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  1. #761
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    I'm not really up on the workings of HBO and all that, but I'm not sure why they felt the need to essentially cram two books into one season.

    I feel like there was easily enough material between The Faith Militant, Dorne and re-introducing the Greyjoys, along with what we had, to fill out 2 seasons. Give them time to introduce and establish people like Arianne and Euron. Make the The Sparrows taking over King's Landing not seem completely stupid. Obviously the counter to that is another season where it feels like people are treading water. General opinion seems to be if they didn't condense Feast and Dragons nothing would've happened, but then both the Dornish and the Ironborn stories have arcs that could last a season, maybe? And damn it, a full-fat version of the Sand Snakes plus Euron hamming it up would have been enough excitement for anyone.

    But then again there could be any number of reasons why this stuff happens. Cast contracts were locked to 7 seasons? They just wanted to get to the end game quicker? Ultimately GRRM said some of those sub-plots aren't really important?

    Anyway, it certainly felt like the weakest season so far for me, with a few bright spots. I'm not sure if the wheels are quite coming off yet, but they need to start being ruthless with the screen time of their main cast. Jaime barging in on the Dorne story was the worst example. He just didn't need to be there. Even in the show he couldn't come up with a good reason why he was going. Bronn is fun but his story should be done and dusted, he's just a walking quip dispenser at this point.

    I will give the show credit for having Wun Wun as a named character, though.

  2. #762
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondDog View Post
    I'm not really up on the workings of HBO and all that, but I'm not sure why they felt the need to essentially cram two books into one season.

    I feel like there was easily enough material between The Faith Militant, Dorne and re-introducing the Greyjoys, along with what we had, to fill out 2 seasons. Give them time to introduce and establish people like Arianne and Euron. Make the The Sparrows taking over King's Landing not seem completely stupid. Obviously the counter to that is another season where it feels like people are treading water. General opinion seems to be if they didn't condense Feast and Dragons nothing would've happened, but then both the Dornish and the Ironborn stories have arcs that could last a season, maybe? And damn it, a full-fat version of the Sand Snakes plus Euron hamming it up would have been enough excitement for anyone.

    But then again there could be any number of reasons why this stuff happens. Cast contracts were locked to 7 seasons? They just wanted to get to the end game quicker? Ultimately GRRM said some of those sub-plots aren't really important?

    Anyway, it certainly felt like the weakest season so far for me, with a few bright spots. I'm not sure if the wheels are quite coming off yet, but they need to start being ruthless with the screen time of their main cast. Jaime barging in on the Dorne story was the worst example. He just didn't need to be there. Even in the show he couldn't come up with a good reason why he was going. Bronn is fun but his story should be done and dusted, he's just a walking quip dispenser at this point.

    I will give the show credit for having Wun Wun as a named character, though.
    Well, I rather liked those books, but I know there were some who thought they were too much trading water and not enough happening. And too many side plots and new characters.
    So we went from 2 books with possibly too much filler, to one season with too much cut out. (Hence my suggestion that they should have made it 15 episodes and expanded on dorne etc..)

    To be fair to them, they were the least well received books, and the idea to split the books geographically was monumentally dumb... so if they'd made the books into 2 seasons then they'd have had big problems with chronology and endings.
    (Option 1 - do one book for each season, but that means everything is out of order and major characters have to sit out one season or the other. And it was dumb in the books).
    (Option 2 - combine the books into 2 chronological seasons, but then the first season is basically just the first half, and has no major events and no big ending).

    I would like to have seen Asha and Euron and the iron islands, but that plus a decent dorne would probably have been too much for even a 15 episode season. it sounds like we might be getting it next season...
    I'd have loved to see a decent Dorne, we a decent Arriane, Quentyn, Doran, Sand Snakes, etc...
    Personally, and I know some disagree, I'd even have liked to have seen Griff & Young Griff and some of the other new additions.

    So, overall, I get their reasoning, but I don't totally agree with it, and I don't think they did a great job. But on the other hand I also get that it was a very tough choice with no right answer and maybe they did about as good a job as they could have under the circumstances. (but I wish they'd done better on Dorne).

    given the criticism they get over their portrayal of women, it's doubly surprising that they dumped Arriane and turned the sand snakes into basically one sexy scene.

  3. #763
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    That's what I mean. The books did do what you're suggesting. The later series of the show actively avoided it.
    That's all the more odd then, as the relatively faithful adaptation of the source material was one of the things that people and critics alike praised in the first seasons. I wonder why HBO lost the confidence to continue in that manner and instead opted for a more traditional tv drama style of dragging character-based storylines out as long as possible, even to the point of inventing new ones. Unsurprisingly this choice also led to an increasing number of contrived shock-moments and silly cliffhangers, as is the usual way American tv dramas are written.
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  4. #764
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Nah I think the books had the problem as well in that moat of it was filler with some strong points but I don't feel they would of worked in the show.

    Dorne was the right call over Iron Islands they are closer to the kings landing story. Needing somebody to be in the Ramsey scenes so we care whats happening there is probably why Sansa is there. Brienne story while nice world building really doesn't do much so I can easily see it cut out. Cerseis storyline is actually a lot more better in the show then it is in the books, same with Jon Snow.

    I would say the showrunners did some right things with the adaptation but lost the ball on executing it all.

  5. #765
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Some people's filler is other people's book. I guess.

    I guess they saw the reaction to the later books where people weren't so keen on some new characters and wanted more Tyrion etc.. and they decided to "fix" that. But I'd say that lead to this season of the show having the opposite problem to the books.

  6. #766
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    Alrighty then.

    Seriously though, I thought the episode suffered from the same things as the last season's finale: It tried to do too much too quickly. And the Dorne stuff was bullshit.
    Last edited by tgd; 25-04-2016 at 03:18 AM.

  7. #767
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    Thank fucking god. Brienne found herself a Stark and didn't lose her in the first 10 seconds. I'm guessing she goes to The Wall and hilarity ensues. More than that though, I'm interested to see how the whole Sansa/Reek thing goes. Sansa has gotten probably the worst luck with men in the history of Westeros with her run of Joffrey, Littlefinger and Ramsay. I mean, The Hound was her Prince Charming. Obviously it's nothing romantic, but now she's with the least dangerous man she could expect to find herself with.

  8. #768
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    It will take some time to find the motivation to watch stuff again.

  9. #769
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Anyone see that scene with Melisandre coming? Think it is tied into Stannis' fate?
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  10. #770
    Lesser Hivemind Node Matt_W's Avatar
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    Some plot holes:
    - How did the Sand Snakes get onto the boat? Why wasn't what-his-name arrested when the boat got into the harbor?
    - Why did the assassins just leave Jon's body in the snow?
    - Braided dude didn't believe that Dany was all that other stuff, but Khal Drogo's widow is instant truth? (And if Khal widows have to go to Vaes Dothraki, then why didn't Drogo's hoard insist that she go there when he died?)

    and the one that bothered me the most:
    - Where the fuck did the hounds go during the fight with Brienne and the Bolton crew?

    Do you think that B&W were angry when their Melisandre reveal was utterly upstaged by the eerily similar scene from The VVitch?

  11. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Anyone see that scene with Melisandre coming? Think it is tied into Stannis' fate?
    I was not surprised, and I don't feel it's tied with Stannis' fate. We already know that the red god has power and that Melisandre wields that power. I think that scene was mainly there to show a certain world weariness in her, or atleast that is what I got from it.
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  12. #772
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Malawi Frontier Guard's Avatar
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    I somehow got it into my head that Melisandre being old was already well known.

  13. #773
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    I've no idea what the next book's title will be, but I'm pretty sure An Onslaught of Plot Holes would be a good fit. Fucking hell, where to start? The Sand Snakes teleporting onto a ship through the magic of writers forgetting their own continuity, yet another coup d'etat, disappearing hounds, that whole incident with Dany that just screams "convenient drama fodder", the two corners of the love triangle conveniently stumbling upon a clue to her whereabouts despite only having a vague idea as to where she might have gone (finding a missing person is hard enough when you know roughly where they are, she could've ended up half-way across the continent depending on how far Drogon could fly), gratuitous scene of Arya getting abused because we definitely didn't get enough of that over the past 5 seasons, and the one genuinely touching scene gets ruined by Jaime's terrible dialogue. At least Brienne is no longer constantly late to the metaphorical party and Sansa and Theon have earned themselves a brief reprieve from being the focus of constant pointless misery and torture porn.

    I really am losing my patience with GoT at this point. The previous season was incredibly obnoxious in its gratuitously grimdarkening things up way past anything remotely coherent, and if anything this looks to be getting even worse. By the way, where the hell have Rickon and Bran, Hodor and OSHA gone?

  14. #774
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    I've no idea what the next book's title will be, but I'm pretty sure An Onslaught of Plot Holes would be a good fit.
    Well, season 5 has pretty much departed from the books already, otherwise I wouldn't be watching this and just wait for the pre-order to finally arrive :P
    And, without delving into book-spoiler territory too much, I do feel that D&D have missed a great deal of potential in Doran Martell's character. GRRM made a big deal of characters that are not at all impressive physically nonetheless being extremely powerfull in their own (underestimated) right, but here he is simply... just as weak as he looks.
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  15. #775
    Activated Node gordianblot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    - Why did the assassins just leave Jon's body in the snow?
    - Braided dude didn't believe that Dany was all that other stuff, but Khal Drogo's widow is instant truth? (And if Khal widows have to go to Vaes Dothraki, then why didn't Drogo's hoard insist that she go there when he died?)
    Thorne never had any intention of hiding what he did. That's why he stood in front of everybody and did his "Yup, I did it and here's why..." speech. Also, I feel like hiding the body would kind of diminish their "Traitor" sign :P

    I think the Khal believed Dany was foreign nobility; he just didn't care because their whole culture is based around conquering foreign peoples. And if I remember right, Khal wives are supposed to get themselves to Vaes Dothraki. Dany's Khalasar didn't make her because the only ones that stuck around didn't have anywhere else to go.

  16. #776
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I do feel that D&D have missed a great deal of potential in Doran Martell's character. GRRM made a big deal of characters that are not at all impressive physically nonetheless being extremely powerfull in their own (underestimated) right, but here he is simply... just as weak as he looks.
    Yes. I don't know if what happens in the show will also happen in the books, but Doran Martell seemed much more powerful in the books, despite his physical weakness. I can't imagine the books offing him quite like that.

    That said, I thought it was an ok re-introduction to the series. It was mainly just catching me back up on what everyone had been doing at the end of last series, and tying off a few loose ends.
    (It's interesting looking back a few posts on this thread and seeing what I said before. But, yeah, they've undermined a lot of the impact of anything in Dorne by skipping/changing so much of what happened there last season. We don't really care about Myrcella or whats-his-name the prince because we never saw them, and the sand snakes finally did something, but it still came off as weak).

    I didn't notice or care about the hounds bit, but the series has kinda veered into the kind of generic fantasy where Brienne can come charging in and defeat 5 guys in combat. In the old GoT books anyone who did that would probably trip over a tree root, accidentally cut themselves with their own sword, and then, even if they survived such a fight (unlikely), die of septicemia a few days later.

    It's weird to be in the situation of not knowing what's going to happen next, after so long being behind the books.

  17. #777
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I didn't notice or care about the hounds bit, but the series has kinda veered into the kind of generic fantasy where Brienne can come charging in and defeat 5 guys in combat.
    She didn't. She, Podrick and Theon did though.
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  18. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I didn't notice or care about the hounds bit, but the series has kinda veered into the kind of generic fantasy where Brienne can come charging in and defeat 5 guys in combat. In the old GoT books anyone who did that would probably trip over a tree root, accidentally cut themselves with their own sword, and then, even if they survived such a fight (unlikely), die of septicemia a few days later.
    That did not remotely happen... did you see the show or read a synopsis? She spent half the fight on the floor and killed what, 2-3 of them? Somewhat clumsily. Which is well within the bounds of reality given her superior size/reach, training, experience and armament.

  19. #779
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    I actually had no problem with that fight in that sense too: One of the plot points of Brienne's story in the books is that she has never killed anyone untill she fights three who lead her into a trap. In this fight, she has the initiative, an ally (two, actually, although Theon only gets in later) and more experience with killing. It's not outside the realm of possibiliy, esp. for someone who has shown to be one of the deadliest in-universe fighters since the death of Targaryan's Kingsguard and an universe where superiour skill trumps numbers - which is established as early as The Tower of Joy.
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  20. #780
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Yeah, the fight didn't bother me either. The hounds though. Did they run off? Did they shapeshift into snow? My first thought when Brienne came bumbling in was "Huh, once those dogs get loose, they'll eat Sansa's face off". But her face is still very much on (which was apparent from watching the trailers, but still). The fuck did they go? Also, Sansa and Theon/Reek are icicles aftar that river walk.

    But more importantly, the whole Dorne plotline is a load of bullshit and Dany doesn't really interest me anymore, so the episode basically just spent a lot of time not focusing on what I wanted to see.

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