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  1. #1
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    Aaron Hernandez Patriot NFL Player Dead

    It was a shocking news for me about Aaron Hernandez being found dead in his prison cell yesterday.
    Sad to hear about this.
    I just cannot believe how someone gets the courage to do a suicide.
    I am sure there must be many NFL fans out here who would know him and may have something to say about this.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    A life sentence can be a hell of a motivator.
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  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    A life sentence can be a hell of a motivator.
    Yeah, this, I think. I can't say what I would've done in his situation, but the idea of having to spend the rest of your life in the same building...
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  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    3 things:

    I find it impossible to see 'Patriot' as anything but a synonym for 'Racist' these days.

    Why do so many violent men in America retain their celebrity status and popularity? Murderers, wife beaters, sexual predators.

    What is brave about suicide it is pulling the rip cord to eject out of life, it is explicitly cowardly, sometimes justified if it's the only way to end suffering but never brave.
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  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I find it impossible to see 'Patriot' as anything but a synonym for 'Racist' these days.
    Well, either that or a closeted cryptofascist and/or a religious conservative. All three groups are equally revolting, really, the societal equivalent of a clogged up toilet.
    Also known as ATrifleMiffed

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Why do so many violent men in America retain their celebrity status and popularity? Murderers, wife beaters, sexual predators.
    Since I had no idea who this person was when I read the first post, I had to look him up. This guy murdered a friend of his. Executed, really, since apparently he took him out to a remote location and then shot him several times. It's hard for me to relate to someone who remained a fan after that.

    As for suicide being cowardly, and never brave - that's really facile, and not really true if you give it much thought, rather than just going for the superficial analysis. It depends enormously on the person, the circumstances, and their motivations, like almost any other action.

    It's only cowardly, as you put it, if you're doing it out of fear. Suicide for emotional reasons generally falls into this category, though I'm hesitant to even say that because that's a fairly sweeping generalization as well.

    Suicide can be a completely pragmatic decision. If you're in enormous physical pain, it's not "cowardly" to decide that dying is better than the continued pain. I think you're doing people who have to make that decision a disservice when you say that's "never brave," because that can be a really tough decision to make. Death's final, after all, and means losing everything else in addition to the pain. How "brave" it is depends a great deal on how the person's thinking about it.

    If you're doing it for someone else's benefit, that can be brave. If you really have no desire to die, but don't see any other solution. If it's a "lifeboats on a sinking ship" scenario, and you decide to give up your place for someone else, that's effectively suicide and brave. In a show I watched recently, a character paid a hitman to kill him so his wife could collect his life insurance. It wasn't the smartest solution, but he wasn't being cowardly.

    Granted doing it for someone else is a rare circumstance, but it does happen, and it invalidates your generalization.

  7. #7
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL and Heliocentric View Post
    [critique on the concept of patriotism]


    "Patriots" is just the name of the club. What the word means to the more cynical among you should perhaps be discussed outside of a thread with suicide as it's main subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    It's only cowardly, as you put it, if you're doing it out of fear. Suicide for emotional reasons generally falls into this category, though I'm hesitant to even say that because that's a fairly sweeping generalization as well.
    I'd imagine that depression, misery and hopelessness are factors in a lot of suicides and none of those are fear.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    "Patriots" is just the name of the club. .
    I know this that makes it seem all the more absurd.

    But don't mix up your personal feelings and your responsibility as a moderator by addressing it as cynical.

    But as you said let's focus on the suicide of the hero worshipped murderer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    Granted doing it for someone else is a rare circumstance, but it does happen, and it invalidates your generalization.
    Perhaps a handful, I imagine a larger proportion of suicide victims (?) identify themselves as doing it for heroic reasons than actually are, but I am sticking to my predisposition that the lions share do it for cowardly and selfish reasons.

    There is little you can achieve in death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus_Smedstad View Post
    It's hard for me to relate to someone who remained a fan after that.
    On this at least we agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarfrin View Post
    I'd imagine that depression, misery and hopelessness are factors in a lot of suicides and none of those are fear.
    Fear of further depression, fear further misery, fear of further hopelessness.

    That's all fear.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 21-04-2017 at 04:12 PM.
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  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    There is little you can achieve in death.


    Except taking away pain that they feel.

    Just as a friendly warning. Do not presume and do not dengrate people that commit suicide as cowards or anything like that. It is extreme and I would definitely not do it. But I work in a mental health charity and soo many people come to us with feelings of real depression and pain and the only way they can see out of it is killing themselves. They should be helped and should be cared for and mocking them is just bad taste.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    It's not mockery, I'm am denigrating it mind. I see it as much like many things people do its an irrational and destructive and short sighted behavior for so many that do it.

    I already indicated that I agree suicide can liberate people from suffering in my first post here, but who has time to read while the moral high ground is hot.

    What I disagreed with was calling it brave.

    brave /breɪv/
    adjective
    ready to face and endure danger or pain; showing courage.
    Death is not enduring.

    You challenge me but not the OP who calls suicide brave? What kind of a crock do you work for?
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 21-04-2017 at 05:08 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Fear of further depression, fear further misery, fear of further hopelessness.
    That's all fear.
    That's not how it works. I'm not arguing that suicide is brave, but to characterise it as someone being scared of more depression misunderstands how people in that situation are feeling, IMO.

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarfrin View Post
    That's not how it works. I'm not arguing that suicide is brave, but to characterise it as someone being scared of more depression misunderstands how people in that situation are feeling, IMO.
    Fair enough, I've never attempted suicide myself, so I'll admit I can't speak directly to any anecdotes of what people feel. So I'll admit to limited individual experience.
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  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Eh from what I remember fear of more depression is a part of it.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Just as a friendly warning. Do not presume and do not dengrate people that commit suicide as cowards or anything like that. It is extreme and I would definitely not do it. But I work in a mental health charity and soo many people come to us with feelings of real depression and pain and the only way they can see out of it is killing themselves. They should be helped and should be cared for and mocking them is just bad taste. [/COLOR]
    Bravery doesn't even factor into it, not in my experience at any rate. A lot of complex factors lead to people actual deciding to pull the (in some cases metaphorical) trigger, but as far as I understand it it's pretty much because they feel they have no other option. Depression does nasty things to your brain, especially if combined with a period of heavy stress or, worse yet, traumatic events - it pretty much wrecks your perception of experiences and your decision-making, and if not controlled can very easily take control of you (and it's very difficult to control, because it messes with all of the things you need to do so). Your worldview turns pitch black and suicide starts looking like an entirely rational course of action.

    I'll admit, I'm not the most informed person to ask, most of my knowledge of it comes from a good bit of introspection done after wrestling with those feelings myself. Never to the point of actually trying to go through with it, but... well, depression is a nasty thing. Scary, too - at its core it's a simple hormonal imbalance, yet it can completely reshape your mind, often without you even noticing.
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  16. #16
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    Suicide: Read this First puts it in a really good way:
    Suicide is not chosen; it happens
    when pain exceeds
    resources for coping with pain.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Suicide: Read this First puts it in a really good way:
    Putting aside other things to do with suicide like terminal illness or many cultures (across time and location) having honourable concepts of suicide. So putting all that aside. The idea that depression removes someone's choice or rationality is extremely annoying. It's what leads to stupid laws where people get sectioned and lose their basic rights instead of treating things on a spectrum or more contextually.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Eh from what I remember fear of more depression is a part of it.
    I should have said some people rather than just people.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Gus_Smedstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    . The idea that depression removes someone's choice or rationality is extremely annoying.
    Wasn't there a game that was based around that idea? I recall seeing a trailer where you'd get a list of options, and depression would cross the logical ones off.

  20. #20

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