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  1. #1241
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Seems I underestimated the writers on that one. They actually somehow made it at least a kilometre away from where they fell in, underwater and in armour, and Jaime with his golden hand and all.
    Okay, so I've yet to see the episode (yay, Third World Problems), but I had to pop in just to say:

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  2. #1242
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Turns out Jon is not a bastard after all. Can't wait to see the scene when this is revealed to Dany.

    We are all Davos.
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  3. #1243
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    How unexpected.
    Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook.
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  4. #1244
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Okay, first of all, thank you Bronn for bringing up at least some of the issues with Jaime's whole train of thought at the end of the last episode. Not that I'll forgive the biology and physics defying rescue of Jaime, but it's a start.

    Now though, what the hell was up with that execution? Why did everyone in the story treat it as a moral event horizon moment for Dany? Randyll and Dickon were both traitors (okay, Dickon was just following orders, but Westerosi tradition does not absolve him of responsibility as I understand it), who fought against their sworn liege, an order of crime which is pretty much unforgivable in Westerosi culture, as demonstrated by how much shit Jaime gets from everyone. Randyll insulted his captor, refused to bend the knee or take the Black (which are pretty much automatic pardon from anyone apart from Stannis) and generally did everything in his power to get himself executed, and Dickon willingly joined him. And it's not like the execution itself was cruel and unusual, considering Drogon blew them both away so quickly they could not possibly have felt anything (seriously, his flame breath is pretty much Sergeant Schlock's plasma cannon at this point, complete with ominous hum). So as far as (Westerosi) morality is concerned, it's entirely above board. Better than the average, in fact. But no, Varys has to go and compare it to something completely different because we need to manufacture more drama.

    Drogon is the real MVP though, for defusing the animosity between Daenerys and Jon by cuddling up to him after figuring out he's a Targaryen. And he totally did figure it out.

    Elsewhere, Gendry is back and he's still awesome! And Cersei is still completely mental and Jaime is still sticking with her even though she is quite clearly utterly unhinged by this point and is now threatening to kill him, and he insists on sticking his dick in crazy. And the tedious and mostly pointless side plot with Sam finally closes down. We've learned nothing (apart from that annulment bit, which Sam ignored), done nothing of use apart from healing Jorah and generally wasted time that could have been spent on more important things. It's season 7's answer to Dorne.
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  5. #1245
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    done nothing of use apart from healing Jorah
    He did also figure out that Dragonstone is made of obsidian, which seems significant. I was left wondering if Gendry fashioned a new dragonglass hammer head before absconding north for the Bastards' Quest.

  6. #1246
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ethelred's Avatar
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    The Actor Kevin Eldon.

    That is all.

  7. #1247
    Lesser Hivemind Node gordianblot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Randyll insulted his captor, refused to [...] take the Black (which are pretty much automatic pardon from anyone apart from Stannis) and generally did everything in his power to get himself executed
    It was less of a refusal than it was a legal stance. "Well, Madam Stormborn, I would take the black but technically you aren't on the throne yet so I can't truly to be ordered to the Wall." Good thing he didn't do anything rash.

  8. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    KJ Parker's Engineer trilogy goes one step further and features the invention of welding necessary to make cannon--and even further, the trades, tools, technology, economy, resource extraction, etc etc in exhaustive detail necessary to jumpstart a culture from the iron age to that point.

    However. I do read a ton of fantasy and I would say that a majority of it, particularly that set in medieval European-ish settings, does not feature gunpowder firearms.
    I agree, but the vast majority of it, and I will argue the toss with you this, given you're reading many of the same books as me, is set the technological equivalent of 800-1200 AD. I mean, look at Robin Hobb's Assassin/River Wild books (I dunno what the name for the whole thing is), the only thing really more modern than about 1100-1200 AD technologically is some of the ship design and maaaaaaaaaaybe the metallurgy but not really because the Saxons were making swords that good in the 800s. No-one has plate armour or anything of the sort, castles are pretty primitive, and so on. She's clearly not dodging gunpowder, either, because in the Soldier Son trilogy (ugh Worst. Protagonist. Ever.), it was guns guns guns.

    It's not that they're "failing to acknowledge it", that's what I'm arguing with. If EPIC had "most fantasy doesn't have guns in it", I'd have agreed (though an increasing amount does every single year, and a slightly large proportion has explosives), but that's a different thing entirely.

    Don't even get me started on the Engineer trilogy - I mean I know I just said "Worst. Protagonist. Ever." about Soldier Son, but FUCK THAT ENGINEER GUY FUCK HIM SO HARD. He's definitely worse than Hitler, like actually worse than Hitler. Maybe not as successful as Hitler at committing evil, but solely due to a lack of opportunity. Wow, what a fucking worthless scumbag, and Parker really seems to think we might give a shit about that piece of shit and his shitty, shitty, shitty opinions. A character so awful, that it actually made me hate KJ Parker too. Also because I found his plan fundamentally implausible on a variety of levels, the level of bullshit-acceptance required to believe that society functions like a clockwork was beyond my ability to achieve. And it was hardly the "Iron Age", it was about 1400 technologically and societaly already, just missing a couple of things.

    Oh my god it's like people are just mentioning all the very worst main characters lately - we had bloody Kellhus from Prince of Nothing in the other thread. I am so traumatized! :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Regarding tonight's episode: "I wondered if you were still rowing." That is all.
    BOOOOOM as I said at the time. He was just knocking them out of the park.

    I fucking LOVED this episode it was just like one thing after another in hilarious, actually-plot-moving, well-established characters, fun scenes (if not super plausible ones but w/e!) and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Now though, what the hell was up with that execution? Why did everyone in the story treat it as a moral event horizon moment for Dany?
    Yeah what the fuck right?

    Like fuck you Varys and Tyrion, what did you want, her to have her barbarians chop off their heads? How would that be better? Because that was literally the only alternative those that pair of grade A wankers gave her. So I guess that is the end of House Tarly, because Sam took the Black, unless he's just going to do a Jon, and say "Well fuck dat...". It they were going to die they might as well die spectacularly and serving a purpose.

    Talking of Jon, he's no longer a bastard, given Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that is kind of serious news and also potentially a serious problem for Dany, if anyone but Sam's long-suffering wife (?) Gilly ever finds out. Of course they could just have a sexy Targaryen Aunt-Nephew wedding I suppose (that is the relationship, right?). Or maybe they could decide it's okay to have a King in the North if he's another Targaryen (as Drogon the Dragon comfirmed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethelred View Post
    The Actor Kevin Eldon.

    That is all.
    Yes. That was delightful. That whole fucking scene. Also I just love Gendry so much already. He doesn't fuck around or give any fucks. He is very definitely someone's player character in this RPG.
    Last edited by LexW; 15-08-2017 at 12:48 AM.

  9. #1249
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    My summation of Gendry in this series:

    "The world fucking sucks.

    But I have a big freakin' hammer.

    All is good and fixable."


    Also: The swords in question you're interested are these:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulfberht_swords

    The one and only case in which the subject of a trademark dispute is also its summary resolution.

  10. #1250
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Okay, first of all, thank you Bronn for bringing up at least some of the issues with Jaime's whole train of thought at the end of the last episode. Not that I'll forgive the biology and physics defying rescue of Jaime, but it's a start.
    I guess plot armour is just very buoyant.


    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    Now though, what the hell was up with that execution? Why did everyone in the story treat it as a moral event horizon moment for Dany?
    I think the idea is that burning people alive parallels the Mad King. If they'd played it as a PR thing that'd be fine, but yeah, it's not like Dany hasn't already done a bunch of far worse murdering. But hey, she's also being all cute and talking about boys with Missandei and doe-eyeing Jon and wants to break the wheel of feudalism by violently reclaiming her feudal birthright, so we like her... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    And Cersei is still completely mental and Jaime is still sticking with her even though she is quite clearly utterly unhinged by this point and is now threatening to kill him, and he insists on sticking his dick in crazy.
    Jaime's character arc just stalling, regressing and jumping back and forth is one of the most frustrating things with the show in the last two seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by EPICTHEFAIL View Post
    And the tedious and mostly pointless side plot with Sam finally closes down. We've learned nothing (apart from that annulment bit, which Sam ignored), done nothing of use apart from healing Jorah and generally wasted time that could have been spent on more important things. It's season 7's answer to Dorne.
    I was really hoping they'd go somewhere with the Oldtown plot. The scene with Ebrose in this was another promising one, but now Sam has left and we've lost eyes on Oldtown I guess it'll be just like all the other places that just disappear once we run out of characters there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    He did also figure out that Dragonstone is made of obsidian, which seems significant.
    He was reminded, you mean. Stannis told Sam that at the Wall, but apparently he didn't take the most serious man in Westeros seriously, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    Like fuck you Varys and Tyrion, what did you want, her to have her barbarians chop off their heads? How would that be better? Because that was literally the only alternative those that pair of grade A wankers gave her.
    Well, if history, common practice and internal consistency were still things in the show, the better thing to do would have been torching Randyll and taking Dickon as a hostage. That'd give them a good shot at keeping the Tarlys, and possibly a bunch of other houses, on side or at least out of the fight. Not that Dorne, or the Westerlands, or the Reach are going to matter now that we don't have any established characters there.

    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    Of course they could just have a sexy Targaryen Aunt-Nephew wedding I suppose (that is the relationship, right?).
    Yeah, Dany is his aunty, and I certainly hope the now seemingly inevitable hookup ends up being a proper disaster. I am worried it'll end up all lovey and we'll get a scene of the wall crumbling intercut with Jon giving Dany amazing head in a cave or something. I have no faith.



    What else can I moan about? Oh yeah, Arya is not only a face-changing super assassin and stealthy pie-baker extraordinaire who somehow became a master sword fighter with no training (and wasn't her sword hidden away the entire time she was in Braavos? When did she train herself, exactly?), she's also multi-classed into thief and knows how to pick locks. And Littlefinger knows this... somehow? His plan to play the Stark girls against each other by using Sansa's letter hinges on a little noble girl, whom he's never paid any attention, knowing how to break into his chambers. And of course it also hinges on Sansa not just saying "yeah, I wrote that under duress, you know, from Cersei, the psychotic maniac woman whose family murdered most of our family and kept me hostage and tortured me at King's Landing".


    edit: Wasn't Daenerys born on Dragonstone by the way? So when Randyll says "Say what you will about Cersei, she was born in Westeros..." shouldn't Dany just go: "Yeah, well so was I"?
    Last edited by Skalpadda; 15-08-2017 at 06:42 AM.

  11. #1251
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Wasn't Daenerys born on Dragonstone by the way? So when Randyll says "Say what you will about Cersei, she was born in Westeros..." shouldn't Dany just go: "Yeah, well so was I"?
    Oh, please, you're expecting the writers of a show that depends on internal consistency to remember important plot points from the current season? How very naive of you.
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  12. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    What else can I moan about? Oh yeah, Arya is not only a face-changing super assassin and stealthy pie-baker extraordinaire who somehow became a master sword fighter with no training (and wasn't her sword hidden away the entire time she was in Braavos? When did she train herself, exactly?), she's also multi-classed into thief and knows how to pick locks. And Littlefinger knows this... somehow? His plan to play the Stark girls against each other by using Sansa's letter hinges on a little noble girl, whom he's never paid any attention, knowing how to break into his chambers. And of course it also hinges on Sansa not just saying "yeah, I wrote that under duress, you know, from Cersei, the psychotic maniac woman whose family murdered most of our family and kept me hostage and tortured me at King's Landing".
    No multi-classing needed (this is literally true too - I can't think of an edition of D&D where Assassins can't pick locks). No-way you get out of assassin school without knowing how to pick locks. I mean, you wouldn't be much of a professional assassin if a locked door was "MISSION OVER", would you? She's not just some marketplace stab-artist. She didn't train herself on this, it's part of any pro assassin's training (not just in D&D, either, in fiction - including computer games - generally assassins can pick locks).

    Littlefinger knowing she knows this kind of thing is a much better and less silly question, but you're wrong to suggest it can't have a good answer. The potentially best answer is that, because he knows a lot of deeply sketchy shit, he may somehow recognise her as a Faceless Man, and thus knows what to expect.

    An equally good answer was that he didn't know, but suspected and wanted to find out. If his plan didn't produce results, he lost nothing, remember. He was surely aware of her following him, being shifty-as-fuck himself.

    As for the last bit, well, that's the weak point, isn't it, but Arya is right little wanker, isn't she? She's unpleasant and judgmental to her sister, has shown a lack of interest in either explanations or being realistic about things - as we saw with her "Just murder everyone!" solution to a non-problem earlier. This isn't a new trait, either. It was kind of endearing when she was murdering bad people, but is less so when she's mooching about the castle being a divot.

    Also, you may have forgotten, but Sansa was on her list at one point (at least in the books), so she might not need that much pushing. Also Littlefinger may have another layer to his plan if they do talk it out. I know we're (rightfully) mocking the show-runners for forgetting stuff, but I'm pretty sure they remembered Sansa being on the list from how uncomfortable Arya looked when Sansa asked her about the list.
    Last edited by LexW; 15-08-2017 at 10:53 AM.

  13. #1253
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    The RPG character reference was just meant mockingly, because that's how Arya's character feels lately. None of this has been set up: we've never seen her being trained with a sword (the few lessons with Syrio Forel excepted), we haven't seen her actually train to be a killer or assassin or how to break into places or anything else really. She spent all her time in Braavos sweeping floors, washing bodies and getting beaten up with a stick. The only reason she could even beat the Waif is because she'd learned to fight in darkness (though they skipped the cat warging from the book, so perhaps she learned echolocation in the show, or whatever). Fighting blind and changing faces are the only skills that are set up at all in the show, and even then very vaguely. Yet here she is, able to do whatever the plot needs her to, or whatever the writers think is cool, because she's suddenly a max level badass. It feels cartoony, and even the notion that she's a bit psychotic and broken are being played up as crowd-pleasing badassery by the show.

    As for Littlefinger, sure, we can imagine that he knows anything. He has Braavosi ancestry and is a man who thrives on secrets, so it's not unreasonable to believe he might know some stuff about the Faceless Men. But it's not set up at all, and we're also asked to believe this is the man who had no clue what Ramsay was before handing over the incredibly valuable Sansa, but would have detailed knowledge of the abilities of a little girl who has spent the last couple of years fallen off the face of the world.

    And the last bit, well, it's not a terribly risky plan for Littlefinger, at least on the surface ("I was just trying to protect Sansa from suspicion/embarrassment"), but for his purposes, which I assume is driving a wedge between the Stark siblings, it does rely on them not communicating like normal human beings, a writing trope I absolutely hate.

  14. #1254
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Shouldn't the breaker of chains realize that saying to everyone that you better follow me because I got a Dragon is not really a good idea and is no different to what other rulers are doing really? That's why I think the Varys scene has merit I think, because it comments on that.

  15. #1255
    Network Hub spacein_vader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    edit: Wasn't Daenerys born on Dragonstone by the way? So when Randyll says "Say what you will about Cersei, she was born in Westeros..." shouldn't Dany just go: "Yeah, well so was I"?
    To be fair, the whole line Randyll says is that Cersei was born in Westeros and has lived here all her life, I'd give them a pass on that but there's a lot of other bullshit.
    Last edited by spacein_vader; Yesterday at 11:04 PM.

  16. #1256
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Can we have an unofficial rule for this forum that there should be no discussion, mention, spoilers, hints, anything at all for any unofficial or leaked episode release? Once the episode airs officially it's all fair game. I avoid this thread starting from Sunday evening until I've seen the new episode and that's how it's supposed to work. Discussion of leaks subverts that.
    Last edited by Matt_W; Today at 01:09 AM.

  17. #1257
    Network Hub spacein_vader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Can we have an unofficial rule for this forum that there should be no discussion, mention, spoilers, hints, anything at all for any unofficial or leaked episode release? Once the episode airs officially it's all fair game. I avoid this thread starting from Sunday evening until I've seen the new episode and that's how it's supposed to work. Discussion of leaks subverts that.
    Apologies. I kept it as vague as possible and it was intended to be a discussion of ropey mechanics that have previously been touched upon. I've now deleted it, though you need to remove your quote to render the thread spoiler free again.

  18. #1258
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    Apologies. I kept it as vague as possible and it was intended to be a discussion of ropey mechanics that have previously been touched upon. I've now deleted it, though you need to remove your quote to render the thread spoiler free again.
    No worries and thanks for removing it. :)

  19. #1259
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    (Leak spoilers whited out)

    Well, Tormund, Thoros, and the Hound all being in the same place at the same time proved amusing as expected. Here's to hoping we get more of the Hound in the rest of GoT.

    Also, zombie dragon, I fucking called it the instant they sent the raven. Scene is set for the final battle, the Night King on one dragon, Jon and Dany on the other two. I'll be surprised if that doesn't happen now.

    And chronic stupidity must run in Stark genes or something, Sansa and Arya are both so unbelievably stupid, it's like watching a bad soap opera, conflicts any reasonably sane person would solve with one or two sentences blow up into something ridiculous. Wishing Dany would feed them both to Drogon, this season characters like Dany have really grown on me, while my previous favourites like Tyrion (now captain boring) and Arya (relapsed into Stark-grade idiocy) just annoy me.

    Before this season started, I predicted the White Walkers would breach the wall in the season finale. I maintain that as being a likely end to the season. Though I previously also predicted the war for the Iron Throne would conclude this season, that hasn't panned out at all.

  20. #1260
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    To be fair, the whole line Randyll says is that Cersei was born in Westeros and has lived here all her life, I'd give them a pass on that but there's a lot of other bullshit.
    Sure, but it's still an odd way to start your argument, and he also claims that Dany has "no ties to this land" which is clearly complete bull in a feudal society where her family ruled the kingdoms for ages. Also no mention of the fact that Randyll fought for Dany's dad in Robert's rebellion.

    I'm not sure how to articulate my problem with all this properly, but I guess what I want is for the hands of the writers to be more invisible. Comparing to previous seasons (and the books), all the scheming, manoeuvring and murdering felt like it was being done by the characters, while these days it's far more transparently the writers moving pieces around as it suits them, hence the lack of setups, character motivation, contradictions and teleporting.

    In this case the impression I'm getting is that they didn't want to have to deal with the Reach or these two characters any more, so they killed them dramatically, and dramatically killing them was more important than who the characters were or staying true to the world building. They're also using it as a way to problematise Dany a little, but that's something they should have been doing throughout the last 6 seasons and have kind of failed at. You can't have her do this one rash thing and have us care when every other stupid, rash or questionable thing she's done has still had her presented as heroic.

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