The Suite Science: Paul Weir Talks Generative Music

This is the latest in the series of articles about the art technology of games, in collaboration with the particularly handsome Dead End Thrills.

When Paul Weir gave a talk at GDC 2011 about GRAMPS, the generative audio system he designed for Eidos Montreal’s Thief, the games press took notice. Not so much of the contents, though, or indeed the subject, just Thief. Here, finally, was a chance to get something on this oh so secretive game. Maybe, while prattling on about ‘sounds’ and stuff, he’d toss them a headline or two, get ’em some clicks. Suspecting as much, Weir recommended to his audience that anyone just there for Thief nooz should probably leave the room. Some people did.

We can often seem deaf to game audio in the same way we’re blind to animation. Maybe it’s because the best examples of both are so natural and chameleonic that they blend into a game’s broader objectives. Maybe it has to be Halo ostentatious or Amon Tobin trendy just to prick up our ears; or make the screen flash pretty colours. Or maybe Brian Eno has to be involved, as we’ll come to in a minute.

Yet Weir’s work is fascinating, and goes some way beyond the more conventional fields of ‘horizontal re-sequencing’ (shuffling pre-recorded segments of music) and ‘vertical re-orchestration’ (more complex dynamic mixes). It blurs the line not just between games and the real world – much of his work at sound design agency Earcom is generative soundscapes for shops, banks and hotels – but between melodies and chaos. What’s more, it invites games to become more than the linear B-movies imported from outgoing consoles, delivering something worthy of its ambition. He is currently an audio director at Microsoft.

Who ya gonna call when confronted with a screenshot of Ghost Master? Richard Cobbett was my first thought.

DET: What’s the landscape of dynamic music like at the moment? What kinds of things are you working on?

Weir: One thing is a kind of dynamic stem mixing where effectively you’ve got all your tracks sitting there, and you bring things in and out as and when. That’s pretty common. It’s not generative but dynamic mixing, really. Audio middleware like Wwise can handle it so you can time-sync everything and say that at this point I’ll bring in the strings or add the melody – that’s kind of the ‘vertical’ element. The horizontal one, which has been used many times – I remember the Harry Potter games used to do it – is deciding which cue you’re next going to play, but like a jigsaw they all fit together. Yeah, it can work. It works particularly well in a linear game.

We’ve tried generative music before in a few titles; there was an MMORPG which got cancelled. I think multiplayer online games are just a perfect vehicle for generative music. There was a game I did years ago called Ghost Master that did a randomised music system similar to what I do for shops and building societies: lots of little components. The chords and melody and bass and percussion would have separate controls and would then be randomly shuffled, and that created the background bed. We never told anyone about that and no one seemed to pick up on the fact it never repeated. But then they didn’t turn the music off, either, so that was a success as far as I was concerned.

There’s a project I’m discussing now – again, it’s very early days – where I’d love to add a generative system. I’m slightly optimistic: as we go next-gen and everyone gets more interested in procedural worlds, it’s a natural fit. But the problem is you need composers who are very comfortable writing generative music and have the systems to do so. On both fronts it’s not easy.

To infinity! That’s how much better Spore’s prototypes are than Spore. You have to suspect its music, produced in collaboration with Brian Eno, went through a fair few of its own.

DET: People still think of Spore when talking about generative music in games.

Weir: Spore is interesting because it did as much damage as it did good. Their ambition was fantastic but unfortunately, from my understanding, they did spend a lot of time building the systems. They used Pure Data initially, and Pure Data’s not very game friendly. So they did spend a lot of resources rewriting it. While it’s got generative music in the game, by the time they got round to actually creating the content – with Brian Eno’s posh involvement – actually it wasn’t the most effective demonstration.

The most success – I won’t say ‘anyone’ because that sounds terrible – we’ve had has not been games but in the generative sound design we do for commercial spaces, which is very game-orientated but just not in a game. I’ve just sound designed the National Georgian Bank. I’ve been doing Harrods as an ongoing thing, and several shopping centres in the UK. Lots of banks, as it happens. That’s using the same creative approach as what we used in Thief – different technology but the same approach. They’ll often buy a little Linux machine from us which has all our handwritten code on it, and that will then generate a soundscape which is made for that particular brand. It could be interactive but it’s not, though with Tesco we did something which was interactive.

A company called The Sound Agency does this, and I do the work for them. There’s a guy there called Julian Treasure who’s worth Googling because he’s done lots of talks on the power of audio in relationship to brands, and to people’s wellbeing – he’s quite into that. And he’s done a lot of TED talks. Julian’s known as the guy who ‘does this’ while I make the content. I’m healthily sceptical about generative music, but I think that in the right situation it can be a perfect solution. Yeah, you want something that’s able to react in ways that you can define, that’s non-looping, that basically acts in an unobtrusive way that sets the right atmosphere. Which is obviously what we wanted for Thief.

But a lot of composers don’t like composing music that doesn’t get recognised. We still suffer from this idea that if you write a film-style score for a game then somehow it’s qualitatively better, rather than actually being appropriate. It’s something we fight against.

Lucasarts had algorithmically generated music in Ballblazer long before iMuse, giving the technique the arguably jazzier sounding name ‘riffology’. Stand back, ladies, I’m a riffologist.

DET: Is there an ecosystem problem? Games being loyal to more anthemic or cinematic music for marketing reasons, maybe?

Weir: I’m not sure it’s quite as bad as that. It’s true for large titles, and the comparison with film is quite apt: you have very little middle ground in film now. The fact there’s so much indie going on is fantastic. I work a lot with Hello Games who are the perfect example of a great indie outfit. It’s so much fun working with them, it’s just like in the old days. With them, they decide to do something and they do it. That’s very different from my day job at Microsoft.

Microsoft is full of supremely intelligent people doing excellent work, but clearly there are a lot of layers to go through, and the best time is when you can sneak something in. Get a producer to approve it and you’re like: done, that’s it, it’s in. That’s a recognised problem inside companies like Microsoft, but it’s a difficult one to change in any big corporation. There’s a lot of money involved, everyone has to have a say, and everyone has to be right.

DET: How long would you have to be in charge of a generative system to ensure that it worked for a game like Thief?

Weir: We got Thief’s up and running very quickly because I’ve done it before. We had a prototype running in about six weeks which a colleague of mine – a guy called Sandy White who is a gaming legend – helped build just in C. That kind of validated the apporach, and then we brought it back in-house to Eidos to finish off. Right from the beginning I was composing generatively for Thief.

DET: Can generative music become the standard? Should it?

Weir: I don’t think it’ll ever become the standard, it’ll always be esoteric. Although: what’s interesting in both the games field and with brands is that if you’d mentioned something like generative music when we started doing this ten years ago, they just wouldn’t get it. It was just ‘weird’. Now I can sit in a meeting with Volkswagen and they go, ‘Yeah, okay, that’s good.’ We don’t talk much about the technology. It was the same on the game projects. People get it, they understand the principle. There’s definitely a cultural shift in accepting it. It’ll never be mainstream and I don’t think it should be, but it goes hand-in-hand with what’s happening in film schools. Good film schools have become much more non-linear and textural – films like The Matrix started that. I just saw Gravity and that had a good score: very un-thematic, un-John Williams. Games have had a slight influence on that, but it’s also the influence of Japanese cinema which tends to be less structured.

Harrods’ Toy Kingdom features five of Weir’s algorithmic soundscapes, one for each of its themed zones. You’re thinking about the obvious parallels with videogames. I’m thinking of The Crystal Maze, as I do every evening.

DET: You once singled out Red Dead Redemption for featuring “great music, but it all had to be written in A minor at 130bpm”. What’s that all about?

Weir: It’s a great example of vertical mixing and it does work really well, but that’s an incredibly restrictive way of composing. I’m sure they had a really good reason to do it, but I’m not sure what the logic was; the entire score had to be the same key at the same tempo. It’s great music, don’t get me wrong, but maybe that indicates a lack of imagination on what’s technically possible.

You don’t see it that often. Normally it’s the same per level or per track or whatever, depending on what the game is. It’s stem mixing, but to do it the same across an entire game is a bit weird.

What I was trying to do on Thief was kind of tackle this slightly. In the generative music system we had, you could have one piece of music and, within the same tool, compose a second piece of music and transition between the two. You could say that ‘this’ one takes 30 seconds, and it might go minor at a middle point and become more sparse. All the values I had for controlling the music were exposed, like in a sequencer. What my ambition was, which of course we never realised, was that you could start a level with one piece of music and end it with a totally different piece of music, and you’d never know when the music had been changed.

DET: Has that never been done before?

Weir: I don’t think it has. Music’s been changed but it’s always different cues. Our system solved the technical problem but we didn’t quite solve the human problem.

DET: The direction the game’s taken?

Weir: Yeah.

[Before you ask, Weir does elaborate upon this but only off the record.]

DET: How much greater is the workload for generative music compared to more linear music?

Weir: I don’t think the workload is any different, it’s the focus that’s different. With conventional music you start writing and immediately hear your results. You build it block by block. In generative music you plan what you want to do, imagine how it’s going to be, try all the elements, then assemble the elements into the system, and then you hear it. So it’s a lot more front-loaded, but once you’ve done that and have a certain body of material, you end up with a lot more soundtrack for your money. But yeah, not all composers are comfortable with that because it’s not as immediate.

Before we even started a level on Thief, I would have a plan as to what music would go into that level. There were points where I was asking the level designers to change a level just to give me space to do what I wanted to do, which is absolutely the right way around to be doing it. I love mixing generative and linear music, in fact, I think that’s a really good combination.

Thief. Hmm.

DET: Is the plight of the musician trying to influence the rest of a dev team the same as that of many game story writers?

Weir: Like when designers decide to become writers? Yeah, you get that all the time. Its very true that on many projects you come in at the end and are told what to write and deliver some tracks and off you go. That’s suitable for a lot of projects, but some teams want a relationship with an audio person. They want you to tell them what to do. I’ve got to the point where I’ve helped to build so many systems that I can easily go to them and say: ‘Here’s an example. Here’s what I think your game should sound like, running live in a generative system. I can build this for you. It’ll take this amount of time but will give you these benefits.’ If you can sell that to them then generally they’ll be very supportive.

DET: Should there be more middleware for this sort of thing?

Weir: I don’t think so. I’ve seen companies try to make not exactly this, but music software for games. It’s never succeeded for various reasons. First of all, it’s not hard to build a system; it’s actually going to be cheaper for me to build a system than to license it. Someone tried to sell me a music system that works with Wwise, but I was like: ‘Well, we’ve already licensed Wwise and integrated that. I’ll then need to integrated your system into ours and into the game, and by the time I’ve done that I may as well have bloody written it myself.’

These systems aren’t hard to write, but whenever I see people do it, they write it for how they work. That’s kind of missing the point. Whereas something like Scaleform or Wwise or whatever, yes, it forces you to work in a certain way, but ultimately an audio engine’s an audio engine; you’re not getting it to help you with the creative tasks, you’re getting it just to be there and make your life easier. I absolutely believe it’s not about the technology. Technically what I do is really simple: just randomise a few files with a bit of logic. It’s much more about whether it’s appropriate for the game, and as a composer how I approach that. It’s just about getting the sound right.

The famous iMuse system showcased by Monkey Island 2, developed by Michael Land, was designed to convince players the music had anticipated their actions.

DET: Who are the real pioneers then?

Weir: Lucasarts were the guys really, they did extraordinary work in those early adventure games. Microsoft have tried it; a few years ago they had a program called Direct Music Producer which, you know, basically didn’t take off and got killed. That came out about the time of the first Xbox.

The problem with quite a lot of the attempts is balance: if you’ve got a properly generative system then you need to have inherent flexibility, but of course the more you have, the more chaotic it becomes – the less musical it becomes. So it’s enough flexibility for it to serve its purpose, but not so much that it defeats its purpose. That’s tricky.

DET: Should generative music at least be a greater presence in games?

Weir: I would love to see a major game have generative music at its heart in a way that really supports it. Of course that’s what we tried to do with Thief. It wasn’t about being clever, it wasn’t about giving the audience something different to hear, it was about supporting the game. I still have high hopes. I’m talking to some people about a project that generative music would be absolutely perfect for. Even at Microsoft I introduce it when it’s suitable. It’s unlikely to happen but I’ve got a wonderful idea about Xbox One and how we might be able to do something generative for that. We keep banging on that door.


  1. mezron says:

    Sadly, I think the only time I really notice the music in a game is right before I turn it down or off. A lot of games have great music but there seems to be a tendency to crank it up to 11 which is a huge turn off for me. The worst offenders for me are the Star Wars games.

    • CookPassBabtridge says:

      I find I am doing this more and more lately, particularly in shooters and since my hearing got worse. The music blocks out environmental sounds making it harder to know what enemies are doing and where they are. Sometimes the music just gives me a headache though, if its too heavy handed. Wargame Airland Battle has one theme I really like which goes all Lion King-ey in the middle. The rest is all kind of faux-Wagner. So now I prefer to blow up T-72’s without musical accompaniment.

      On the other hand, the fallout games I absolutely left it on. The wasteland music is fantastically atmospheric and sometimes I find myself craving the way that game made me feel the first time I played it.

      • LionsPhil says:

        I don’t know why people would turn on the radio in New Vegas when the atmospheric twangs you get otherwise add so much (barren) life to it. (And that’s despite liking a lot of the classic mid-20th-century country it uses.)

        And I’m sorry, if your game is Internet co-op, it doesn’t matter how awesome the music is—it’s getting turned off so I can hear other people on voice chat clearly.

        • hamburger_cheesedoodle says:

          Yeah, the FNV soundtrack is pretty great! I love that it actually changes based on your karma, too (about the only effect karma has in the game), and the evil karma soundtrack is eerie and incredibly mood-setting. I do really appreciate that they used tracks from Fallout 1 as well; Caverns and Brotherhood of Steel are both excellent, and fit the game so well that they’re probably better than the music that was composed for the new game anyway.

    • Kitsunin says:

      The music in most AAA-ish titles tends to be extremely blah, so it’s usually take it or leave it for me, if it’s a game I play a lot of, then I’ll usually turn it off and bring my own music in. With a lot of less mainstream titles that encourage repeated plays, roguelikes or CCGs and such, then I’ll usually be listening to a podcast in the background, with a few exceptions like Spelunky, which I like to get a little more immersed in. On the other hand, genres that involve extreme concentration (Shmups, difficult platformers) absolutely require fantastic music in order to be truly great.

  2. President Weasel says:

    Oh I say, excellent pun in the title.

  3. kwyjibo says:

    Can you tag Dead End Thrills articles with the tag Dead End Thrills?

  4. Geebs says:

    I don’t think producing Muzak for Harrods really gets you the right to criticise John Williams.

    • faelnor says:

      I don’t even make music and I take the right to criticise John Williams. Oh, the humanity!

      • Nick says:

        But why would you?

        • Jason Moyer says:

          Because he’s more of an arranger than a composer.

          • Geebs says:

            Being good at arranging the stuff you composed does not make you a better arranger than you are a composer.

        • Celuden says:

          Because in all truthfulness he’s a hack who literally stole every notable piece he ever made straight from Gustav Holst’s The Planets? I like his soundtracks as much as anybody, but that doesn’t mean he deserves any of the credit for it.

      • Geebs says:

        Good for you! However, you are as bad at detecting irony as you are good at self-affirmation :-(

    • Duncan Harris says:

      Pretty sure he wasn’t criticising anyone. As someone who describes his own work as esoteric, wasn’t he just citing Williams as ‘the establishment’?

      • Emeraude says:

        Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s not so much John Williams per see as what he’s sadly come to represent as far as film-scoring is concerned.

        I perfectly understand the sentiment too. If there’s one thing I’d like to, well, not die, but be restricted to were it fits only, it’s orchestral/movie-esque scores in video games.

        • Geebs says:

          Williams only represents the establishment through having been very successful on his own merits; which is why critiques of his work inevitably smack of sour grapes or sheer contrarianism. Similarly he’s a very odd choice to hold up as an example of a score being inappropriate given that the entire basis for his success and continued employment was precisely his ability to be appropriate!

          Also, this guy can frankly suck it for bitching about Eno being “posh” when he’s an utter corporate sellout :p

          • Emeraude says:

            Williams only represents the establishment through having been very successful on his own merits

            Well, yes, being successful is kinda of a prerequisite for being part of the establishment. In fact I can’t think of many artists that were both critically and commercially successful and not re-appropriated as part of the establishment.
            The fact that one made it on his/her own merit is relatively irrelevant when all another is arguing is that one *is* part of the establishment.

            which is why critiques of his work inevitably smack of sour grapes or sheer contrarianism.

            There is such a thing as being too successful and emulated, and eventually representative of a whole particular set of forms.
            And though I *do* love John Williams’ body of work for the most part (though I do remember earring his arrangement for the Legend of Zelda theme and thinking he sounded like his own parody), I do think he’s become perfectly archetypal of a form of movie-destined orchestral music that has been so abused as to be left without much substance.

            Similarly he’s a very odd choice to hold up as an example of a score being inappropriate given that the entire basis for his success and continued employment was precisely his ability to be appropriate!

            He was very appropriate in/for the medium that made uses off his skills. The people aping his style for another medium altogether aren’t for the vast majority. And that’s not because they’re aren’t competent/talented, but because the tools being used are for the most part inappropriate.

          • Celuden says:

            I’m sorry, but what part of essentially copying an entire symphony from over fifty years prior counts as “being successful on your own merit”?

  5. Andy`` says:

    They used pure data initially, and pure data’s not very game friendly.

    Did you mean “pure data” or “Pure Data” as in link to ?

    Not grammar picking, just I suspect the latter so the clarification would be neat.

  6. jaypettitt says:

    So do Weir’s wonderful generative noisesounds live on in Thief, or have they been faded out in favour of a more traditional orchestral score?

    • Llewyn says:

      The inference I’d draw from the hints in the article is that it’s still there but the gameplay is so linear as to render it irrelevant.

    • zain3000 says:

      I certainly would love some insight into that off-the-record conversation. Hopefully more details vis a vis the goings-on behind the scenes will be revealed in the months following the game’s release.

    • Snargelfargen says:

      Eidos were still tweaking levels this summer. I’m not sure when Weir left for Microsoft but he gave the talk about Thief way back in 2011. There’s been pretty big turnover in Eidos Montral since then and the game has changed quite a bit. A lot of his work has probably been tossed or lost.

      Also procedural music that changes songs imperceptibly doesn’t jive well with cutscenes and scripted escape sequences :-(

      • KenTWOu says:

        Also procedural music that changes songs imperceptibly doesn’t jive well with cutscenes and scripted escape sequences…

        I love when people like to think that somebody’s leaving a project because of reasons they didn’t like in it. So if Paul Weir has left Eidos Montreal it was because of small levels, cut-scenes, scripted sequences, XP and QTEs. That’s for sure! Because Paul Weir is so hardcore, he knows Thief 1 and 2 by heart and right now he is playing TDM obviously. That’s so naive IMO. He is a talented musician and that’s all. And procedural music does work well with cutscenes and scripted escape sequences.

        • Snargelfargen says:

          What are you even going on about? The guy probably left for better opportunities or maybe his contract was over.

          • KenTWOu says:

            The guy probably left for better opportunities…

            That’s my point!

    • Duncan Harris says:

      Paul’s in pretty much the same position as the rest of us: such is the turmoil of the project – and I’m going by the same reports you are here – that unless you’re right there with them now, you’ll be watching the game evolve through its trailers and PR. I don’t think it’s any secret that they went chasing the Assassin’s Creed crowd at one point, and it’s hard to imagine generative music surviving that transition. If they did yet another U-turn then I guess the question is whether Paul’s expertise was sufficiently passed on to restore whatever systems were removed, if indeed they were. One thing i do know is that there are far too many exceptionally talented people on that team to make the game as bad as internet rubberneckers seem to want it to be.

  7. waltC says:

    What a great idea! Imagine an article about generative music that actually contained a brief sample of generative music that the reader could playback and take a listen to–or better yet, a trailer from Thief that contained a taste of the article’s subject matter. Or would that have been asking generative music to actually generate something logically coherent, thereby killing the “generative” formulation? I know it’s fun to talk about generative music in all sorts of flamboyant, wonderfully expressive ways, but wouldn’t it be even more fun for the reader to be able to *listen to a bit of it* to better relate to exactly what’s being discussed?

    In terms of game sound, I’ll have to confess that without a sample of some kind to refresh my memory of the topic discussed here, I’m far more excited about this at the moment:

    link to

    *Designed to be listened to with ordinary stereo headphones

    • Llewyn says:

      I’m not sure that would help much. A single sample of generative music is merely a sample of music; there’s nothing to distinguish it from a piece of specifically composed music. Where generative music might be different (and this depends on application) is in producing contextual results – for example a level might begin with a certain piece of music playing which responds to your actions, becoming lighter in tone as you help friendly NPCs or more menacing and brooding if you kill guards, such that by the end of the level it appears to be a fundamentally different piece without there having been a point where one piece faded into the next.

      Yes, multiple examples could be helpful but a) that’s not so simple to set up in the scope of an article and b) if it’s done well then what’s happening still shouldn’t be so immediately obvious.

    • Kitsunin says:

      Hm, that’s pretty cool, but it’s really not revolutionary in the way they are claiming (It’s especially not “4D”, and anyone who claims their thing is 4D should be shot). If they can get the type effect in that video to be easily replicable, that would be awesome. However, the idea of 3D psychoacoustics isn’t exactly new, and it’s not like nothing like that has been done before – though the effect in that video was pretty impressive compared to most of what we see.

      Also, Llewyn’s right about having an example of generative music.

    • one2fwee says:

      Hey look an Aureal A3d clone.
      It’s sad that Creative killed off audio like this and no one else bothered to pick up Aureal’s lead.

      Does this new thing do wave tracing? Or is it just HRTF (binaural audio)?
      You can kind of do HRTF with separate software anyway now – cmss 3d for creative, dolby headphone for ASUS and even if you have neither, there is some software that does it that i have forgotten the name of.

      Nothing does wavetracing though as far as i know (and you need a real A3D card to experience it as it only works in A3D 2.0 and above (3.0)).

      A3D emulation in other cards (e.g. creative) only does A3D 1.0, which is just the hrtf really. So not superly interesting.

      Interestingly, Thief 2 only supports A3D 1.0 so doesn’t do wave tracing and i don’t think Thief 1 / Gold supports A3D at all.
      I heard that Thief does wave tracing though so maybe they coded it manually in software – I guess I would have to ask some of the people working with the source code to find out but I don’t know where they “congregate”.

  8. hypercrisis says:

    I figured the reason the gaming media never takes notice of sound and animation was the lack of actual journalistic writers with any real expertise

  9. Sharlie Shaplin says:

    I have a hard time remembering music in most modern games. I suppose that is both good and bad, depending on what the composer was going for. Only the Mass Effect soundtrack has really stuck with me in recent years.

  10. kirby_freak says:

    I really enjoyed this, thanks for the article Duncan! I’m currently double majoring in Computer Science and Music Composition, and while I’ve thought a bit about randomly generated music, I never really considered it a career path… I’ll have to look into this sometime!

  11. qrter says:

    I always have thought Eric Brosius’ scores (and sound design) for the first three Thief games were exceptional – they sounded like nothing else, and really added to the eerie atmosphere of The City.

    Here’s an example from Thief: Deadly Shadowslink to

  12. Emeraude says:

    Really interesting read.
    Something I struggled with along with friends, around 15 years, when we were young and though we could totally make our awesome games.

    Would love to know in which respects Mr. Weir finds Pure Data not very game friendly. Could be interesting in its own rights.

  13. one2fwee says:

    This would have been the perfect article to mention System Shock’s brilliant dynamic music that changes and reacts to your situation.
    Particularly as Greg LoPiccolo also worked on Thief (a lot of the origin people went to LGS).

    But sadly nothing?!