Page 1 of 22 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 436
  1. #1
    Moderator alms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    8,180

    Europeans: how is your country and ppl dealing with the new peaks in migratory flows?

    Last edited by alms; 28-08-2015 at 10:32 PM.
    The Onward March of Bundles - filling your backlog since 1911
    Stalk my Steam profile, or follow my fight against the backlog on HowLongToBeat.

    "You take the Klingon's detached hand"

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    Realistically everything is going fine in the UK. People's actual reaction is that they are irrationally losing their shit, presumably because they are racist.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    14,377
    I'm just glad UKIP has had a good airing to shame themselves, if they had been subtler and less confident everyone was as hateful as them they could have been hugely dangerous... Thank goodness most racists are thick as pig shit.

    The UK will be good until its fine, fine until it's crap and then people will stop wanting to come here, so it'll normalise, but I imagine very slowly.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,725
    This is the true failure of the war on terror, we tried to invade the countries and now we have all this unstability in a lot of other countries because the terrorists got bigger not smaller.

    And now we are complaining and making people who are only wanting to survive less human. Its disgusting how we are treating the thought of these people. Thry are like you and I only there country is the one that they need to escape from. Yet us in Britain just see it as they coming here to steal our jobs and money.

    I sometimes despair at our lack of humanity.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fanbuoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The Capital of Scandinavia
    Posts
    1,347
    Long one on Sweden:

    Sweden has been the largest per capita recipient of refugees in the EU for some time now, second to Germany in total number. Second place in the per capita list is Hungary, at about half our numbers. Compared to the UK, we receive about 17 times as many per capita. There has been a noticable change in attitude among the population here. Immigration is now considered the most important political issue.

    It's very polarized, but the immigration critical party, the Sweden Democrats, (for the sake of objectivity, I won't call them racist, but they have roots in neo-nazism) has increased dramatically in recent years. From passing the 4% barrier to get seats in the parliament in the 2010 election, polls now put them at around 20%, with one recent poll naming them the largest party in Sweden. Both traditional political blocks refuse discussions with SD, but with neither block having a majority of votes, SD have a pivotal role. They used that power to vote down the government's budget last year, causing quite a bit of political turmoil. As a response, the traditional parties made a hugely criticized agreement, dubbed the December Agreement, basically making the smaller block lay down their votes in order for the larger to be able to rule in a minority.

    Lately, some liberal/conservative parties have started shifting to less generous immigration policies. Most polls I've heard referenced put the number of Swedes who are critical to the level of immigration at about 40%. Although SD have sworn off their origins and claim to not be racist, but nationalist, their roots in neo-nazism is probably the main reason why so many people are still hesitant to vote for them.

    Populists will always find audiences in troubled times, but I honestly don't think theses ones will go away. There have been an incredible amount of scandals and inner conflicts within SD, but their numbers are steadily increasing anyway. With every point they increase, they're perceived as more legitimate by previously hesitant voters, thereby bringing new ones in.

    Personally, I think we have an obligation to take care of people in need, but that there has to be more solidarity among EU countries concerning where to house the refugees. Our systems are failing, we can't handle all the immigrants coming here, but we can't turn them away either.
    Last edited by Fanbuoy; 28-08-2015 at 09:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Network Hub Pulstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    135
    People are coming on leaky boats in such large numbers, and the real climate change hasn't even begun decimating the southern hemisphere yet. Let's not forget the Syrian uprising began as a byproduct of climate change, and as much I sympathise with the colossal plight, the refugees aren't fit for european life. So either Europe gets to change, accepts other ethnicities (which is rather difficult), or more strife is going to occur. There's already a generation or two of "disillusioned" youth that seeks to destroy Europe either illicitly or explicitly, and this influx of refugees isn't going to help. Europe hasn't managed to assimilate those people. I'm not talking as a Eurocentrist, I'm of mixed race myself (Yes, race is real, sorry EJO I love you but the DNA evidence is conclusive, that doesn't mean we have to separate the races or anything) so my outlook isn't "racist" if you will. Supporting groups like Daesh as a naturalised European citizen should be an act of treason.

    The root of the problem is that people in those countries can't govern themselves. After centuries of colonisation, backwardness and rigid social structures millions of people are finding themselves thrown into utter chaos and for their despair to reach leaky-boat levels is alarming indeed. Who will fix the problems of the middle east and sub-saharan Africa? Saudi Arabia could have spent those billions developing Yemen instead of bombing it, but now they find themselves in a pinch thanks to plummeting oil prices. If the west can contribute technology and aid (that doesn't fall into dictators' pockets) to help alleviate the effects of climate change it could help maintain the flow of climate refugees. Victims of political violence on the other hand, definitely efforts are lacklustre if not downright complicit to their suffering.

    Last edited by Pulstar; 28-08-2015 at 11:48 AM.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    Quote Originally Posted by Pulstar View Post
    People are coming on leaky boats in such large numbers, and the real climate change hasn't even begun decimating the southern hemisphere yet. Let's not forget the Syrian uprising began as a byproduct of climate change, and as much I sympathise with the colossal plight, the refugees aren't fit for european life. So either Europe gets to change, accepts other ethnicities (which is rather difficult), or more strife is going to occur. There's already a generation or two of "disillusioned" youth that seeks to destroy Europe either illicitly or explicitly, and this influx of refugees isn't going to help. Europe hasn't managed to assimilate those people. I'm not talking as a Eurocentrist, I'm of mixed race myself (Yes, race is real, sorry EJO I love you but the DNA evidence is conclusive, that doesn't mean we have to separate the races or anything) so my outlook isn't "racist" if you will. Supporting groups like Daesh as a naturalised European citizen should be an act of treason.

    The root of the problem is that people in those countries can't govern themselves. After centuries of colonisation, backwardness and rigid social structures millions of people are finding themselves thrown into utter chaos and for their despair to reach leaky-boat levels is alarming indeed. Who will fix the problems of the middle east and sub-saharan Africa? Saudi Arabia could have spent those billions developing Yemen instead of bombing it, but now they find themselves in a pinch thanks to plummeting oil prices. If the west can contribute technology and aid (that doesn't fall into dictators' pockets) to help alleviate the effects of climate change it could help maintain the flow of climate refugees. Victims of political violence on the other hand, definitely efforts are lacklustre if not downright complicit to their suffering.
    I'm unclear on what makes someone "unfit" for european life. I'm pretty sure obeying the law and paying your taxes is pretty much the only qualification. Also it's not that hard for cultures to change to accept new people. It did take a couple decades in the UK after the windrush etc. But British-Indian or British-Caribbean or British-Chinese are all doing fine. There is still systemic problems with racism, but British culture has shifted around them especially in the cities. Just taking cuisine as an important part of culture and there's now nothing more British than going for a curry or the Notting Hill Carnival etc. So yeah I don't think it's that difficult to integrate and for culture to change to meet the immigrants.

    Well unless something radical has happened in science recently, no there isn't any genetic evidence of "race" in the fucking slightest. There's a reason biologists don't use race as a categorisation.

  8. #8
    Network Hub Pulstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    135
    Not gonna argue about race, just wanted to clarify that my viewpoint wasn't racist. If anything it seems I'm the only person who posts migrant tragic stories of my social media circles. Most people don't care.

    And those smugglers really deserve the death penalty for their crimes.. They should start hunting them down with military-grade weaponry.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    10,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Pulstar View Post
    Not gonna argue about race, just wanted to clarify that my viewpoint wasn't racist.
    If you have to argue that "I'm not racist, but..." then guess what.

    Funny thing is, when they're not spouting hilariously offensive slogans, the right-wingers in various European (and American) elections tend to emphasize how much they think immigrants won't integrate into the local "culture." It never was a terribly compelling argument, but it's pretty much the only one they got that's not automatically censored.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Serbia
    Posts
    2,411
    'Round these parts it's kind of so-so. A park near my old grammar school has been spontaneously converted into a refugee camp (that only seems to exist when an MP is around), but we're mostly a transit nation and there are no real problems for the residents (migrant-wise), despite what the politicians claim. Which just makes it more amusing that Hungary is throwing a shitfit and putting up a (hilariously ineffectual) border fence, purely for a ratings boost of course. Gotta love them right-wing governments, truly they are a rich source of unintentional comedy.

    Looking past all the point-scoring, it infuriates me how little the people ultimately responsible for this crap (the various NATO members who were involved in these crises starting) do to actually solve the problems they created. If you're going to recklessly start proxy civil wars to mildly annoy the geopolitical hated enemy of the moment, you could at least try and own up to it, and try to help the people who ended up caught in the crossfire. Or maybe I'm just expecting too much from countries that managed to convince the whole world that blowing up entire cities and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people for no reason beyond "fuck those guys" was somehow laudable.

  11. #11
    Network Hub Pulstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    135
    The war on terror and axes of evil failed because America led them. Anyone else noticed how America fucks up every war it starts one way or another, especially after the military-industrial complex had taken its roots and wouldn't budge? Yea, let Trump kick Daesh's ass, but he won't take a single refugee from the ensuing hellfire. Fucking hypocrites.

    I hope I'm wrong about cultural integration. The white races are on the decline everywhere, it's mostly their fault, there's no grand-scale white genocide conspiracy, the birth rates speak for themselves. The southern hemisphere will outbreed the north. Did anyone A Troublesome Inheritance by the way? There seems to be a PC train against any arguing pro-race issues scientifically, and as mentioned I have no bone in this debate, as a Eurasian. But Europe's woes are more cultural than racial at this point.

    Postscript: Contrary to popular belief many Arabs have racist views as well, towards darker skinned people and Asians. Heck even black Africans have racist attitudes too. Much of that thinking can be chalked to outdated cultural views.
    Last edited by Pulstar; 28-08-2015 at 03:26 PM.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus karaquazian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    england
    Posts
    1,884
    by people voting for some old etonian former stock broker that drinks beer to "rebel against the establishment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    If you have to argue that "I'm not racist, but..." then guess what.

    Funny thing is, when they're not spouting hilariously offensive slogans, the right-wingers in various European (and American) elections tend to emphasize how much they think immigrants won't integrate into the local "culture." It never was a terribly compelling argument, but it's pretty much the only one they got that's not automatically censored.
    It's especially hilarious with right wing Americans. If you're been all right wing about things, white people have the least right of any to be there. Black people were taken there against their will and a large % of black Americans, have native American blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I'm unclear on what makes someone "unfit" for european life. I'm pretty sure obeying the law and paying your taxes is pretty much the only qualification. Also it's not that hard for cultures to change to accept new people. It did take a couple decades in the UK after the windrush etc. But British-Indian or British-Caribbean or British-Chinese are all doing fine. There is still systemic problems with racism, but British culture has shifted around them especially in the cities. Just taking cuisine as an important part of culture and there's now nothing more British than going for a curry or the Notting Hill Carnival etc. So yeah I don't think it's that difficult to integrate and for culture to change to meet the immigrants.

    Well unless something radical has happened in science recently, no there isn't any genetic evidence of "race" in the fucking slightest. There's a reason biologists don't use race as a categorisation.
    British cities are more segregated by religion than race. I'm thinking in the north here though it may be different in London, but here in Leeds, even what ate traditionally thought of as black neighborhoods are only like 60% black at most, its pretty same in Sheffield and Manchester too. There's certainly lots of integration between white and black Christians / agnostics / secularists, over 50% of black people in UK are in mixed race relationships (including me). Whereas there are neighborhoods that could be described as muslim areas and they are pretty much wholy Muslim areas.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 29-08-2015 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Triple post!

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    Quote Originally Posted by Pulstar View Post
    The war on terror and axes of evil failed because America led them. Anyone else noticed how America fucks up every war it starts one way or another, especially after the military-industrial complex had taken its roots and wouldn't budge? Yea, let Trump kick Daesh's ass, but he won't take a single refugee from the ensuing hellfire. Fucking hypocrites.
    I think you'll find everyone fuck's up eventually with wars they start. Especially supposed interventionist wars. War is generally a massive fuck up from start to finish to reconstruction afterwards.

    I hope I'm wrong about cultural integration. The white races are on the decline everywhere, it's mostly their fault, there's no grand-scale white genocide conspiracy, the birth rates speak for themselves. The southern hemisphere will outbreed the north. Did anyone A Troublesome Inheritance by the way? There seems to be a PC train against any arguing pro-race issues scientifically, and as mentioned I have no bone in this debate, as a Eurasian. But Europe's woes are more cultural than racial at this point.

    Postscript: Contrary to popular belief many Arabs have racist views as well, towards darker skinned people and Asians. Heck even black Africans have racist attitudes too. Much of that thinking can be chalked to outdated cultural views.
    I'm not sure the number of white people in the world is even really worthy of comment.

    From my understanding that book was written by a science journalist and all the scientists whose evidence he used wrote a public letter saying he was talking out of his arse. So I've not bothered reading it, but I don't think that's a PC train. That's just science not backing up the concept of race, as there's no evidence.

  14. #14
    Network Hub Pulstar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    135
    Speaking of America, how embarrassing is it that those marines were the ones who took down that deranged Moroccan boy on that Paris-bound train? :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    From my understanding that book was written by a science journalist and all the scientists whose evidence he used wrote a public letter saying he was talking out of his arse. So I've not bothered reading it, but I don't think that's a PC train. That's just science not backing up the concept of race, as there's no evidence.

    Fair enough, I'll have to read other books about the subject as well, and make up my mind. Not that it matters, just for personal perspective.


    In case anyone was wondering about my EJO remark.
    Last edited by Pulstar; 28-08-2015 at 03:35 PM.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    Quote Originally Posted by karaquazian View Post
    British cities are more segregated by religion than race. I'm thinking in the north here though it may be different in London, but here in Leeds, even what ate traditionally thought of as black neighborhoods are only like 60% black at most, its pretty same in Sheffield and Manchester too. There's certainly lots of integration between white and black Christians / agnostics / secularists, over 50% of black people in UK are in mixed race relationships (including me). Whereas there are neighborhoods that could be described as muslim areas and they are pretty much wholy Muslim areas.
    I think it can be best summed up as "eh it's a mixed bag". It depends on a whole large set of factors on how concentrated groups are. One of them is definitely religion (or more specifically observance), another is originating country, that country's history with the UK, language, economic status, exactly when the community moved to the UK etc. It's hard to pin down anything really exact.

    It's a puerile point but commonwealth countries playing cricket and already speaking british english did mean they integrated quicker. Then certain observances of various religions encourage marrying within the religion so those communities tend to congregate around places of worship, but the levels of observance vary greatly. Also communities that have migrated more recently tend to be poorer and speak less english so again quite naturally congregate together, but that fades over time as people move about and economic trends change.

    Then there's also business based things, so where something like The Curry Mile in Manchester exists you would oddly enough expect there to be large Bangladeshi, Indian and Pakistani communities in the area and stick there.

    TLDR: You have to take each community as it's own case.

    EDIT: OK Edward James Olmos is even fucking more amazing than I thought.
    Last edited by Zephro; 28-08-2015 at 03:51 PM.

  16. #16
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dutchland
    Posts
    4,357
    EDIT: OK Edward James Olmos is even fucking more amazing than I thought.
    Well... Yeah!

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Well... Yeah!
    That's the level of my surprise though as I didn't think he could be any more amazing.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus L_No's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,158
    Here in the Netherlands we've seen an increase in the number of refugees/migrants that have arrived here. Every now and then there's turmoil about a plan to house migrants near small villages (1400 refugees versus 250 inhabitants), and there has been a lot of political discussion, but so far we haven't seen unmanagable numbers. The fact that refugees get priority access to social housing compared to natives rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I guess the political views on the issue from left to right are comparable to the ones already mentioned in this thread, but would I hesitate to call some of the more rightwing views "racist", as seems to have been done in this thread a few times (of course I cannot compare between various countries, so I cannot say something useful about political discourse in other countries). Of course, we have our fair share of fearmongering, but the sentiment that Europe cannot take in all refugees that want to come here is widespread, as is the view that care needs to be taken that immigrants who end up staying adapt to the culture here in some way.
    Want to add me on Steam? Steam name: Mr. Gert

    Guild Wars 2 characters: Norgothus (Norn Necromancer), Maggrivo (Charr Warrior)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Never go full Wulf.

  19. #19
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dutchland
    Posts
    4,357
    The fact that refugees get priority access to social housing compared to natives rubs a lot of people the wrong way.
    Do we have that much homeless people in dire need for housing then?

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    2,906
    People complain about that here. Though that's mostly as the press and the public have no fucking idea what the difference between migrants and refugees are. Because they are racist fuckheads.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •