Page 1 of 52 1231151 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 1038
  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,950

    A fact indeed: UK votes to leave EU [was: any facts on the EU ref?]

    Just any at all, really. Any information, data, y'know. So far, all I know is that it's happening, and a massive bunch of wankers want me to vote 'remain' and a different massive bunch of wankers want me to vote 'exit'. As it stands, I'm looking at spoiling my ballot in protest, but I don't like that option either.
    I wrote a fantasy novel, called Lavender! Perhaps you'd like to read it.

  2. #2
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Dutchland
    Posts
    5,084
    Didn't Scotland vote for exiting about two years ago? What happened there?

    I live in the Netherlands, so I don't have a good view on the whole brexit thing for obvious reasons. One thing I know is this: GB's economy has been a part of the EU economy for a while now. It hasn't been a particularely big part of the EU economy (as it imports more then it exports), but a lot of companies and factories that run over in the UK exist there because the EU has made it easy for foreign companies (such as BMW, who runs that Mini factory that was on a BBC live documentary a few months ago) to open up shop in the UK. The UK has been part of the EU for decades now, and it's economies are intertwined: Thatcherism would look rather differently if the UK had not been part of the EU at that time. These are changes that took years to make, and it's not feasible to expect that these changes can be reverted overnight without some sort of economic upheaval. The Brexit camp seems to think that it can mitigate that since the UK can easily make new trade deals with other countries. Barrack Obama certainly does not feel the same way.
    Thing is that you can't tell. No country has ever left the EU, and no country that may leave the EU will have the same circumstances as the UK does.

    From a foreign perspective, I honestly wouldn't tell. The UK has always taken a bit of a "We want the pleasures but not the burdens" approach to the EU - okay, everyone has, but the UK more then many - so the UK leaving the EU would mean that we can create a more effecient EU, which is a good thing. It also means that I am then no longer part of the same political institution as David Cameron, which would make me sleep a bit easier at night knowing his stances towards non-human mammals. But that's the thing: On the whole I believe the EU is a net positive and can be more of a positive if it is not divided, and the UK stands in the way of that. On the other hand, the EU also stands in the way of a few plans of the UK politicians who want to leave, so...

    Ultimately the question then boils down to this: Do you want things to continue as they are now? Or do you trust the UK's politicians to guide you towards an uncertain future? I know that I don't trust the UK's politicians, but I do not live in the UK and my whole opinion would be completely different if I lived there. I don't sample the news you do.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 02-06-2016 at 06:58 AM.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,950
    What's david cameron's position on non-human mammals?

    Fuck 'em. ;)

    As a slightly less low-hanging fruit answer, my issue is that both campaigns are being run by essentially, two different branches of the same people. Racists, aristos and money on one side, racists, aristos, and money on the other. Both of them make the same arguments - remaining will destroy our economy, leaving will destroy our economy. I trust both sides only in that I assume everything they say is 100% lies without even the slightest regard for or crumb of the truth, and neither of them has said anything that speaks to me at all, and the mind rebels at the prospect of giving my vote to either of them. There's such a thing as holding your nose when you vote, but even that won't save you from a septic tank. At the moment, I've been favouring remain simply because ideologically, I hate borders and nations and all that shite, but I also hear that so much of europe's upper echelons are unelected and don't really give a hoot about people, and you can't even vote them out, so I don't really like that. The whole thing's just a headache. Thanks for taking the time to write all that, I feel at least vaguely more coherent now.
    Last edited by Serenegoose; 02-06-2016 at 07:07 AM.
    I wrote a fantasy novel, called Lavender! Perhaps you'd like to read it.

  4. #4
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    498
    Full Fact are checking all the bumpf coming out of both sides. Up to you to decide if you trust their analysis, though.
    Open-faced sandwiches are upon you whether you would risk it or not.

  5. #5
    Moderator Ethelred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Bristawl
    Posts
    1,017
    The unelected part of the EU is essentially equivalent to the UK civil service in that they are also unelected but can only suggest legislation but not implement it without it being ratified by the EU or our own parliament. So I really don't buy that "unelected bureaucrat line. I mean, with a first past the post system we are hardly a shining beacon of democracy ourselves.

    Bigger wankers are Boris, Farage and worst of all Gove, which is really saying something cos whilst Osborne is a bigger wanker than all of them, combined none can stand against them.

    Hope that helps!

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,950
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbill View Post
    Full Fact are checking all the bumpf coming out of both sides. Up to you to decide if you trust their analysis, though.
    That's very helpful, thank you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethelred View Post
    The unelected part of the EU is essentially equivalent to the UK civil service in that they are also unelected but can only suggest legislation but not implement it without it being ratified by the EU or our own parliament.
    Indeed, so I'm reading. Well, that's starting to clear up something I wasn't sure of before.
    I wrote a fantasy novel, called Lavender! Perhaps you'd like to read it.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,296
    If nothing else, you might consider the fact that a lot of people in the UK now would have to leave. Unless you have a very narrow circle of friends, associates and co-workers, this will probably include people you like. We'd lose friends and some really good people we work with (like our trainer, who is an amazing person, and the only non-lazy/stupid-shit trainer I've ever met).

    Also, the whole "both sides are lying equally" deal is pretty quickly disproven by fact-checking. Leave is lying wildly more (Priti Patel makes Cameron look like Abe Lincoln, for example and BoJo is straight-up repeating lies like "EU money funds bullfighting"). Both sides are childishly fear-mongering equally, but not lying equally.
    Last edited by LexW; 02-06-2016 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethelred View Post

    Bigger wankers are Boris, Farage and worst of all Gove, which is really saying something cos whilst Osborne is a bigger wanker than all of them, combined none can stand against them.
    Don't forget you can add George Galloway to that list.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    No country has ever left the EU, and no country that may leave the EU will have the same circumstances as the UK does.
    Greenland left in 1985, but it's a self-governing territory of Denmark rather than an independent country and so different from the UK there's really no point in making any parallels.

    I'm a bit torn on the EU myself, as on the one hand it's handy for European nations to be able to negotiate as a block with the wider world and the EU does some good now and then when it comes to upholding some actual principles and slapping member states (including my own) on the fingers when they're being total dicks. On the other there are pretty glaring democracy problems (quite aside from any "EUSSR" (bleh) tinfoil nonsense there's no doubt it moves decision making processes further from the populace and into an arena with less scrutiny and insight), and despite a lot of the federalisation pushes having been downright disastrous (the Eurozone being the crowning glory) there's still a lot of worrying support for an ever-tighter union, which can only lead to the likes of Farage and his even less savoury counterparts in other countries profiting.

    As for the UK, it's a big economy which imports a lot of stuff so there's no doubt people will still want to keep trading with you, but you seem to manufacture nothing that anyone wants to buy aside from hairy pop bands and BBC documentaries (and Attenborough is on his way out, so you're screwed there), so thinking you won't be coming to the table with a weaker hand seems a bit naive.

    If you hate the conservatives as much as any sane person should you probably want to remain in the EU as it's your best chance to mitigate that hateful moral vacuum of a party until the English grow a heart or Scotland grows some balls and actually files for a divorce (seriously what the hell Scotland, I thought you were cool).

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus TheDreamlord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,472
    The way I see it is thus: look at the big picture and see firstly how the two options affect you, as an individual, then how they affect your inner and slightly outer circle. Then look at what you would like the UK to look like in ten or so years time and by extension what you want Europe and the rest of the world to look like.

    Do not look at who is promoting what, since they are all fuckers who have vested interests in the outcome. A referendum is about what you, as an individual, want in a particular matter.

    I have gone back and forth on the whole thing for months now. I am an immigrant here, but I have lived all my adult life since the age of 18 in the UK. I have been naturalised and became a citizen, I have paid all my taxes here and my life is here. Equally crucial, I see the UK as my accepting host country and will forever live like this. I am more British than Greek, for all intents and purposes.
    I loathe how the EU has made an example of Greece (fucked up and corrupt as it was/is) and I am not at all fond of the overarching political and economic power (and vested interests) of the EU bureaucrats. I think the euro is fundamentally flawed and I am glad the UK has kept the pound. Greece got fucked (even more) the moment the euro replaced the drachma (a bunch of parsley sold in the farmers market went up in one day from the equivalent of 0.2 euros in drachmas to 1 euro).
    The immigration policy of inner EU is something I accept and I think is a good thing (the free movement of EU citizens). The outer immigration has been in shambles for a while now, though, not helped at all by Merkel's foolish open invitation a year ago. You simply cannot go against the wishes of a good half of the indigenous population, things are tough economically as they stand, people do not want yet more problems or strain on resources.
    I have been particularly critical on the continual erosion of the secular nature of the European society that was emerging in the last couple of decades. Unfortunately, and I accept this is a sore point of discussion, one of the major reasons is the imbalanced acceptance of islamic religious practices into secular societies.
    I see pockets of unrest everywhere in the world the last few years. Minor (or major in some cases) wars, religious uprisings (Maldives), emerging dictatorships disguised as populist democracy (Turkey, Thailand), political populism based on people being fed up with politicians not at least tending to (let alone championing) local communities/cities/countries (USA and the whole of Europe).
    Both in and out campaigns in the UK have been terrible. Especially the in campaign, which uses scaremongering and in many cases outright lies to put the fear of change and demise in people. Not that the out campaign is much more positive, mind.

    At the same time, the sheer progress in the last 30 years that the EU has achieved in terms of uniting a warring Europe has been astonishing. Europe has prospered, there is no denying in that. The average quality of life has improved dramatically. People started travelling, seeing the world, bought houses and tvs, met and talked to people and cultures in a rate like never before. Infrastructure has improved tremendously.

    This morning I am posting my referendum vote. I am voting "stay in" because, even if I see the current bloated state of the EU as problematic, I want things to improve and not regress back to a state of individualistic countries. I want to be able to travel with less restrictions, not more. I want the UK (myself included) to have a say in what happens in Europe. I want to be part of something bigger, even if big comes with its own problems.
    This crisis, just like every other crisis in the past, will be surpassed at some point. Things will get a bit better, more stable, the economy will get better, things will find yet another (temporary) equilibrium. When that happens, I want to see that progress has been made, on the whole, and not a state of regressed protectionism.

    No one can see the future, but we can all hope and strive and throw in our tiny contribution on a future we actually want to have.
    (sorry for the blanket post, I'm not used to writing these things and might have thrown in the kitchen sink, but ho-hum!)

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus L_No's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    2,602
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDreamlord View Post
    Do not look at who is promoting what, since they are all fuckers who have vested interests in the outcome. A referendum is about what you, as an individual, want in a particular matter.
    While I cannot offer any sound advice re: Brexit or no, I will second this. Decide what you want, not which camp you like better or if you like the suit the talking head of the day is wearing. If that decision places you in a camp that you might dislike for other reasons, than that's a shame, but ideally it shouldn't influence your own decision.
    Want to add me on Steam? Steam name: Mr. Throatwobbler Mangrove

    Guild Wars 2 characters: Norgothus (Norn Necromancer), Maggrivo (Charr Warrior)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Never go full Wulf.

  12. #12
    @GRIZZLY uncertain future? Seriously? Don't be a pillock.

    But I hesitantly agree that staying in the EU is better, The key motivation for most stay votes is to avoid giving racist recidivists masquerading as politicians any kind of victory, which is a bloody stupid reason to vote for anything.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 02-06-2016 at 01:24 PM.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    @GRIZZLY uncertain future? Seriously? Don't be a pillock.

    But I hesitantly agree that staying in the EU is better, The key motivation for most stay votes is to avoid giving racist recidivists masquerading as politicians any kind of victory, which is a bloody stupid reason vote on anything.
    How is he wrong? All the claims about what would happen after Brexit by the pro-Brexit crowd have been vague and ridiculous*, and there are no rational, reasoned, non-partisan groups claiming there'd really be any short-term (like, within 5-10 years) upside in financial/fiscal terms, and there's literally no social/political upside unless you genuinely hate European immigrants, given all the law-related stuff comes down to one of three status:

    1) Stuff where we'd need to comply with EU law anyway in order to interact with the EU.

    2) Stuff where we already have laws which don't really rely on the EU.

    3) Stuff where we'd have to make up laws which would necessarily be basically identical to EU laws.

    So... There's no clear reasoning behind a long-term upside either. At best we'd be where we are now. After maybe ten years of turmoil and financial hardship for the less-well-paid. That's the best case scenario.

    Also, if you think people are voting stay solely to fuck with UKIP, I don't even know what to tell you. That's a bizarre attitude and utterly disconnected from reality. You don't have any European friends/co-workers etc., or friends/relatives who work in Europe? You don't value anything about the EU at all? You don't like relative financial stability? Pretty sure almost everyone voting remain has fairly direct reasons.

    It's inarguably the people voting leave who have the trademark on bizarre reasons, given they're openly admitting they might not even be able to reduce immigration (and no-one has ever actually successfully made a rational case for why it needs to be reduced, either, afaik), wildly lying then back-pedalling about VAT on energy and so on.

    * = Some of the other side's have too, but, as noted, they've relied a lot less on lies and backpedalling (or, BoJo-style, just doubling down on a lies and pathetic cowardly "I'm not saying..." racism).
    Last edited by LexW; 02-06-2016 at 01:36 PM.

  14. #14
    Many countries are not in the EU, GB has not been in the EU most of my life, GB did not have any extreme difference before or after joining EU, there is no reason to expect any extreme difference after leaving.
    All arguments against "Brexiting"(?) are based on disagreeing with extreme statements the pro ridiculous crowd is making, where my argument is 'meh, it's nice to spite racists shit bags'.

    But extremists don't somehow turn leaving a perfectly reasonable thing, when Scotland voted on leaving GB people were internationally cheering Scotland along, because it was fascinating, not because it was genuinely good internationally.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus TheDreamlord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,472
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    GB has not been in the EU most of my life
    I knew it! I knew you were 666 years old!

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Many countries are not in the EU, GB has not been in the EU most of my life, GB did not have any extreme difference before or after joining EU, there is no reason to expect any extreme difference after leaving.
    What the hell are you talking about? Are you role-playing Cthulhu (in which case you are forgiven but maybe make that more clear! Esp. given you were old when the stars were young, iirc), or grotesquely misinformed and yet certain you are right?

    Britain has been in the EU (or rather EEC as we called it then) since 1973. So you would have to be 87 for you claim to be true. Are you 87? This sort of thing is precisely what I'm talking about with ridiculous ill-informed nonsense, btw. The EEC became the EU in 1991, so you'd still have to be at least 51 to even claim that was what you meant. Are you 51?

    Given most of the important stuff relates to stuff that came in with the EEC, too, not the EU, and that the world is an extremely different place now, there is every reason to expect significant problems/changes. Especially as we've built so much of our system around the EU. We sure as hell did see a difference after joining the EEC, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    All arguments against "Brexiting"(?) are based on disagreeing with extreme statements the pro ridiculous crowd is making, where my argument is 'meh, it's nice to spite racists shit bags'.

    But extremists don't somehow turn leaving a perfectly reasonable thing, when Scotland voted on leaving GB people were internationally cheering Scotland along, because it was fascinating, not because it was genuinely good internationally.
    Yeah, YOUR argument. You see that word? YOUR. Not that of most other people. Are you British, btw, I forget? God help us all if you are, because you're not thick generally, but if non-thick people are this misinformed...
    Last edited by LexW; 02-06-2016 at 02:09 PM.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK, Derby
    Posts
    3,643
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    @GRIZZLY uncertain future? Seriously? Don't be a pillock.

    But I hesitantly agree that staying in the EU is better, The key motivation for most stay votes is to avoid giving racist recidivists masquerading as politicians any kind of victory, which is a bloody stupid reason to vote for anything.
    It's really not.

    It's not my only reason, but even if it were: if they win, they get to think and act as if this is a perfectly acceptable way to behave, and part of me would honestly rather have Cameron leading the country for the rest of my life than allow Farage, Bojo and their ilk even the slightest taste of real power. I've never once in my life been proud to be British, but the prospect of actually turning into an island of pitiful caricatures bellowing the national anthem at the top of our lungs and pretending anyone, anywhere in the world honestly cares what we do with ourselves terrifies me.

    The best thing I've read on the whole pathetic mess was from The Economist - (paraphrased) "If 'sovereignty' is harmed by outside interference then North Korea must be the most sovereign country in the world". Case closed, thread over, we're done here. A future decided by blowhard isolationists who'd rather retreat back into their own sad little reality is a future I desperately hope I don't have to be a part of. There's plenty about Cameron's reign to despise (looking forward to the Snooper's Charter in a year or so, that should be... interesting) but he's on the right side here as far as I'm concerned, even if his idea of any kind of "deal" with the EU involves enough "...now tell me how brilliant the UK is again" you'd think his head would have exploded by now.
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 02-06-2016 at 02:15 PM.
    Smashwords (free stories I wrote) | Steam | Tumblr (reviews, games crit etc.)

  18. #18
    Lesser Hivemind Node Lethe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    869
    I wouldn't mind seeing the UK leave, mostly because it makes for a more interesting historical narrative, particularly if followed by the break-up of the UK.
    What though the field be lost? / All is not lost; th’ unconquerable will / And study of revenge, immortal hate / And courage never to submit or yield.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    I'd like to see the UK leave mostly because it makes for a more interesting historical narrative, particularly if followed by the break-up of the UK.
    Doesn't the suffering and harm involved in that concern you? Genuine question.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,103
    Reason for leaving: EU is not the utopian project I thought it was, I don't know if I totally believe all the scare stories that Project Fear 2.0 has spouted out. I actually thin genrally it kind of won't be a massive black hole that will render the UK non existent if we get out of the EU.

    I As for the first one, well being in might make us able to change the EU to be that utopian project though if we are going to vote Tories that is a laughable notion. But I think the EU has done some good and I would not vote for a platform that has Farage and stuff like that.

    But the thing is whats really depressing is that the whole thing is not really about the EU and what its giving to us, Remain is doing fear, Leave is dealing with racism not exactly the thing I want. It gets me depressed and whether we vote in or out it kind of makes me not really want to be in the same country especially all the people that just care how many polish people we are going to get in. I really look at my country and just want to be as far away as possible because it doesn't hold the same values or social judgements that I have. We are just racist and fearful and hateful people.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •