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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Right, I'll try one last time. It's not that I think every single thing needs to make sense, it's that ther are *so many things* that could do with making sense.
    But so many of your examples seem to be irrelevant to the larger audience. You have also consistently ignored the cost in time and budget and audience patience which would be required fill in some of this stuff (some is trivial, I agree - but much is not). So it seems like you're just saying it's laziness or ineptitude - and I don't think it is - a think a lot of the stuff missed out was very calculatedly missed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I do, and I was voicing my own opinion; I'm not demanding that other people share it.
    But you are repeatedly saying that it's bad writing - as in inept, incompete. Not writing you dislike, or writing you disfavour for it's decision to miss stuff you feel is important, but bad writing.

    Now, maybe you're using bad writing as shorthand for writing you dislike, but I get the feeling that's not the case.

    I mean, let's look at one specific example - Arya and the pies. Could they have made it more plausible and less DUN-DUN-DUUUUUUUNN!-ish? Sure. But there's a cost. It wasn't ineptitude, I suggest, that lead to it being done like that, it was an active decision that drama > plausibility, when the point is got across. That's not bad writing. It may well be disagreeable-to-you writing though. But it's not bad.

    Whereas "bad pussy" and a bunch of other lines? Fairly terrible writing in a much more general way.

  2. #1082
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    It's bad and you should feel bad.

  3. #1083
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    But so many of your examples seem to be irrelevant to the larger audience. You have also consistently ignored the cost in time and budget and audience patience which would be required fill in some of this stuff (some is trivial, I agree - but much is not). So it seems like you're just saying it's laziness or ineptitude - and I don't think it is - a think a lot of the stuff missed out was very calculatedly missed out.
    Well you quoted my answer below this, but I'll restate: I'm not talking about the enjoyment of the larger audience, I'm talking about my own opinions. I am however not at all convinced that lots of people liking something should be taken as a direct indicator of quality in either direction.

    As for cost, a whole bunch of these things are script level problems that could have been fixed without incurring any additional production cost; simply writing better and more creative dialogue would have done the trick and that part of production is very cheap relative to the gigantic roll-out of full TV production.

    Some of these things could even have been sorted out in editing; a bunch of the time-skip teleporting that goes on would've been a lot less jarring if we didn't also have more linear travel, such as Sam and Gilly setting out from Castle Black last season, taking a ship most of the way, and arriving in Old Town this last episode.


    Quote Originally Posted by LexW View Post
    But you are repeatedly saying that it's bad writing - as in inept, incompete. Not writing you dislike, or writing you disfavour for it's decision to miss stuff you feel is important, but bad writing.

    Now, maybe you're using bad writing as shorthand for writing you dislike, but I get the feeling that's not the case.

    I mean, let's look at one specific example - Arya and the pies. Could they have made it more plausible and less DUN-DUN-DUUUUUUUNN!-ish? Sure. But there's a cost. It wasn't ineptitude, I suggest, that lead to it being done like that, it was an active decision that drama > plausibility, when the point is got across. That's not bad writing. It may well be disagreeable-to-you writing though. But it's not bad.

    Whereas "bad pussy" and a bunch of other lines? Fairly terrible writing in a much more general way.
    I am of the opinion that leaving gigantic holes and peppering the story and dialogue with nonsense or inconsistencies is objectively inept and/or lazy writing, at least when you're depicting a world where one of the central pillars is cause and effect and the consequences of the characters' actions. Whether people care about that is another matter, and if they don't then more power to them. It's also not as if I haven't acknowledged that the show has many good qualities: The acting is generally very good, there's some ambitious cinematography going on and a lot of the interaction between characters is thoroughly entertaining.

    "Arya and the pies" I think is a perfect example of laziness. You seem to assume that either the Frey pies happen or nothing happens. I'd argue that it should be possible for professional creative writers to come up with their own device for similar effect, rather than directly lift an element from the books and inserting it into a part of the show where it doesn't make logistical sense.

  4. #1084
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    I'm getting along with Skalpadda here: I get that in a few scenes that were lifted from the books this season, I get the sense that they just included them becuase they looked cool rather then looking at *why* they're cool. I don't agree with the assumption that is lazy. Benefit of the doubt says that it's more about having to work in the tight constraints of TV where things are often quickly too long and too expensive.

  5. #1085
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Nah I just thing there smoothing out things that probably need to be smoothed out to get the train going on track, but I have to feel everything is feeling rote now when it didn't used to be. I mean I don't need the show to be killing off characters that we never though they killed for it to be exciting or new, I just want things to not just feel so...predictable.

  6. #1086
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    I heard ramsay killed oshaa before so this rampage is kind of a hook, basically a bunch of characters who don't really deal with any change go out with the blastwave, you expect it because it's the final grimderp beyond smoothing things up. So Idk Arya and hound survive because they have things to do. It's economy the show did little about through the seasons despite the number of deaths. But it's kind of sensational atm and could've left older guys die naturally offscreen for example, Idk.
    Last edited by Wenz; 06-07-2016 at 10:50 PM.

  7. #1087
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Well, I finally got to watch the last episode after being on vacation when it aired.
    Pretty good, if a bit bitty and mostly tying up things in the way people had been predicting.

    I know the Jon S/T thing was an internet theory, but I doubt I'd have guessed it myself so it'd have been a pretty big surprise. Though they didn't actually confirm it, so I might still not have gotten it yet if I hadn't read about it.

    I still have a hard time seeing GRRM go with a "chosen-one" plot where the Targereans (?) have a divine right to rule. It doesn't seem like his kind of thing.

    I know some people have been unhappy about some elements of this season, but personally I thought it was pretty good.
    Sure you can be picky about small things here and there, but a bit of suspension of disbelief would lead to much more enjoyment, rather than actively looking out for flaws.

    The only thing that's really annoyed me this season is the way travel time is getting more and more compressed. It used to take weeks of travel to get anywhere, and weeks for news of events to spread... but now people and word travels instantly.
    I get that it's mostly driven by the needs of creating exciting narrative for a tv show (24 did the same thing, in season one it'd take 3 episodes to get 10 blocks, by the end they'd cross the whole city twice in an episode) but it can cause inconsistencies and be a bit jarring.
    Then again, the timelines in the books were all kinds of messed up, with different POV events happening well out of sync. Whose to say that what's been happening in one area has been happening concurrently and at the same pace as whats happened in another?

    All in all, I enjoyed the season and I'm still rooting for the ending being evil queen sansa vs evil queen danerys.

  8. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I know the Jon S/T thing was an internet theory, but I doubt I'd have guessed it myself so it'd have been a pretty big surprise. Though they didn't actually confirm it, so I might still not have gotten it yet if I hadn't read about it.
    Hadn't really seen it discussed anywhere but if you have read A Game of Thrones it's made pretty flippin obvious.

    My personal pet theory of Jon and Dany raising mighty armies and clashing over Westeros then getting it on romantically, ice meets fire, steamy romance ensues, seemed to get kiboshed with Jon's death. Now it's looking more likely than ever.

  9. #1089
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus karaquazian's Avatar
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    I reckon tyrion is also a targeryan

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by karaquazian View Post
    I reckon tyrion is also a targeryan
    It's pretty much in the top three theories people have about GoT - indeed it was one of the first ones I heard, back in 2001 or so, so yeah this would be wholly unsurprising. There's a lot of stuff around his conception/birth/etc. that suggests he could be.

  11. #1091
    Moderator Cei's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think so. It's clearly documented that Tyrion's birth killed his mother, Joanna Lannister, and all the hatred the Lannister family have for him is based off this - blaming Tyrion for her death. Plus he's short. Unless the suggestion is that Joanna went off and slept with a Targaryen...which just doesn't fit?
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  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cei View Post
    I honestly don't think so. It's clearly documented that Tyrion's birth killed his mother, Joanna Lannister, and all the hatred the Lannister family have for him is based off this - blaming Tyrion for her death. Plus he's short. Unless the suggestion is that Joanna went off and slept with a Targaryen...which just doesn't fit?
    The suggestion, and you can find the theory in detail at the link below, is that Joanna was raped by the Mad King (we know for certain he did sexually abuse her on at least one occasion, that's not in dispute I take it?), and that this is part of why Tywin was always so angry with Tyrion - because he actually isn't his son (of course then there's some merit in the theory that actually he IS, ironically, and maybe he's the only one - maybe the twins are Targs - I mean, there's the incest and Cersei is on a wildfire kick...).

    There's a ton of other stuff as well: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-li...ly-a-Targaryen

    I'm not sure what you mean by "plus he's short", care to explain? Dwarfism is by no means always genetic, nor is it necessarily dominant when it is. Achondroplasia, which is the form of Dwarfism Tyrion appears to have, is a spontaneous mutation in 80% of cases, rather than being passed from an ancestor who also had it.

  13. #1093
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    Hadn't really seen it discussed anywhere but if you have read A Game of Thrones it's made pretty flippin obvious.
    I have read the books, but I can't say I picked up on it at all.
    In my defence, there's a lot of stuff in the books.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I have read the books, but I can't say I picked up on it at all.
    In my defence, there's a lot of stuff in the books.
    Yeah, there is, and realistically, unless one re-reads the books repeatedly (or thinks about them an awful awful lot), then you're not going to pick up on every hint, bit of foreshadowing, and so on. Especially as there is considerable misdirection. That said R+L = J was a bit more than an "internet theory", because it's really heavily foreshadowed. That and "Maybe Tyrion is a Targaryen" oh and "Gregorstein" were some of the only ones I had before coming across the internet theories (and Gregorstein was very vague in my mind until I read a website which laid it out in detail). There's still room for it not to be true, of course but...

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