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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    F... ancy calling the police?

    Is this an amazing news story? Just another day in America:

    https://theundefeated.com/features/l...int-by-police/


  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Is this an amazing news story? Just another day in America
    Its endemic, honestly, scarcely even a news story, but there are people who need to hear this, sadly most of them watch Fox instead of news.
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  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    I'm unclear on how "Fuck Tha Police" is the correct answer to this problem.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    I'm unclear on how "Fuck Tha Police" is the correct answer to this problem.
    It isn't, but it is cathartic, right up until Ice Cube expresses that he doesn't know if the the police officers searching him are "fags or what".

    Ah, rap music, is there anything you can't fuck up.
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  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Ah, rap music, is there anything you can't fuck up.
    I think it fucks up earlier than that line.

    NWA was part of a sub-genre of rap that popularizes the image of young black men as thugs, murderers, and thieves. In the story, the problem with officer Castile is that he assumes that what he thinks is a young black man is a thief, and probably violent.

    Now, granted, attempting to take a car out of someone's driveway while the homeowner was away was inappropriate and stupid, whether she purchased it or not, but the real problem was that Castile was operating entirely on the basis of emotion and fear, and wouldn't listen to Jameson once he confronted her. NWA did their level best to encourage exactly that kind of emotional reaction, particularly from police officers.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    NWA was part of a sub-genre of rap that popularizes the image of young black men as thugs, murderers, and thieves.
    They also refute this within their own songs, then go back on it within the same song, endlessly. They argue about being accused of being a criminal, then threaten to shoot someone.

    This is a far better song to choose in protest of the police, even if it resorts to thuggery before it's done, at least it has a good hook.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 15-07-2017 at 07:34 PM.
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  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    Now, granted, attempting to take a car out of someone's driveway while the homeowner was away was inappropriate and stupid, whether she purchased it or not, but the real problem was that Castile was operating entirely on the basis of emotion and fear, and wouldn't listen to Jameson once he confronted her. NWA did their level best to encourage exactly that kind of emotional reaction, particularly from police officers.
    1) Say I drove to a party and parked my car in someone's driveway--say a casual work acquaintance. Then got too wasted to drive and took the prudent action of getting a Lyft home. The next morning, I wake up and grab a Lyft back to the party location to get my car. I guarantee you I'm driving my car out of their driveway regardless of whether they're home or not. Jameson was the owner of the car. Confronting her verbally was perfectly legitimate. Pulling a gun on her was way, way ,way, way, way, way, way the fuck out of line. He should be fired. He was off duty, not in uniform. She had no obvious weapon, and was not presenting a danger. There's no way he should have pulled that gun. If I had done that, I'd be charged with assault. A police officer does it and he's acting "lawful and proper." Fuck. The. Police. When police are treated exactly the same as you and me under the law, they'll get my respect. When the Philando Castiles of the country get shot for no reason and the cops walk because they're apparently allowed to murder people with impunity, fuck them and their jackboot thuggery all the way to hell. And if someone is a good cop who doesn't want to get lumped in with the bad, maybe they should reconsider the thin blue line. With that bullshit code keeping them on the inside and real people on the outside, who can tell them apart?

    2) There are a whole host of cultural assumptions rattling around NWA's music. It's far too reductive to just say it "popularizes the image of young black men as thugs, murderers, and thieves" as if American culture itself wasn't complicit in this for literally hundreds of years before NWA. This final entry in a back-and-forth discussion between Jonathan Chait and Ta-Nehisi Coates is illuminating in this regard.

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    That was a good read, thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    2) There are a whole host of cultural assumptions rattling around NWA's music.
    NWA might be the artists, but the product was manufactured by the music industry, and dissent sells to the disenfranchised.

    Cultural artifacts quickly become distasteful unless completely saccharine, but they still matter.
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  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    The next morning, I wake up and grab a Lyft back to the party location to get my car. I guarantee you I'm driving my car out of their driveway regardless of whether they're home or not.
    Inappropriate analogy. You're not going to start by monkeying with the license plates, which is suspicious behavior no matter what Jameson thinks, and it's an unknown person screwing around with a known car.

    This wasn't a car left behind. This was the transfer of ownership of a car. There's a very definite etiquette to that. Regardless of the neighbors, it is not OK to drive away with a car without talking to the owner who parked the car there.

    Jameson does bear some responsibility for putting herself in that position, though she doesn't acknowledge that. The real issue wasn't that Castile confronted her, it's how it was handled after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Pulling a gun on her was way, way ,way, way, way, way, way the fuck out of line.
    Can't agree.

    Let's look at it from the point of view of a police officer. An apparent car thief is messing around with the neighbor's car. Odds are significant that the thief is armed. Not 100%, but certainly better than, say, 10%. So you confront the thief verbally, and -bang- you're dead. Police draw weapons when approaching an apparent crime in process all the time, because it's often the only sensible thing to do.

    Your argument would hold water if, for example, Jameson had just been knocking on the neighbor's door or something. But that's not what she was doing, she was doing something that definitely looked like a crime, regardless of her race.

    No, the breakdown wasn't when Castile confronted her with a pistol, scary as that was. The breakdown was Castile, and later the deputy, ignoring what she had to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    If I had done that, I'd be charged with assault. A police officer does it and he's acting "lawful and proper."
    That's exactly the difference. He was a police office, and you aren't. Police do things all the time that are unlawful for civilians. Like, y'know, arresting people. Because they are police and that's the job. Civilians arresting people aren't police officers, they're vigilantes.

    Police are allowed to point weapons at people that they reasonably suspect may be armed and dangerous, and for good reason. They deal with dangerous situations all the time. You don't.

    There are lots of examples of things that'd it'd be extremely silly to apply your standard of "treat police like civilians." For example, they exceed the speed limit when they're called to a scene, or just when pursuing a traffic violator. It'd be ridiculous to insist that this is "criminal" because it's criminal when a civilian does it, and not when a police officer does it. When there are two different standards for behavior, it's for good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    if American culture itself wasn't complicit in this for literally hundreds of years before NWA.
    That doesn't excuse their behavior the tiniest bit. I'm astonished that you'd take this line of reasoning, that discrimination makes it OK to deliberately reinforce the worst stereotypes, or advocate violence.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Look, here's the problem. We have a whole theory of policing that says the best way to control people is to point a gun at them. It puts the safety of the officer at the forefront, at the expense of public safety. I'm sure what the off-duty, un-uniformed officer did was legal, but it was sanctioned thuggery. When a police officer has a gun pointed at you, you are literally millimeters from death. And the only thing keeping that officer from shooting you is her or his goodwill. The law does not punish officers for killing people. I'll say that again: the law does not protect you and I from murder by a police officer. When they point a gun at someone, they have unrestrained power of life or death over them. They are thugs. In western European countries, it is common for police in total to fire less than 10 rounds of ammunition per year. Have a glance at this table. We, in America, do policing wrongly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    That doesn't excuse their behavior the tiniest bit. I'm astonished that you'd take this line of reasoning, that discrimination makes it OK to deliberately reinforce the worst stereotypes, or advocate violence.
    Did you read the article I linked? Your response is a non sequitur.

  11. #11
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    All i know is that if i lived in America, the last thing i'd ever do is call the police. I mean i can have weapons at home to protect myself and my family, so i'd go that route and keep the police the hell away.

    'uninformed' guys with itchy trigger fingers and the usual backstory that paints everyone a criminal, supposed to 'protect' me? I'm not a gambling man in that game! So yeah i agree with Matt completely, America does policing badly, and the stats don't lie.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Have a glance at this table. We, in America, do policing wrongly.
    Wait, that can't be right, no survived being shot by police in America? No one? What the fuck are they doing? The Mozambique Drill?

    Ah, hyphen means no stats? That makes more sense.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 16-07-2017 at 02:59 PM.
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...e-damond-video

    More cops shooting and killing people because... no reason. They're scared. And apparently cops are scared all the time, so they can shoot you anytime they want. 10 to 1 Noor escapes charges completely.

  14. #14
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    He's called mohamed noor and he shot a white woman. If it's gonna be different for any cop...
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  15. #15
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    That is a terrible story, just tragic with a capitol 'T', but reinforces my opinion that if i lived in the USA, the last thing i'd do is call the police. I can have a gun and use lethal force to protect my home, so would prefer to do that than run the gauntlet with contacting the police that might shoot me or my family by mistake etc.

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    I can have a gun and use lethal force to protect my home, so would prefer to do that than run the gauntlet with contacting the police that might shoot me or my family by mistake etc.
    I think this is going a bit too much on the other side. I'm not sure if cowboys shooting anyone looking suspicious around them is preferable to the police, even a badly trained and biased police.
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  17. #17
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    At this point I'm not sure how they're distinct. Except that a cowboy going around shooting anyone looking suspicious would get arrested.
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  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    At this point I'm not sure how they're distinct. Except that a cowboy going around shooting anyone looking suspicious would get arrested.
    Right, because that's what the police do. Go around randomly shooting anyone looking suspicious. ::rolleyes::

    Yes, there are some officers who are shooting innocent people. No question that this particular case, the shooting in Minneapolis is inexcusable. But painting all police that way because of some incidents is exactly like the "some Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Muslims are terrorists" rhetoric that conservatives are bandying about. Jebus. Can we tone down the rhetoric just a little?

    Yes, the US has an armed police problem - though almost certainly it's largely because we also have an armed criminal problem. It's not just that criminals are far more likely to be armed, it's that the police are more likely to believe a criminal to be armed (for good reason), and that's where the overreaction comes from.

    The US is not the worst country in the world for police killings, on a per capita basis. It's just that way when you compare it to rich countries like the UK, Germany, and France. South Africa has double the per-capita deaths caused by police of the US. Brazil has triple the per-capita deaths (2,212 deaths in Brazil in 2013, ~1,140 in the US, and a population 64% that of the US).

    Do we need to do something about the problem? Absolutely. But painting all police as random murders, or the "fuck the police" sentiment expressed in this thread earlier, is not helping.

    Yes, some of them are petty little tyrants, and we see news stories about the worst segments of the police. We need to do something about the Joe Arpaios of the world, but most of 'em are just people. When talking about what they should and should not do, we need to be aware of what the job entails, and the times it is dangerous, and what rules that seem "reasonable" to an uninformed outsider are actually a good way to get them killed.

    For example, I've been pulled over for traffic infractions a few times. In the course of one of those stops, I learned that they do not like it if you look back at them, or have your hands anyplace but the wheel. Which sounds unreasonable, but the fact is a certain number of cops get shot and killed in routine traffic stops. Most of them don't expect violence in any given traffic stop, but they do know it can happen, even if you don't.

  19. #19
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    I'll tone down the rhetoric when one of them gets arrested and charged and prosecuted. Whilst they circle the wagons, they are endorsing the behaviour and are collectively responsible for it.
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  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    I'll tone down the rhetoric when one of them gets arrested and charged and prosecuted. Whilst they circle the wagons, they are endorsing the behaviour and are collectively responsible for it.
    This. Gun violence is absolutely a problem in the United States, police officers included. What is especially problematic about police though is that they are immune from the law. They can shoot to kill and almost always get away with it, even when it is absolutely clear that the shooting was unjustified. Not even a manslaughter charge for Philando Castile's murderer? What about the cop who rolled up on 12 year old Tamir Rice and shot him dead within 2 seconds of arriving at the scene? No charge. Not even manslaughter. All a cop has to do is say that they were scared, and they get away with it. And with a pervasive us-vs-them police culture that feels victimized by an imaginary "war on cops", they're always scared.

    I wonder: if court settlements for unjustified police shootings had to come, collectively, out of cops' salaries, would that finally break the thin blue line?

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