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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Conspiracy theorists and theories...

    Flat earth, 9/11, moon landings, HAARP...have you ever encountered conspiracy theorists and discussed (or tried to) with them ? Do you think it's hopeless ? More braodly speaking, what's your reaction to conspiracy theories and their seemingly endless supply of believers on the Internet ?

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Hi everyone I used to be a conspiracy theorist and used to believe that 9/11 was an inside job and that we faked the moon landings.

    It was in my teenage years when I first started getting into watching those kind of videos and made me convinced that the evidence they were giving me was right. I discussed it with some other people that made me feel I was not alone and that the government was evil. To me now it just feels like I was seeing the corruption and stuff but in a more crazy way.

    I really don't know how I stopped, going to university gaining good friends and partying and just caring about that helped. I remember once having an argument with someone about it and then realizin to myself I really don't care about this anymore. Eventually I came to realize that the world is to chaotic to really have someone mastermindeding everything. Also that a lot of those theories are pretty anti-semetic which I felt horrible that I once believed them.

    So I guess my answer is yes, try to speak to them always because as I show it can change them in small ways.

    In fact here is a podcast talking about that in terms of racism:

    http://loveandradio.org/2014/02/the-silver-dollar/

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    The problem is that every time I tried to speak with conspirationnists I just gave up in the end. Like with the flat-earthers ; you can try every demonstration you want, it will always end up either with "yeah, but my intuition says elsewhere" or "you math is wrong because I say so". Even if you bring them in the ISS to show them the Earth, they'll still say "yeah, but it was an hologram and I was on drugs".

    Which is a shame, because I think what motivates most conspiracy theorists - that you shouldn't trust everything you're told and rather try to understand things yourself, to make your own opinion - is a sane thing, but then they start following something else blindly...

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    What exactly is the conspiracy about the flat earth story? I get that some people believe this, but many people believe silly things that aren't (alleged) conspiracies.

    In a more general sense, a blanket dismissal of conspiracy theories seems unwarranted, especially when they involve people and organisations who have in the past clearly conspired. But there is a difference between 'Clinton is a reptilian that's why she doesn't sweat' and 'the CIA can't really be trusted after its history of deception and lies'. For example, it may have once been a conspiracy theory to suggest that Microsoft helped the NSA circumvent its encryption, but leaks have since shown this to be true. Why should we assume their claims are true now?

    What's my reaction? Shrugging it off, I suppose. It also depends on how easy it is to spot the nonsensical. If it's less obvious I might do a quick search to see what various people say about a story or event, and based on the sources it's often possible to get a pretty good idea what's going on. Also, being content not to know removes the need to pick a side.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    What exactly is the conspiracy about the flat earth story? I get that some people believe this, but many people believe silly things that aren't (alleged) conspiracies.
    Every time the NASA (or ESA, or whatever else) show a new discovery, or simply photos from space, you have people claiming that they are all fake, that the Earth is flat and we never went to space. They can be associated to moon landing deniers, but not always. Not only do they claim something stupid (a bit like Electric Universe theorists) but they also claim, most of the time, that governements and space agencies are hiding the truth because...well it ain't clear, even for them. Most of them are affiliated with creationism, so it all blends in a "modern science is all lies, it has been invented by the illuminati/masons/reptilians to hide the fact that the Bible is right and must be taken litteraly" trip. I'm not kidding (I wish I was) they do exist, and they are very vocal on every NASA facebook post/video and more broadly speaking on the net.

    But there is a difference between 'Clinton is a reptilian that's why she doesn't sweat' and 'the CIA can't really be trusted after its history of deception and lies'.
    That's part of the problem. Most conspiracy theories are so stupid they hide the fact that conspiracies do exist, and many things were called "conspiracy theories" before being proven true. The perverse result of this is that perfectly serious people (like in France some scientists who study the effects of GMO) are more often than not relegated to the crowd of conspiracy nutjobs while their arguments and findings should be at least seriously examined.

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    There is a problem with the term and associations around it. In general calling someone's opinion a conspiracy theory is about rubbishing that persons point of view, and while that is sometimes a good thing, we need to keep in mind the role that government agencies play in 'feeding' the conspiracy theory stories we come across. And no that is not a conspiracy theory, but a general good example of black-ops type propaganda.

    There is a fantastic example of this, and it was covered in the brilliant 'The Power of Nightmares' documentaries. Around the time that the Neo-Conservative personel were taking hold of key strategic positions within the American governments administration during the Regan years, and towards the Bush era, there was a change of the head of the NSA (or CIA i forget which post exactly), and they came from the right-republican cut and wanted sweeping changes, in particular in relation to a book they had read about Russia's increasing power. That book had been created by the NSA (CIA) as part of a black-op propaganda drive and someone had to point that out to the new incoming head. The full details of that are in the documentary series i mentioned.

    Anyway the point is to make clear that one man's conspiracy theory is sometimes just another man's black-ops exercise, the whole right-wing/republican/Conservative anti Global Warming thing is a perfect example imho. Many on the 'right' see Global Warming as a conspiracy theory, even when the clear scientific evidence says otherwise. That is how powerful propaganda is, and how conspiracy theory itself is a murky term we need to use with caution.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    My favorite is MK Ultra, which is often directly blamed for the Unibomber. A domestic terrorist driven to violence by state funded mind control torture.

    Reads like early Clancy, so unrealistic.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 08-01-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Just going to leave this here (I think it has been posted before on a similar topic in the past): Monster Talk Podcast, July 6th 2016: The Episode They Don’t Want You To Know About (episode 107).

    Some interesting bits about the psychology behind conspiracy theories, worth a listen imo.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Xfiles taught me: NEVER EVER TRUST ANYTHING YOU SEE! aaa

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordShadoko View Post
    ... many things were called "conspiracy theories" before being proven true. The perverse result of this is that perfectly serious people (like in France some scientists who study the effects of GMO) are more often than not relegated to the crowd of conspiracy nutjobs while their arguments and findings should be at least seriously examined.
    Indeed, and this becomes all the more problematic by the way 'consensus' has been elevated to the status of evidence in a lot media and politics. That's not to say the truth is in the middle of two positions. After all, someone can simply be wrong (genuinely or because of an agenda) - but the majority can be wrong as well (for similar reasons), and has been many times. 'Nine out of ten dentists agree' might be fine in a commercial, but it makes for dubious science.

    On the other hand, you can also get situations where organisations have lost so much credibility that they are not believed even when they are right. Credibility is easily lost and hard to gain. This might not be such a bad thing, but there is a tendency to substitute a previously held belief for a similar blind faith in something else. In media you often see this with readers and viewers of self-described 'alternative media', which don't necessarily have a better track record than traditional corporate or public media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    My favorite is MK Ultra (...) state funded mind control torture.
    This is actually a nice example of how real conspiracies can be made to look ridiculous by connecting them to a silly story. The MKUltra program and all the involuntary medical experiments that came with it was, after all, very real.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    This is actually a nice example of how real conspiracies can be made to look ridiculous by connecting them to a silly story. The MKUltra program and all the involuntary medical experiments that came with it was, after all, very real.
    I am somewhat of the subject of this threads mockery mind, I don't believe that the moon landings are entirely legitimate. The long lives of the astronauts, the lack of radiation shielding, the lack of repetition of equivalent trips two generations later and the signal to noise on the conspiracy.

    It just smells wrong to me.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    The moon landing was independently confirmed by several parties, including the USSR. Either all of those nations would have been duped or would have been part of a conspiracy to dupe the general public, which, considering the USSR being the USSR, would be ludicrous.

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Governments confirmed that Iraq had WMD's too, I'm not saying I'd get into a drag out knock out fight about it, it just sets off my bullshit-o-meter. Unfortunately, the tools for the falsification of information are so fantastic thanks to the film industry that I'll likely never be completely satisfied.

    Had all the astronauts all died from allthecancer I likely wouldn't even blink. I'm not even really suggesting it didn't happen, but that the chaps who are in the history books were not the ones who did it, because the secret heroes died of supercancerturnedtosoupitwasreallygross.

    *shrugs*
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  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Besides, there was litteraly hundreds of thousands of people working on the Apollo project. Even if a mere tenth knew that it was fake, it's still thousands of people. Despite the highest security you can imagine, there was lots of leaks on the Manhattan project, for example. And yet no one, no scientist, no astronaut, no engineer, would have talked ? That's a bit hard to swallow.

    The long lives of the astronauts, the lack of radiation shielding, the lack of repetition of equivalent trips two generations later and the signal to noise on the conspiracy.
    Not all astronauts are irradiated to death, mind you. In fact, I don't have the figures in my mind, so I won't say anything stupid, but I'm fairly sure your average worker in our godawful French nuclear plants is more irradiated in a year than an Apollon astronaut, and they don't all die from cancer. As for the non-repetability - why for ? The moon landings had zero economic or scientific interest. They were purely for show, for the sake of "america fuck yeah". We did not send astronauts back on the Moon for the very same reason we didn't send people on Mars or created huge orbital stations : because it costs a lot in money and lives (don't forget that three Apollo astronauts were burnt to death) and robots do it better anyway.

    I think I'm open-minded enough to accept the fact that the moon landings never happened IF I see some convincing evidence. So far I haven't seen any. Besides, moon landing deniers more often than not pile up arguments whithout understanding that it's actually detrimental to their cause. Like, who the hell forgets to take the projectors out of a photo ?

    In fact I did not expect this thread to become a discussion on wether X or Y is true or false, but, whatever...
    Last edited by LordShadoko; 08-01-2017 at 04:26 PM.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Discussing conspiracy theorists without discussing conspiracy is equivalent to trying to separate racists and racism.
    I am once again writing a blog, vaguely about playing games the wrong way
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  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    That's...absolutely true, in fact.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus GameCat's Avatar
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    Ah, the best conspiracy theorists are these people who think that when you make a worldwide hoax you also overlook major things that can be debunked by people with basic knowledge.

  18. #18
    Network Hub celt's Avatar
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    Please at least skim this material and see if you can deny that it describes at least one (if not a hundred) examples of coordinated and horrific abuses of power:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethi..._United_States

    Do you know what you can call the mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters who were directly or indirectly affected by these things?

    Conspiracy theorists.

    What would you do if you caught a glimpse that these things were happening to a family member, or yourself? You'd be stuck trying to understand something that shouldn't have to be understood. You'd think and say a whole LOT of gibberish before you could ever grasp the situation. Combined with your horrific situation you'll also have to fight uphill against pretty much everyone you know.

    Luckily this only occurred in the past and only in the USA, right? It's over. Nothing like this is happening where you live in this day and age.

    I don't intend to be mean. Every dumb or blind idea that I could accuse someone of holding is very likely an idea that I also used to hold. Educate yourself and don't stop at such flimsy barriers as "No one would do anything like that" or "If that was happening, someone would have to talk."

  19. #19
    Lesser Hivemind Node Det. Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I am somewhat of the subject of this threads mockery mind, I don't believe that the moon landings are entirely legitimate. The long lives of the astronauts, the lack of radiation shielding, the lack of repetition of equivalent trips two generations later and the signal to noise on the conspiracy.

    It just smells wrong to me.
    The radiation inside the moon orbit isn't that high, there is a zone with a lot of radiation (I don't remember the name) but at the speed the ship was moving through it the astronauts essentially got the equivalent to an X-ray when passing through it, hardly mortal.
    "I pity the poor shades confined to the euclidean prison that is sanity." - Grant Morrison
    "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff." - The Doctor

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LordShadoko's Avatar
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    there is a zone with a lot of radiation (I don't remember the name)
    The Van Allen belt ?

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