race sims have are mostly on consoles these days, space sims died off, yet again, at the height of PC gaming in the late 90s because nobody bought them. Huh, would you look at that. Same goes for Management games – PC gamers stopped buying them long before consoles really kicked in. You just can NOT blame anyone but the PC community, even if it’s always much easier to point a finger at someone else.

            So that leaves us with RTSs and party-based RPGs. I personally lost all interest in RTS games because after StarCraft there was basically no innovation going on, just mindless iterations of a formula we had already seen, it was a lack of originality that killed the genre more than anything else. The only studios that tried to do something new and different were Relic and Massive. Massive’s World in Conflict was unfortunately not that successful, but Relic are releasing a RTS game next year. Turn-Based Strategies meanwhile miraculously survive, even though they are on PC and by your logic should by all means be dead. Instead they are experiencing a small Renaissance right now. TBSs are around, yet RTSs were killed by consoles, huh, rather selective if you ask me. Party-based RPGs – KOTOR..? It is indeed a genre that’s dear to me and saying that consoles didn’t contribute to its decline would be wishful thinking, but still, KOTOR?

            Avellone is right about that. It’s a challenge, but it’s a challenge that can be overcome. I will repeat myself – Human Revolution is a much more complex game than Thief in terms of controls, yet it works with a pad. I see no reason for Thief not to work with a controller as well.

            Ultima Online is a pretty stupid example to give here. It’s a MMO. MMOs are on PC. How the hell can you blame consoles for the state MMOs are in? Yes, nobody is doing what Ultima did, how is that because of consoles?

            2. I agree with a lot of what you say, that’s why I prefer the PC, but none of it really has much to do with the topic at hand. Mods are fantastic, but I thought we were talking about whether Thief could run on consoles, mods are a whole other story. Yes, the patching process for Xbox 360 sucks (haven’t heard complaints about the PS3 though and that’s a console; PC patching does NOT happen with the push of a button, not on Steam anyways). Yes, MineCraft, Madicka and Dwarf Fortress are awesome, so are Braid, Journey and The Unfinished Swan. Nobody “bought out” Epic, their last 2 PC games just didn’t sell – are consoles to blame for that as well? And how come Epic were “bought out”, yet, you know, Fortnite? Remedy were bought out? Which Remedy game exactly hasn’t come to the PC? Halo was supposed to be on the PC? Uhmm, no, it was supposed to be on the Mac, but the deal didn’t go through, blame Steve Jobs for that. Ensemble made a single game for consoles, while owned by Microsoft they also released Age of Mythology (PC exclusive) and Age of Empires 3 (PC exclusive) as well as a bunch of expansion packs for those games.

            Yes, you can choose between a controller and keyboard and mouse, I again fail to see how that relates to Thief not working properly on consoles. Yes, you can use NES emulators to play old games, you can also buy them from WiiWare. There are joysticks and racing wheels for consoles as well, doesn’t seem like you know that. You constantly talk about Microsoft, yet they are one of the 3 major console manufacturers. What about the PS3? Are games like The Last of Us or Beyond: Two Souls “simplistic minded”? Because pardon me if I disagree.

            Overall, a whole lot of general talk that doesn’t really relate to Thief and a lot of sugar coating and blaming consoles for things they never had a part of. You want to know who killed space sims and adventure games? We did. The PC gamers. Stop blaming the consoles for that.

          • aepervius says:

            Xardas, see skyrim fits in a console because they are using tricks to fit it in. They are memory limited so they load chunks on the fly. And whatever is beyond the view of the player, is simply approximated rather than having a world simulation in memory. I am not sure how much an impact it had with skyrim, and oblivion, but it certainly is a hardware limitation at play here, as with 512 Mb you have to jungle around much more than the 4Gb minimum all PC have nowadays. Furthermore you are forced to trick with the interface, because with 8 buttons you can do much less than with a keyboard. Finally graphically you want to hide as much possible with static graphic, thus this generation game shoving gigantic weapon into your view.

            There is definitively an impact of the hardware. Now we can argue until death on how much that impact slowed development down and forced limitation in the game, but they are there. ignoring them or dismissing them because some game successfully gave the illusion those limitation are not there, is counter productive.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            As a gamer I care about the game. Did Skyrim work on consoles? Yes. Was some trickery involved? Yes. Do I care one bit? No. Thief is coming out on NEXT GEN consoles and that’s supposed to hurt it? When a. it can use those same tricks and b. it’s on NEXT GEN consoles? Huh, no.

            Indeed we can argue to death about how much current gen impacts game development. But I feel the need to quote the article’s headline here: “Sob: Thief 4 Sneaking Onto Next Gen Consoles?”

          • Jahandar says:

            lol, yay, finally next-gen consoles to solve yesterday’s problems. Meanwhile, then game development will be stifled and constrained to fit 2013 hardware for the next decade while PC will have moved on. Typical console mindset to only focus one what is needed today.

            We’re already seeing developers like Epic saying that the proposals for next gen consoles are already limiting their future plans as they won’t even be able to fully support next gen engines.

        • Malawi Frontier Guard says:

          I always twitch if I read the word xenophobia on RPS.

        • waltersphnesphne says:

          “complete lack of evidence that people base their opinions”. <<– Here's my issue. Console fanboy's talk hardware and software like it's 'opinion', when it's cold, hard, scientific, fact. 'Next-gen' consoles, were behind PC's on the day their release. Hell, the PS4 uses a mid-low end LAPTOP APU running at 1.6ghz, that is now 2 years old. According to moore's law, processing power doubles every two years. What this means is that a current mid-range gaming PC packs more than double the performance of so called 'next-gen' consoles. Compared to high-end gaming rigs today, 'next-gen' consoles are like toys. It's a joke. And the console manufacturers who spend millions of dollars to convince you to buy that piece of junk hardware, are obviously succeeding. So no, it's not OPINION, it's fact. When PS4 struggles to display 1080p at 60fps, and PC's have been doing that for almost a decade, something has to click. Thief 4 itself, is apparently running at 30fps on PS4 (with, according to one reviewer ‘framerate drops into the single digits), and xbox not only is framerate damning evidence of it's crappy hardware, but 900p??? These consoles have only just been released, PC’s are moving onto 2k resolutions, how will consoles hold up for another 5 years if they can’t keep up now? So, inform yourself before you come spewing your console propoganda fed to you by microsony.

          Btw, I have no issue with people who own playstations or xbox's. If people are happy playing on them, that's fine, it's there choice. But when people like you come along and talk absolutely nonsense and tell people who actually know something about hardware that they have no facts, or it's opinions, it's YOU that needs to get a clue.

  8. Arkon540 says:

    Thief Is my absolute favorite franchise, everything about the games are perfect to me, the atmosphere, setting, ambiance, and sound design ALL still hold up today against the best our current generation can muster. I recently went back to play Thief 1 and 2, and I was pleasantly surprised that it still holds up really well. No seriously, this is not my nostalgia talking.

    The first 2 games at least were made by brilliant people and you can feel the legacy they left behind in it still to this day. I can see how every facet of the game is carefully crafted to perfectly work and convey exactly what they were trying to build… I don’t see this in a lot of games anymore.

    That being said. I REALLY hope they do not screw this up…

    • jon_hill987 says:

      Well they screwed up Deus Ex 2 and 3, face it, it will be a mess.

      • Arkon540 says:

        I was satisfied with DX:HR. Could have been a lot better though. But that’s beside the point, I personally have no stake in Deus Ex universe, it never interested me a whole lot like Thief did. I just love the steampunk medieval-ish setting.

      • woodsey says:

        What does Invisible War have to do with anything?

        (In reply to jon_hill. Fucked that one up.)

      • Xocrates says:

        If “screwing up” means a game as good as Human Revolution, I would be perfectly fine with them screwing up

      • Loopy says:

        DX:HR was a decent game in my eyes and I don’t regret paying full price for it at launch at all. Although not quite up to the genius level of the first game it was definitely way better than IW.

      • jezcentral says:

        Where did this DXHR backlash come from? I know people like to hate the boss fights, which was less than 1% of the game, but how can anyone think it was anything less than a good game?

      • RakeShark says:

        I’m with the others, DXHR was a step in the right direction for the series after DX2, and a hell of a lot better than its peers of the time. She put on a hell of a show.

    • waltersphnesphne says:

      hey, it’s me… guess what… thief is out, they screwed it up!

  9. dogsolitude_uk says:

    Dammit, I’ll be 40 by the time this one comes out! ¬_¬

    Still, I like to think that if it’s coming out on next-gen consoles then the levels may be a bit bigger than two shoeboxes stuck together. And hopefully they’ll have enough time to put together a decent UI and control system that’s suitable for a PC.

    But… *sigh*

  10. db1331 says:

    I don’t see how they can market this game to the current/future console crowd without seriously fucking it up. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it turn into an AC clone that is much more about combat than stealth. Basically what they are doing with Splinter Cell.

    • woodsey says:

      From the unofficially-official trailer that was released, I’d say they balanced the marketing about right. Very flourish-y and stylish, but also dark and with all the correct Thief parts in place.

      • Phantoon says:

        But marketing has zero impact on how a game plays.

        • woodsey says:

          Didn’t say it did.

          I’m saying they managed to make a trailer which had all the flashy shit you need in a modern trailer whilst also proving to be recognisably Thief-y. If they’ve done that then it’d seem apparent that they know how to market themselves to that audience whilst remaining aware of the franchise they’re working on.

          The game may turn out to be utter shit and the trailer might be completely off the mark, but having read interviews with them and having played DXHR, I’d say it shows they’ve got the right frame of mind to go about it.

    • waltersphnesphne says:

      game is out, with 6/10 across the board, I say well done to you sir. you are a scholar, a seer, and a gentleman. then again, good franchises tend to go under thanks to greedy console publishers.

      here, have a meme:

      link to

  11. Jamesworkshop says:

    I think this is a good thing, it just means we will get a technically better version with the raising of the minimum tech base.

  12. webwielder says:

    Am I the only one whose favorite was Deadly Shadows? The graphics (especially the lighting) are still beautiful today, and I loved the open city environment and merchants and so forth. I think it successfully retained the atmosphere and writing of the first two. Pity about the crappy CG cut scenes, but there were an equal amount of the badass 2D style from the first two as well.

    • DK says:

      The Hag’s reveal animatic remains one of the most badass “I’m the Villain! Behold!” moments of videogame history.

    • Vorphalack says:

      I doubt you will be, but Thief 3 lovers will be in the minority compared to 1+2. Deadly Shadows was a pretty good game, but glowing loot (yeah it’s been that long and i’m still bitter), dumb AI opponents, somewhat half arsed plot and cramped levels split by a loading divide relegated it squarely into 3rd place for a lot of people. At least you can mod out the loot glow now.

      • mckertis says:

        Not to mention the whole blue-ish color scheme and the ending. SUNRISE???? In THE City ??? What madness is this ? First two games were a dark fantasy, the third one was a big jump towards the regular kind. Much like Diablo 1,2, and 3, now that i think about it.

        The whole “real body” thing also made life more difficult, since the collision detection was actually reflecting your feet, and you could simply turn around on a tight ledge and be surprised when that made you fall down all of a sudden.

        “dumb AI opponents”
        I loved the moment i had at the very start of the first level, where you can startle a guard and hide behind the large crate, and the guard says “it’s the box, its ALWAYS the box”, whilst going to check behind the crate i was hiding against. Marvelous.

      • PoLLeNSKi says:

        Third one doesn’t compare to the first two imo… lots of reasons really, sure it was nice to play a ‘Thief’ game with slightly shinier gfx, but the various problems just annoy me if I try and play through it again.

      • mikmanner says:

        Thief 3 did have some brilliant level design and world building, it easily trumps the first game which had quite a few duff levels. I think DS tried to make a whole game out of the T2 level ‘Life of the Party’ which was such a magnificent, huge level.

        The highs in DS are really worth it, The Overlook Manor, The Cradle, that ghost ship, when the hub world becomes hostile, the statues, the pagan district… Like I say the world building was great.

        What it lacked was the right tone for the world, it didn’t have that same edge which T2 had, those freaky automatons and the corruption of the city.

    • Ridnarhtim says:

      Maybe not the only one, but I thought it was a MASSIVE letdown. In fact, I played it once on release, and have felt no desire to play it again since, while I’ve now completed the first two maybe a dozen time. It may not have been a dreadful game, but certainly not worthy to follow TDP and TMA.

    • oceanclub says:

      Nope; I think it’s the one that captures the atmosphere of The City the best. The graphics and atmosphere, all blue-dark nights and flickering torches, still hold up very well today, especially with the unofficial hi-res pack available (I’m currently replaying it) as does, most importantly, the game play. Things that were wildly controversial on release –3rd person view! (WHich er, is optional and you hardly ever use and which is actually handy sometimes) Climbing gloves!) seem unimportant now.

      I’d started to play Thief Gold but unfortunately whatever mods/updated I install borked some of the graphics. I’m hoping that this hi-res update is released before I next try:

      link to


  13. woodsey says:

    Whilst this is aggravating, it’s at least a more comforting explanation for the case of the curious, half-done trailer in the winter time than the idea that it’s in some sort of development hell.

    Although if they’ve been tinkering with it for four years and they’re now going to try and retrofit it onto the new consoles, there may be trouble ahead.

  14. Xardas Kane says:

    I don’t care. I really just don’t care. I’ve waited for this for far too long to be upset by yet another delay. Quite frankly as long as I know that this game is indeed coming and they treat it the way they did Deus Ex, I’m just fiiiiiine. I waited for 11 years to get a proper Deus Ex sequel, I can wait some more for this one. Take your time. Do it RIGHT.

    And reboot Legacy of Kain. Please? With cherry on the top? What happened to that SR remake anyways…

  15. JiminyJickers says:

    Aah balls.

    Oh well, I guess I never actually finished any of the previous ones, even though I played them all. Time to do that methinks.

  16. mckertis says:

    Anyone thinks it will have outsourced boss fights ?

  17. Sinkytown says:


    • LionsPhil says:


      • Xardas Kane says:

        Why? HR is a great game, as long as he doesn’t say IW is the best, I’m fine.

        • kud13 says:

          it’s a good game. but then there are boss fights. and clearly outlined “sneaky routes”
          and really bad physics.

          and 3rd person takedowns. and cover-based stealth (which is thankfully unnecessary)

          so no, it’s not, “the best”

          • Tyrone Slothrop. says:

            As a counter-point, the boss-fights were an exceptionally small part of the game and could be avoided just by levelling the typhoon augmentation. The ‘sneaky routes’ weren’t really just confined to that, it’s amazing after now four playthroughs to realise how -dense- even ostensibly ‘open’ or direct areas are in terms of design and player movement, just the position of a crate or lines-of-sight betray a lot more thought than you’re giving credit for. The physics were fine though the animation in places was poor, especially in reaction to projectiles (a retrospective on the development reveals the lead animator left during development leading to issues).

            The third-person takedowns are wonderfully satisfying and cover-based stealth is not inherently bad, indeed it was excellently handled in HR. So yes, you cannot say it’s not the best because it’s subjective and it’s certainly a legitimate opinion, indeed to employ the same rhetorical tact, the inventory system, music, peerless art direction, attention-to-detail, balance, side-quests, environmental storytelling and polish mean it’s the ‘best’ or the horrendous balance, voice-acting, rushed final act, A.I. issues galore and a torrent of other issues mean that ‘so no, the original is not ‘the best”.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            I actually do agree that the original is better, but your reasoning is laughable. Stealth routes are no more or less outlined than before, if you are talking about the yellow lining – it can be turned off. 3rd person takedowns, what exactly is wrong with that? Cover-based stealth that’s optional? What the hell is wrong with that? Bad physics? As opposed to the physics in DE1? What about the fantastic AI in that game, eh? Boss fights? There are 4 of them, hardly take that much time now, do they?

            The game is expertly crafted and oozes Deus Ex goodness out of each and every nuke and cranny, the attention to detail and craftsmanship
            this game exhibits is astounding.

            Still, I do believe DE1 is better, but for all the different reasons. A whole essay can be written about what the game does right and what wrong, and indeed it has been written, so I’ll just link it here: link to

          • Marik Bentusi says:

            Wouldn’t exactly call it “avoiding” if you’re relying on an overpowered mechanic to make boss fights piss-easy. Even the “avoid” route should provide a boss-level of challenge. But I get what you mean, you can skip to the better bits fairly quickly if you plan ahead.

            I wouldn’t agree on the cover-based stealth tho, it made half the wallhack augmentation useless because it enabled you to look around corners and above and beyond cover anyway. I think the game would’ve been better with Crysis 2-style covershooting with is pretty intuitive and only active if you really want to crouch against something. Also in DXHR you frequently get spotted if you’re just crouching next to a bit of cover, but once you hit the “cover” button you’re suddenly invisible to the enemy. Incidentally a bit like wall-hugging in Thief 3 which was hilarious.

            Personally my biggest problem with the game is end-story wise. Not the ending tron, but its contents. We can either trash all our progress and basically support the Illuminati (that are already winning) by apathy, or we can lie for a money-greedy douchebag (Sarif), lie for a power-greedy douchebag (Taggert) or lie for a revenge-greedy douchebag (Darrow), because if anything the game showed Jensen that there’s plenty of douchebags with and without augs on this planet. The AI that ironically has more human heart than all three douchebags combined and selflessly risks her neck for a stranger just because she’s impressed by his love-driven heroic selfless quest, and that’s also way more human and advanced than the Deus Ex AIs, surprisingly stays in the background the entire time (in this genre you’d think artificial intelligence is a BIG FUCKING DEAL), the reunion with Megan Reed was almost an emotional flatline (the entire game Jensen was so focused on getting her back and then that little closure to the theme), and afterwards she’s confirmed to be yet another douchebag.
            So in the end you can only support douchebags and the person that comes closes to the “good” alignment in the setting is completely stepped over. I’d like my game endings to feel a bit more satisfying.

            But hey, the artstyle is beautiful, the gameplay is competent and the multipathing works.

          • Xardas Kane says:

            That’s a fully legitimate reason not to like the game as much as the original, absolutely. But I still don’t see why the opinions of those who weren’t bothered by the (admittedly) unsatisfying conclusion should be dismissed.

          • Xocrates says:

            @Marik Bentusi: How are the endings any worse than the ones in the first game? Heck, in that game the “good” options were about as evil, if not more so, as the bad ones.

          • kud13 says:

            I may be a bit hung up on this, but i’ve once had to spend about 40 minutes in HR throwing boxes on an overpass so that I can stack them and against a ladder and then hop up with a small box in my hand so that I could throw it up the ladder into the next room, where i could use it to get into a vent to pick up a datacube.

            this annoyed me immensely, due to the fact that nearly every time I approaced my carefully stacked boxes with a small box in my hands, the whole thing would totter off the overpass making me start again.

            And I’m not comparing the physics with the original. I’m comparing them with IW, since physics was one of the few things IW got right.

            Re: takedowns: you thought they were satisfying. I felt they were pretty immersion-breaking (though not fatally so, as they worked in Bloodlines. Still, i’d have preferred an indication of vulnerability a la Bloodlines to the console-legacy “Press the button to do X” prompts).

            Re: stealth: as others have said, third-person cover diminishes the difficulty of stealth. being able to see around corners is basically cheating, and don’t get me started on the radar…(though still not as blatant as Alpha Protocol’s stealth powers, those made sneaking perma-easy mode). to continue about stealth and bossfights–the bossfights devalued the idea of making a sneaky non-violent character by forcing you to be violent. given the legacy of DX titles, it was annoying.

            RE: ending. I felt it was a very faithful homage to the ending of IW, without the burden of having to kill all faction leaders otherwise. I had no problems with the “choose a button for ending,” and I appreciated the nod.

            Also, to be fair, in places the level design was simply fantastic, and hopping around the rooftops of Yuzhao district with my ILS was the most fun i’ve had gaming in 2011, so there’s that.

  18. GameCat says:

    At least we will have Dishonored in couple of months, which will be very like Thief in terms of gameplay.

  19. beema says:

    Hooray for consoles holding back development!

    • Xardas Kane says:

      Uhuh. I bet you would have sung a different song had it been released for this gen, something about graphics being bad because of consoles. Now they won’t be, yet you whine for a whole different reason. Next get consoles will probably be coming next Christmas, while Thief 4 hasn’t even been publicly shown, which means there is virtually no way this game would be ready for this Christmas or early 2013, in other words – at the earliest it would be available just around the time next gen kicks in. So basically whatever’s holding it back, don’t blame the consoles, m’kay?

      • fatchap says:

        You have made some good points about consoles vs PC development but I think this really is the biggest issue. The hardware cycle for consoles is incredibly long and so we end up with a slowdown in development and releases while people hold off and wait for the next gen to be released. This has parallels in the mobile phone industry where purchases of the iphone 4 are dropping because people are waiting for the iphone 5.

        For PCs the hardware cycle is pretty much non-existent now because there is such a range of hardware out there.

        If this was being developed for the PC then this artificial barrier of the console release date would not exist and once the game was developed it could be released, since the return on investment for development does not start until release there is a motivation on their part to get selling as soon as possible.

        Obviously there are marketing considerations for releases still but they are less tied to Christmas as a gift giving event than the console devices as they have a much lower sales cost and so can go for things like labour day, thanksgiving or other colonial festivities to get their initial spike in sales upon release.

        • Xardas Kane says:

          Normally I would do nothing but nod in agreement, but look at the headline – next gen. I can hardly imagine a Thief 4 that can fully utilize what next gen consoles can do if rumours are any indication of what’s to come. And considering a legit Durango dev kit has been leaked, I think those rumours are rather legit. I simply see no way Thief 4 would be hurt by getting ported to consoles.

  20. C418 says:

    Does that mean we’ll see loading zones again? Because boy oh boy, do I love those!

  21. sparks50 says:

    Don’t you mean THI4F?

    • Vorphalack says:

      I’m going to keep pronouncing that as Thiefourf until someone who can make it stop gets the hint.

  22. deathchuckles says:

    Judging by the article picture, I figure Thief 4 will be out sometime around April 44th, 2044.

  23. fish99 says:

    There’s only 2 Thief games.

  24. Iskariot says:

    Why not just release it for PC and for the new generation (but already outdated) consoles as soon as they are released. The PC is miles ahead of the next gen consoles anyway.

    • MajorManiac says:


    • Xardas Kane says:

      Because it’s obviously not ready. We haven’t seen a single screenshot from it, do you think it would reach golden status for a late 2012 or early 2013 release? I don’t. Next gen in the meantime is coming next Christmas, which is about as early as any release date the game can get. I really don’t think they are delaying it at all.

  25. The Greatness says:

    Deus Ex 3? What was the second?

  26. Muzman says:

    To re-iterate my usual: It better not have Third Person, it better not have Spinny Camera ‘Take Down’ bollocks, and they better not have been under the impression DX:HR had good stealth, despite what reviewers said

  27. noodlecake says:

    Nooooooooooo!! Graphics can’t move on from where they are now. I’m an art student! I’ll never have the money to upgrade my graphics card. If there is some kind of huge leap in gaming graphics then my Radeon 6950 will become redundant.

  28. oceanclub says:

    It’s time that I just got to “The Shalebridge Cradle” in T:DS last night. Had to quit due to the nervous tension of attempting to play it at 2am. (OHGODWHATISTHATSHAKINGSOUND?)