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  1. #1
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    The Great All Encompassing Man Made Climate Change Thread

    I had been contributing most of the posts for the Climate Change thread over at the Qt3 forums over the last several years, but now i need to carry that tradition on here, and not seeing a main thread for this (over the last 9 pages of posts i checked) i decided to start this one.

    Usually i will post an article every day, or every few days depending on what climate change 'news' is around. The whole purpose of the original effort was to do it in an american forum, as most of the issues over climate change originate from the usa, and where most of the 'sceptical science' about climate change also comes from. I just feel it is the single biggest and most important issue the whole world is facing. So i completely agree with the majority scientific consensus on man made climate change.

    Just for interest this is the large thread from there:

    http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...imate-disaster

    which may not be around for a long while as they have migrated their forums to a software i can not get to function properly enough to carry on using, but a quick glance will show the kind of topics you can expect to see here in this thread.

    So here is the first link for this new thread, about a recently extinct mouse that lived on the Great Barrier Reef:

    'Devastated scientists too late to captive breed mammal lost to climate change':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...t-barrier-reef

    The Bramble Cay melomys has become more famous in extinction than it ever was in life. A mouse-like rodent, the melomys amazingly survived on a 3.6 hectare grass-covered cay (a low-lying island in a coral reef) in Australia’s Great Barrier Reef like a ratty Robinson Crusoe for thousands of years. There, it thrived off just a few plant species until human-caused climate change—in the form of rising sea levels and increasing inundations of sea water on the low-lying island—wiped it off the planet.

    But, while the extinction has been reported widely, articles have missed an important point: the scientists who uncovered the rodent’s fate had planned to capture individuals and bring them back to the Australian mainland to start a captive breeding programme. They were just too late.

    “My colleagues and I were devastated,” Ian Gynther, a Senior Conservation Officer in Queensland’s Department of Environment and Heritage Protection who led the failed rescue mission, said.

    “As each day of our comprehensive survey passed without revealing any trace of the animal, we became more and more depressed,” he added.

    Short surveys in both 2011 and early 2014 failed to find a single Bramble Cay melomys (Melomys rubicola), but Gynther said the team was still optimistic when the left in August of 2014 believing that the failure of the two most recent surveys “was due to the limited trapping effort.”

    Instead, they found the cay totally empty of its sole mammal, which was believed to have evolved in isolation from its nearest relative for nearly a million years and was considered the Great Barrier Reef’s only endemic mammal.
    Often i might bold a section of the article to highlight something, in this case the extinction of the only mammal, because that's it for mammal's on the Great Barrier Reef, because of AGW (man made climate change). It's sad and a warning.

    Why do this thread? Well like i said i consider it the biggest issue facing all of us, and i want a future, i believe in a future so while the tone of this thread may be often downbeat or some might find it depressing, we can't bury our heads in the sand about this issue, and we can solve the problem, we have the smarts and the technology to do so, we are just facing a corporate led political road block, and knowledge and awareness around the issue can unblock that, and i hope we do, sooner rather than later and we are already too late for the Great Barrier Reef mouse.
    Last edited by ZakG; 30-06-2016 at 08:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    I had considered visiting the Maldives on my upcoming honeymoon as they will be one of the first regions affected by climate change. Alas, the missus won out and we're headed elsewhere instead.

    I'd also point out that not all regions of the US are in denial, not even in traditionally conservative regions. Of course this is primarily true in coastal states like Florida, where the highest elevation is 105 meters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post

    I'd also point out that not all regions of the US are in denial, not even in traditionally conservative regions. Of course this is primarily true in coastal states like Florida, where the highest elevation is 105 meters.
    Meanwhile, here in the Pennsyltucky region, we're inundated with people who point to last winter's heavy snowfall and shout their denial from the rooftops by saying "It's cold out and we've got 3 feet of snow! Global warming is a LIE!" while simultaneously complaining each year about how we don't really have a spring or fall anymore, and how summers are getting hotter, and earlier.

    Gotta love willful ignorance.

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    Good on yez for starting the thread, climate change is woefully under reported in politics and the media.

    I believe that the change to renewables is inevitable, look at what's happening now. Post-COP21 all the nations involved in the UNFCCC acknowledge that climate change is real and real action must be taken against it. Countries including China are investing massively in renewables, within the last few years renewables have become truly competitive with fossil fuels in terms of cost.

    It's just a question of how late we will be in responding to it. The impact on people is potentially massive (and we are already seeing displacement and wars in east Africa due to drought, unprecedented flooding in Bangladesh, increases in extreme weather events around the world etc). The future is millions of people dying, displaced, destabalising regions of the world. Someone said re: the European refugee crisis in light of climate change, you ain't seen nothing yet. But one could callously suggest that human populations will bounce back, we are resilient and adaptable. Fucking entire ecosystems isn't something we can so easily reverse and will impact everyone who lives on earth forevermore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    I'd also point out that not all regions of the US are in denial, not even in traditionally conservative regions. Of course this is primarily true in coastal states like Florida, where the highest elevation is 105 meters.
    It is more that most of the corporate resistance to AGW comes from state side, which is not to say global corporate 'denial' about climate change is not a thing (BP, Shell all play their part in funding this), but as the primary 'oil economy' the USA has been hugely influential in the global non-response to climate change, famously so on many occasions (Kyoto etc), and Trump is all ready talking of killing the Paris agreement. Out of all the developed western world the USA is leading the resistance to AGW, and funding much of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    Good on yez for starting the thread, climate change is woefully under reported in politics and the media.

    I believe that the change to renewables is inevitable, look at what's happening now. Post-COP21 all the nations involved in the UNFCCC acknowledge that climate change is real and real action must be taken against it. Countries including China are investing massively in renewables, within the last few years renewables have become truly competitive with fossil fuels in terms of cost.
    There is a lot to be encouraged about in this, but as you say will we move in the direction of green/clean energy, away from oil and coal quickly enough? It is completely irresponsible of any government to not be fully invested in this shift currently, and one reason i will not be voting for the Conservatives ever again, they have shown complete contempt for our childrens future here, and all to make a personal quick buck. Disgusting.

    'Children at nearly 90 London secondary schools exposed to dangerous air pollution':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-air-pollution

    Children at nearly 90 secondary schools in London breathe illegal and dangerous levels of air pollution, a report for the mayor reveals.

    Former mayor Boris Johnson was accused in May of burying a report that showed hundreds of primary schools were in areas that breached EU pollution limits in 2010, prompting calls for greater action to clean up the capital’s air.

    But new research looking for the first time at which secondary schools in the capital are exposed to illegal levels of the toxic gas, nitrogen dioxide (NO2), has found Westminster, Tower Hamlets and Southwark are the boroughs with the highest number of secondaries in breach of the limits.

    Islington, Hammersmith and Fulham, and Lambeth had at least half a dozen or more secondary schools where pupils breathe air that breaches the limits. In total, 86 of the 100 secondary schools exposed to the highest NO2 levels in 2013 were above the annual mean limit of 40ug/m3 NO2.

    Most outer London boroughs had no secondary schools in areas that breached the threshold.

    Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, said: “These figures are of great concern and show why it is absolutely right we act now on London’s polluted air. It is simply not acceptable that young Londoners – our children, grandchildren, family, neighbours and friends – are being exposed to dangerously polluted air and putting them at greater risk of respiratory and other conditions.”
    I'm very happy to be out the Big Smoke these days, quality of life has gone through the roof since we moved away from London out into the stix, and for our families future health this seems like a good move too! Those are nasty stats for sure and have to be a concern for all families living in central London.

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    How long ago did we all ban CFC use? Over a decade? maybe 20 years ago? I'm not totally sure but i do remember it being a thing when younger and the issues around the hole in the ozone being a problem. I guess roughly around that time (and certainly still an issue today) it was difficult to be a 'sun worshipper' and have a great tan for most of the year, more than an hour in the sun these days and your in serious sun-burn trouble!

    So it is good news that it seems the Ozone hole is finally starting to repair itself it seems:

    'Antarctic ozone hole beginning to heal':

    http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/201...nning-to-heal/

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...scientists-say

    It might not become fully healed until 2060 or there abouts, so for the meantime we all need to be careful under the sun as per usual.

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    'The War on Science will change how you see the world':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-worldIt's

    It's about a book, and based in particular around the experiences state-side in the role politics and the media has played in shaping the resistance to the 97% climate consensus amongst scientists. But it has obvious global reach beyond the shores of the usa, and is important, maybe the most important subject for our generation.

    Otto, an organizer of the US Presidential Science Debates and a global speaker on science and democracy, started on the journey that led to this book in late 2007, when he noticed that the candidates weren’t talking about any of the big science, technology, health and environmental issues. Furthermore, the news media weren’t asking questions about these subjects even though they were impacting voters at least as much as economics and foreign policy.

    In fact, the top five TV news anchors asked the candidates 2,975 questions in 171 interviews, and just six mentioned the words “global warming” or “climate change,” the single largest environmental and economic question to face the planet. To put that in perspective, three mentioned UFOs.

    Flash forward eight years. In the week following the Paris climate accord, both the Democrats and the Republicans held presidential primary debates. Yet just days after 195 countries reached an historic agreement to begin rebuilding the world’s economy around clean energy, no journalist in either debate asked a single question about it.

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    'Three-quarters of people living in cities want clean air zones, poll finds':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...nes-poll-finds

    The UK may be on its way out of the EU but more than three-quarters (76%) of people want clean air zones to bring their cities into line with European standards, according to a YouGov poll.

    The poll comes as new forecasting suggests London will still breach the limits for another 14 years without further action and the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, prepares to make a major speech on pollution-cutting measures on Tuesday.

    Around 40,000 Britons die early every year from exposure to pollutants such as nitrogen dioxide (NO2) and particulate matter, and many more fall victim to illnesses ranging from heart attacks to bronchitis. Dozens of British cities have been in breach of EU NO2 limits since 2010.

    “This research demonstrates just how big an issue air quality has become,” said Dan Byles, the chairman of the Clean Air Alliance, which commissioned the research. “As awareness of the scale of the problem and evidence of pollution’s impact on our health has grown, people have become justifiably concerned.”

    Air pollution is rising up the political agenda in the wake of the VW emissions scandal, and as the health impacts of dirty air become clearer. One recent study linked air pollution to increased mental illness and children for the first time, and last week it was revealed that nearly 90 secondary schools in London are exposed to illegal levels of nitrogen dioxide.
    If i was still living in London i'd have agreed. Some days cycling anywhere near the main roads was just not an option due to the pollution levels (you could feel it in the back of your throat). When i was 'new' to London this prompted me to find better cycle routes and in the end i would commute along the Thames path, avoiding as many roads as possible, and you could feel the difference. Clean air zones sounds like a great idea.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    I just watched the documentary How to Let Go of the World and Love All the Things Climate Can't Change and it was an emotional roller coaster. It's from the same guy who made Gasland.
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    Sadly there are a lot of doylems out there that don't trust the experts or have a bloke down the pub view of science.

    There's a story on the bbc website about the hole in the ozone layer slowly healing, you should check out the morons in the comments deliberately confusing the issue with global warming saying basically "see these scientists are full of shit its all to do with solar flares / the magnetic field / god, nothing to do with burning carbon like crazy for the last 200 years"

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    And that is purely because of the disinformation campaign being run by (in particular) the big oil companies. Much of our media is also being paid by these guys to report rubbish. I remember reading that while scepticism of climate science in the usa was very high as a percentage of the population, it has also become worse in the uk over the last decade. I think that is entirely down to the media channels that might also be the same type that helped foster the Brexit vote (basically all the traditional right-wing media).

    -----------------------

    This article goes into the state-side aspect of this, and might be interesting in terms of our own situation in the uk?

    'Climate change: the missing issue of the 2016 campaign':

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lection-issues

    The race for the White House is failing to grapple with the key issues of the day, especially the urgent need to combat climate change before atmospheric changes become irreversible, a slice of the American electorate believes.

    As the primary election season turns toward a head-to-head between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, there is increasing anger and frustration over the nature of the contest. A Guardian call-out to online readers in the US asking them to reflect on the race so far was met by a barrage of criticism on the tone and substance of the world’s most important election – with the two main parties, individual candidates and the media all coming under heavy fire.

    The Guardian asked readers to identify the “one issue that affects your life you wish the presidential candidates were discussing more”. Resoundingly, the largest group of participants pointed to climate change.

    Of the 1,385 who responded to the call-out – from all 50 states – one in five expressed discontent at the relative silence from candidates around a subject that they believed to be of supreme and epochal importance. They noted that much of the Republican debate has either focused on blatant denial that climate change even exists or on how to unpick Barack Obama’s attempts to fight global warming, while on the Democratic side both Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have raised the issue but have rarely pushed it to the top of the political agenda.

    Many of the respondents vented despair at a political system that in their view allowed a matter of such overwhelming significance to be so overlooked. “The fact that no one is really talking about climate change, to me, is indicative of just how lost we are,” said Linda Hayden, 51, from Oregon. “Our house is on fire and we are arguing about who is more angry!”

    Vivid words and phrases were used to articulate the scale of the pending disaster that readers accused the presidential hopefuls of ignoring, such as “cataclysmic”, “running out of time”, “threat to human life”, “path towards destruction”, or in one particularly memorable remark: “slow-motion apocalypse”.

    A reader from Alaska, a state acutely feeling the impact of climate change, used the word “Doomed!”, while an 18-year-old woman from Tennessee who asked to remain anonymous simply said: “Freaking global climate change.” Jennie Ratcliffe, 66, from North Carolina quibbled with the Guardian’s wording of the question, saying “this is far more than an ‘issue’ – it’s a crisis”.

    “I’m a climate scientist, and almost no one in the general public knows just how serious and urgent this really is,” said Peter Kalmus, 41, from Altadena, California. “Not only is it real – it’s terrifying.”

    The concerns of voters came to light as part of the Guardian’s Voices of America series which aims to highlight the way key issues have been ignored or under-played during a primary season when trivial personal attacks seemed to take precedence over substantial debate of issues that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    I just watched the documentary How to Let Go of the World and Love All the Things Climate Can't Change and it was an emotional roller coaster. It's from the same guy who made Gasland.
    The trailer looks like intro to Alpha Centauri.

    Whiiich is not a good thing.

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    A big article!

    'The great tide: is Britain really equipped to cope with global warming?':

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-glbal-warming

    Over the last decade (a few years ago now) that i had been living and working in London i got to see the Thames flood parts of the Thames path quite frequently. More than a few times i was wading chest high through the water with my bike under water (this was in the section between Richmond and Kew), and on a couple of occasions i had to help rescue stranded people through the tide back to dry land.

    London is right at the fore front of cities having to deal with climate change right now, and it is set to get worse (pitty those with super expensive river side houses! well not too much, they are often the super wealthy!).
    Last edited by ZakG; 07-07-2016 at 10:21 AM.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    How long ago did we all ban CFC use?
    It's just embarrassing, and says a lot about our general commitment to the environment and our own public health, that CFCs are still being produced, used and released into the atmosphere. Same goes for tetraethyl lead which is somehow still being used in parts of the world despite lead toxicity being a known hazard since long before the dawn of science and the science on TEL being properly sorted out by the mid 20th century. Still it took 40 years in the US of scientists having to stand up to the oil industry (in jolly cooperation with the government) doing its very best to stomp their careers and institutions into the dirt before leaded gasoline was even reasonably phased out of sale, and the TEL industry just moved right on to lobbying 3rd world countries in ways that must have impressed even the tobacco industry.

    If past performance on environmental issues is any indicator, we're screwed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    'Three-quarters of people living in cities want clean air zones, poll finds'
    We still somehow have occasional nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide problems in the city where I live, despite having the money, infrastructure and every other tool needed to rid ourselves of them permanently. Despite the constant bitching about road congestion, maintenance costs, tolls, accidents and noise pollution it still seems impossible to get people not to drive their cars inside the city, where there are trams, trains, buses and boats accessible everywhere, usually with 5-10 minute departure intervals, so you don't even need to worry about time tables.

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    We still make CFC's? I guess they are needed in some things (like refrigeration iirc?) but i had thought most old CFC usage had shifted to other less damaging to the Ozone chemicals?

    Cars are an interesting topic in the climate change debate. I had been taking part in an electric car thread, and had nearly bought one last year, but chickened out and opted for a Fiesta Ecoboost instead. 'Soon' i keep telling myself, soon i will have an EV :)

    Anyway here is a story about the warming ocean causing large habitat changes off the southern Australian coast:

    'Australia's vast kelp forests devastated by marine heatwave, study reveals':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-study-reveals

    A hundred kilometres of kelp forests off the western coast of Australia were wiped out by a marine heatwave between 2010 and 2013, a new study has revealed.

    About 90% of the forests that make up the north-western tip of the Great Southern Reef disappeared over the period, replaced by seaweed turfs, corals, and coral fish usually found in tropical and subtropical waters.

    The Great Southern Reef is a system of rocky reefs covered by kelp forests that runs for 2,300km along the south coast of Australia, extending past Sydney on the east coast, down to Tasmania and, previously, back up to Kalbarri on the west coast.

    It supports most of the nation’s fisheries, including the lucrative rock lobster and abalone fisheries, and is worth about $10bn to the Australian economy. It is also a global biodiversity hotspot, with up to 30% of species endemic.

    Dr Thomas Wernberg, from the University of Western Australia’s oceans institute and lead author of the study, told the Guardian that 100km of kelp forest died following a marine heatwave in 2011 which saw the ocean temperature increase by 2C.

    The death of the kelp caused the functional extinction of 370sq km of rocky cool-climate reefs, extending down the coast from Kalbarri, about 570km north of Perth, Western Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    We still make CFC's? I guess they are needed in some things (like refrigeration iirc?) but i had thought most old CFC usage had shifted to other less damaging to the Ozone chemicals?
    Both CFCs and TEL initially just gradually switched markets from developed countries to poorer places where regulations were slower to be changed (or could be effectively lobbied against in the case of TEL) as they got phased out or banned. Same with wonderful inventions such as leaded paint and lead-sealed tin cans.

    CFCs are still not uncommon in consumer refrigeration in many places and it's also used in a lot of old fire combating systems, but at least it's nothing like it was when it was used as a general propellant. Last I heard there were still places in the 3rd world where leaded gasoline is still sold, and TEL is still used in some aviation fuel. Neither is anywhere near as problematic as it used to be (although lead is never a good thing to release into the atmosphere no matter the amount), but it's taken a looooong time for science to overcome financial interests and political inertia. We're going to have to do a lot better in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    Cars are an interesting topic in the climate change debate.
    Well, as one of nature's pedestrians my dislike of cars in big cities borders on the irrational, but the sheer volume of traffic and the issues it causes (of which pollution is fairly minor where I live) seems completely out of proportion with any possible benefits it brings. I'd absolutely be in favour of bumping up the road tolls in and out of the city a couple of thousand percent to make the bastards carry some of their own costs.

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    Sadly there are many area's where large corporations simply turn to 'new markets' (developing world) when they are caught with their pants down, in a last ditch effort to leverage their IP for more cash. So you say that is going on with CFC and leaded petrol, and i will raise you the humble cigarette.

    I'm a well travelled individual, and all should take this advice; never buy your fags in a developing country. Chances are they will either be 'fake' famous brands with god knows what in them, or just the worst type of unregulated health monstrosities that were forced off the markets in our own countries years ago. Big Tobacco makes a killing in the developing world.

    ---------------------

    Sucks to be a polar bear for sure!

    'Arctic sea ice crashes to record low for June':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...d-low-for-june

    The summer sea ice cover over the Arctic raced towards oblivion in June, crashing through previous records to reach a new all-time low.

    The Arctic sea ice extent was a staggering 260,000 sq km (100,000 sq miles) below the previous record for June, set in 2010. And it was 1.36m sq km (525,000 sq miles) below the 1981-2010 long-term average, according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

    That means a vast expanse of ice – an area about twice the size of Texas – has vanished over the past 30 years, and the rate of that retreat has accelerated.

    Aside from March, each month in 2016 has set a grim new low for sea ice cover, after a record warm winter.
    I really wish there was some kind of international enforcement to forbid drilling for oil in the Arctic. It really is unbelievable that not only is this not an illegal action, but pretty much all our big energy companies are lined up waiting for the chance to get going. They are completely insane (and immoral).

    I'm glad the 'divest' campaign is going so well. It needs to keep going and forcing the issue.
    Last edited by ZakG; 08-07-2016 at 08:19 AM.

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    'Global warming to blame for hundreds of heatwave deaths, scientists say':

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...scientists-say

    The article just looked at Paris and London, but keep in mind this is a totally global issue, India had thousands of deaths related to heatwaves just recently as have other places all around the globe over recent years. It is why forcing our governments to take action on the issue is of prime importance. Man made climate change is already killing us, we need to not let the effects become worse in the future.
    Last edited by ZakG; 09-07-2016 at 08:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unruly View Post
    Meanwhile, here in the Pennsyltucky region, we're inundated with people who point to last winter's heavy snowfall and shout their denial from the rooftops by saying "It's cold out and we've got 3 feet of snow! Global warming is a LIE!" while simultaneously complaining each year about how we don't really have a spring or fall anymore, and how summers are getting hotter, and earlier.

    Gotta love willful ignorance.
    Personal anecdote: My dad has always pushed the importance of school, reading, and science onto us kids. He's also always been one of the smartest people I've ever known. Imagine my surprise when calling them one day that the 'rant of the day' (which is pretty much the extent of our conversations these days) then turned into how climate change is a lie, there's no proof, it's a liberal agenda, etc. The call then devolved into the usual racist rant/blaming Obama (they moved to South Carolina and became extremely conservative and religious) so I just made up an excuse to hang up. Anyway, I literally went around in a daze for the next few hours as I replayed the conversation in my head; it just so completely affected the view of my dad that I didn't know how to digest it all.
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    right-wing radicalisation is a real and present danger all around the world currently, and the easiest of all radicalisation to subject people to, and it nearly always ultimately leads to some form of fascism.

    Many (most?) of the media these days are at varying levels of being vessels for this right-wing movement that is sweeping our world, some obviously much worse than others (Fox News for example).

    My background is mostly to the left, that was the family basic political outlook growing up. My brother, like your father, transitioned really quickly into a right-wing radical, he voted for Brexit and pretty much all his 'humane' left leaning instincts have been over-written over these last five years or so. For him it was a combination of his ex (and her family, a nasty selfish lot) and the media he ended up reading (The Sun from his work guys, The Daily mail out of choice it seems(!) and having Sky for his TV and internet, so Sky news etc).

    Propaganda is extremely powerful, and most of us undergo it much of the time, you have to learn to see it for what it is and not let it get hold of your reason, once that happens your pretty much lost sadly.

    And you are right that the subject of climate change has been a part of this right-wing propaganda and it is the main reason we have done so little to help ourselves (globally). The view point of the 'right' on climate change has been made loud and clear all across those media channels until fairly recently when the actual scientific evidence could no longer be ignored. Still pretty much all the Republicans in the usa publicly deny it is a thing, and in the uk the Tories are eager to Frack the land out from under us. Classic New Fascism.
    Last edited by ZakG; 09-07-2016 at 09:14 PM.

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