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Thread: Not Excellent

  1. #1

    Not Excellent

    Editorial: An End To “GIT GUD” – You Don’t Need To Be “Good” At Games To Enjoy Them
    To sample a complaint
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyr
    While I also wholeheartedly agree with the article, the presence of insults such as “idiot” or “stupid” and the “fucking” thrown away in a fit of anger – and, consequently, the lack of a developed, deep analysis and arguments in their stead – prevent me from saying it was well written. Which is a real shame, because I applaud the content and opinion. If you read me, John, I hope you will be able to work yourself above those barriers to deliver truly top-notch articles – for example I think you could have delved into the psychological and sociological aspects of the matter, instead of throwing insults.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Walker
    They’re descriptive terms.

    John talks about narrowmindedness and proffers nuggets such as
    Because games aren't exams. And treating them like they are is ugly and stupid
    Well, yeah, that's pretty judgemental, why is it ugly or stupid to do that? Its ugly to force that on others, I profess,but I think that going back through human history, forcing things on people is probably a bad time.

    Later John replied in the comments
    Yes, I said, a critic cannot be inept at a game.
    But that can be a terrible critic, and a critic which lets a narrative of failure equating to irrelevance is probably not capable to self sustain.

    Yes, the comments are a complete dogpile, as ever, and John Walker is far from the worst contained there, but honestly, it is a rant post that wouldn't be productive on this forum and would raise flags, maybe the forum simply has a higher bar.

    I just found the post, and JW's replies poorly tethered, and the writers have an incredible platform to be heard and to create influence, I feel like every wobble in grace is like a building collapsing. Maybe it's the rum talking, but I've not seen this side of JW since he kicked 5 shades of shit out of Peter Molyneux, and I disliked it then, and I dislike it now.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  2. #2
    LOL @ the tone policing of the site owner on his own site.

    Well, yeah, that's pretty judgemental, why is it ugly or stupid to do that?
    I can't believe this needs to be said - because for many, games are meant to be entertainment. Some people may take pleasure in being tortured, but I'd be willing to bet that most don't want that in their entertainment.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by thedosbox View Post
    I can't believe this needs to be said - because for many, games are meant to be entertainment. Some people may take pleasure in being tortured, but I'd be willing to bet that most don't want that in their entertainment.
    Indeed, and people should be free to be able to find their own fun from a wide pool of venues, but if you get that through gritted teeth? How does that become worthless? Games are big enough to be many different things to many different people, but belittling one extreme because it doesn't suit you is what JW is doing, and what he is chiefly complaining about.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedosbox View Post
    LOL @ the tone policing of the site owner on his own site.



    I can't believe this needs to be said - because for many, games are meant to be entertainment. Some people may take pleasure in being tortured, but I'd be willing to bet that most don't want that in their entertainment.
    So it's okay to shame those who are entertained by the pursuit of skill in video games?

  5. #5
    Lesser Hivemind Node Aerothorn's Avatar
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    I mean, Helio, you already know this, but: "Be Excellent" was the rules for the forums, set up by Jim (and still with us today). They are NOT the rules for RPS articles (or even the comments sections, whose rules are basically "don't write stuff we don't like)."

    So you can find it super obnoxious, but there's no conflict here.

  6. #6
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    I find John's comments exceptionally mild in comparison to the invective I've seen hurled at him, at me, or at other forum members. And John gets hurled a lot more invective then most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    So it's okay to shame those who are entertained by the pursuit of skill in video games?
    The attitude that is being adressed is not "People who are entertained by the pursuit of skill in video games", but more attitudes that are in the vein of this. There is a difference in enjoying a thing and accusing others of being subhuman because they don't share your own particular definition of fun. It's the latter that is the problem.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 19-05-2016 at 06:45 AM.
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    Its ugly to force that on others, as you said. Good grief.

    John doesn't say you should be ashamed if you enjoy getting gud. Just that it's obnoxious to say people can't say they don't enjoy the game because they find it difficult. To respond to 'this is frustrating' with 'lol git gud n00b'

    Lets stop trying desparately to pull the victim card out here.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerothorn View Post
    So you can find it super obnoxious, but there's no conflict here.
    You mean I can't send JW to games journalism jail? Darn.

    @Grizzly I agree that the commenters were pretty monstrous (and that's after any removal of the ones that were removed for abuse etc), clearly JW has just kicked a hive, and this proves the legitimacy of his argument.
    I completely agree that for whatever reason that games writers are tethered to the idea of acceptable entry barriers, and many commenters right along side them.

    While these entry barriers, and various sequential hurdles were originally limitations of the form, but somehow the idea that these limits became sacred. Maybe people were scared that the kind of game/difficulty they wanted would become rarer, but games are so varied and diverse that that claim has quite obviously tanked.

    Well, obviously to some.

    I accidentally confused my complaint though, I feel that in lashing out at the repugnance of the 'git gud' crowd they hit out at the fairly global sense of being appropriately (to yourself) challenged.

    I see that as ill informed.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  9. #9
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    I feel that is an oversensitive reading of the article. The article constantly mentions that it's people shouting insults that is the problem, whilst also explaining that the justification they use for their abuse is bullshit. The only way I can see that one could draw the conclusion that this article attacks everyone who enjoys skill in games would be to assume that hurling invective at people for not doing what they want is an intrensic part of being someone who enjoys skill in games. And although I can appreciate that someone might draw that conclusion based on past experiences, this is not something the article supports.

    Ultimately, John is simply intolerant towards the intolerant. This is a proper stance.
    Dirt Rally: The League!
    "Having a creative vision doesn’t mean rejecting good ideas when you recognize them. In fact stubbornly sticking to the original vision in the face of better ideas is a sign of an insecure or egotistical artist, and is the kind of thinking that got us Daikatana." - KillahMate

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I feel that is an oversensitive reading of the article.
    Fair, but I think this is a matter of sensitivity, there are some reviews that are more meaningful from a skill set comparable to your own, a more skilled critic will often be able to explain things better, because they understand things better. There is a reason I gravitate towards 3MA, they know their shit, if they didn't could they provide meaningful commentary (to me) on the games in question? Indeed, when they reach out of their wheelhouse it's stark how quickly the quality tapers off.

    I would never want a review of a board/war game from someone who scarcely understood the rules, but Vidja games increasingly hide their rules, so that all you need to comprehend is on the screen. But if someone gave say, Bloodbowl 2 a bad review because they didn't understand it, or had no patience with the manual, would that review be meaningful for me? But, if someone who had peeled back those layers, and still thought BB2's flaws deserved derision then that would be far more informative.

    If you are incapable of comprehending something, rather than, say sluggish in an action game, how can you review it? Now, I'm currently trying to get into a good place with Cryptark which is joyfully punishing me for every failure of understanding, and while I can enthuse about it, I could get over the hill and see the game for it's flaws, and maybe it's okay that I had a honeymoon period with the game and then I move on, but people lust after the idea of forever games where they never need to start hating the way it chews it's food, of the way it's toes curl up when it sleeps... What was I saying.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  11. #11
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    It's polemic, it's meant to be an entertaining rant and the anger and insults are part of that.

    John's been writing stuff like this for decades, it's sort of expected, it's part of his style, and what defines him as a writer.

    I'd imagine that the primary purpose of this article was not to make a solid point that people will go away and listen to, or even to encourage debate. It was to entertain the readers.

  12. #12
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I would never want a review of a board/war game from someone who scarcely understood the rules, but Vidja games increasingly hide their rules, so that all you need to comprehend is on the screen. But if someone gave say, Bloodbowl 2 a bad review because they didn't understand it, or had no patience with the manual, would that review be meaningful for me? But, if someone who had peeled back those layers, and still thought BB2's flaws deserved derision then that would be far more informative.
    Have you listened to 3MA on Ashes of the Singularity?
    Dirt Rally: The League!
    "Having a creative vision doesn’t mean rejecting good ideas when you recognize them. In fact stubbornly sticking to the original vision in the face of better ideas is a sign of an insecure or egotistical artist, and is the kind of thinking that got us Daikatana." - KillahMate

  13. #13
    @Deano If that's the case then I guess the article is just not my kind of thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Have you listened to 3MA on Ashes of the Singularity?
    It's in my playlist a few notches down, should I push it forward? Why do you ask?
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  14. #14
    Moderator Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    @Deano If that's the case then I guess the article is just not my kind of thing.

    It's in my playlist a few notches down, should I push it forward? Why do you ask?
    Because they do exactly as you subscribe there: They were rather negative towards Ashes of the Singularity partly because it was incomprehensible.
    Dirt Rally: The League!
    "Having a creative vision doesn’t mean rejecting good ideas when you recognize them. In fact stubbornly sticking to the original vision in the face of better ideas is a sign of an insecure or egotistical artist, and is the kind of thinking that got us Daikatana." - KillahMate

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    @Deano If that's the case then I guess the article is just not my kind of thing.
    Nowt wrong with that. But I've been reading John's stuff for over a decade now, from the PC Gamer days onwards. It's a huge of his style (and showing the obvious Stuart Campbell influence). He's arguably become a bit more barbed of late, but then the games industry has become thinner skinned also. And his stuff is reaching a wider audience because of the success of RPS. I laugh when I see this stuff called clickbait because he was writing it before online advertising even existed...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Because they do exactly as you subscribe there: They were rather negative towards Ashes of the Singularity partly because it was incomprehensible.
    That's disappointing.
    Starseed Pilgrim boiled my beets completely, I love it for that, that said, not everyone likes taking stopwatches apart in the dark.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Nowt wrong with that. But I've been reading John's stuff for over a decade now, from the PC Gamer days onwards. It's a huge of his style (and showing the obvious Stuart Campbell influence). He's arguably become a bit more barbed of late, but then the games industry has become thinner skinned also. And his stuff is reaching a wider audience because of the success of RPS. I laugh when I see this stuff called clickbait because he was writing it before online advertising even existed...
    Quite... also it seemed pretty tame at just calling people who shout insults at others. They are fucking morons.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    So it's okay to shame those who are entertained by the pursuit of skill in video games?
    As grizzly noted, it's OK to be intolerant of the intolerant. And specifically those who behave badly.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Malawi Frontier Guard's Avatar
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    Is it OK to be intolerant of the intolerant of the intolerant?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Malawi Frontier Guard View Post
    Is it OK to be intolerant of the intolerant of the intolerant?
    Only if they microwave fish in the office.

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