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Thread: Women women women women.... ugh
10-04-2013, 06:45 AM #21
10-04-2013, 06:59 AM #22
Voting with your wallet is very relevant, demanding a creative work to be changed however isn't.
A prime example from one of my favorite story driven games from last year, Game of Thrones RPG:
No female character to play? Shame on you!
by Bamzen » 02 April 2012, 00:15
I've looked everywhere, now.. As far as I can see, there is no female character for the girls to play.
So that pretty much ruin it for my girlfriend 100%. If this was a serious game, a serious RPG, you would have taken the time to make it possible for a female to play as a female character. Oh yeah, there is alot of girls out there that watch Game of Thrones.
And please, don't dear use The Witcher 1 or 2 game as an example as The Witcher is a KEY character of the story, even in the book. While in this game, the two characters you can chose from is NOT any KEY characters in any story from the Game of Thrones, they are just made up for the gameplay experience, so should had made up a female character aswell that the girls could play as.
So if you was serious about making a good Game of Thrones RPG, you would had made it possible for ALL fans to enjoy the game, not just for guys or girls that like to roleplay guys, for this is.. a roleplaying game, or am I wrong? So shame on you for not having a female character. Stigma going on or just cutting spending on the game because they don't really care about anything then selling a product that they likely think mostly only guys would go into buying.
Shame on you!
Really, shame on you!
And I want to quote Jelly here;
Jelly wrote:two characters we really thought of. They have their own background, their own specialities, their affiliation, and everything is in accordance with Georges Martin story (and been approved by George Martin).
So if you are a real fan of RPG, you should like it. At least, it's what we hope.
'Yes, I'm a girl and I love RPGs, but not when I can't play out as a female character, do you understand that?'
Could you not care about creating ONE female character with own background, own specialities, affiliation?
I mean, are you going to say that girls in Game of Thrones don't fight or something?
Do you know who Daenerys is?
Or Arya for that matter?
10-04-2013, 07:32 AM #23
10-04-2013, 07:36 AM #24
You guys... are too much. I don't even know if you guys are serious or trolling each other anymore.
10-04-2013, 07:47 AM #25
Too subtle? Maybe if I put my chainmail thong on.
10-04-2013, 08:14 AM #26
10-04-2013, 08:31 AM #27
These tropes and shallow character designs/stereotypes continue you to sell, and even if you call it shit art as well as I do, the market supports it.
Your "corporate leash-holder" argument just shows that more devs are willing to sell out, or fall under a publishers banner, than cut costs or go indie, it has nothing to do with sexism, it has to do with corporatism and capitalism.
10-04-2013, 08:37 AM #28
This obviously rules out television, books, movies, music, newspapers and magazines, radio as every single one of these has an abundance of crap that would be claimable to be an insult to intelligence the same way video games could. What one have I missed?
And What., I generally agree with you that women might play games as female avatars and like that they're "perfect" the same way men do. I can think of at least a handful of girls I know who all bought and loved Bayonetta for that very reason. Both my sisters really liked playing Tomb Raider games and liked Lara Croft.
I agree with you, but this is about the fourth or fifth topic on this or that has spun off into this debate and it's one that I'm pretty tired of.
10-04-2013, 08:51 AM #29
I'd say get a real job, but we all know hippies are to jobs as slugs are to table salt.
10-04-2013, 09:01 AM #30
10-04-2013, 09:12 AM #31
Women, women, women, women, women... BATMAN/WOMAN!!!!!!!
10-04-2013, 12:05 PM #32
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Hey, thanks for this thoughtful response.
That said, though, my aim was chiefly to come up with character designs and behaviors that prioritized absurd sexuality over hero fantasy or characterization. Like you said, men and women aren't necessarily perfect opposites when it comes to sex fantasy, but the purpose of my experiment is less "what would straight women want to see?" and more "what do straight men* probably not want to see?," since I think that's moreso the problem.
On balance, I don't get why guys like Angelina Jolie. Maybe I'm just the odd one out here.
Not that you can please everyone, of course. In MMOs, some women** complain about the ugly "realistic" armor, because they want to feel sexy in a plate bikini. So, it's nice to have options. There just tend not to be enough options.
It's not always one or the other, obviously. Jesus_Phish brings up Lara Croft, who from what I've gathered appealed to a lot of women when she came out - in spite of, for example, the fact that she's lying naked on the beach for some stupid reason on my Last Revelation sleeve. They don't give that a pass, necessarily, but it isn't the only important thing.
That's the point, really. You or I or Activision can assume things, but bringing people into the discussion to see what they actually want, what they actively don't want, and what they don't care about is the key.
* Frivolous side question: do gay dudes like the bat-thong?
** At least some of those women are actually women.
Last edited by Mentalepsy; 10-04-2013 at 12:12 PM.
10-04-2013, 12:31 PM #33
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
The impossibly-proportioned woman is a male fantasy of the ideal woman he wants to shag.
The impossibly-proportioned man is a male fantasy of the ideal man he wants to be.
Now, generally, it just so happens that ideal man a woman wants to shag tends to look a lot more like the ideal man a man wants to be. Because generally women want men to big, strong and powerful. Whereas generally men want women to be slutty, hot and submissive.
But it turns out what women want actually varies a lot more. The female fantasy of the ideal man seems to be a lot more divergent than the male one. And when you try and cast the main (male) character as anything other than the big muscley barbarian type, you get a problem. You can get away with the slightly more sensibly proportioned wise-cracking rogue type, because that's another male and female ideal for male-ness.
But go any further... well did you see the controversy when a male character tried to flirt with your male PC in DA2? Someone mentioned Dante upthread, but did you see the controversy when the latest game turned him to less of the male ideal of maleness and sent him a bit Twilight, into the female ideal of maleness realms?
And that's just scratching the surface. I suggest if you have any close female friends, try asking them what their fantasies of the ideal man actually are. Then imagine playing those characters in a video game.
10-04-2013, 12:50 PM #34
10-04-2013, 01:18 PM #35
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
10-04-2013, 01:49 PM #36
10-04-2013, 02:53 PM #37
- Join Date
- May 2011
But if it helps:
The fantasy figures of men in games are designed to be idealistic males, strong, powerful, and capable. Something for men to aspire to/fantasise about being.
The fantasy figures of women in games are designed to be sexually appealing for males, under-dressed, vulnerable, and often incapable. Something for men to look at/fantasise about being with.
Let me underline, since apparently if you don't spell this out every time you have to fend off hordes of the worst sorts: neither is wrong. Neither shouldn't be in games. But all anyone is pointing out is that they're designed for men. And that they're increasingly tacky, tedious, and alienating to a huge group of potential players. (And let me ALSO add that no, I too do not identify with giant muscley war heroes, nor aspire to be one. However, I also have the perspicacity to recognise that when my avatars are invariably strong, powerful and successful, it's not sending me an equivalent message to "weak, sexual and in need of rescue.")
Can you see why it might be preferable to portray strong female characters without designing to be titillation for male players? To allow them a full suit of armour, that their male counterparts wear? To let them at least cover up their butt cheeks in the fields of war?
I think the best answer possible though, is ask women you know. Ask them what sort of character they'd prefer to play. (Please note I didn't say "woman". The answers will obviously be many and varied.)
10-04-2013, 03:42 PM #38
Maybe carry out a female gamer survey. That way we can get some answers as to what female gamers want, and how they want to be portrayed.
If anything conventions like like comic con cos-player demonstrate: -
People of either sex like to fantasize
10-04-2013, 03:45 PM #39
10-04-2013, 03:51 PM #40