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  1. #1
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Warhammer 40K games

    Warhammer 40K is one of these franchises that have everything to be turned into video games ; they have well-defined factions, enemies, units, RPG classes, skills, and a huge set of storylines and settings to choose from ; it also has a clear aesthetic that, despite its lack of originality, is still interesting.

    Take the Inquisitors : they are all-powerful people running around the galaxy chasing heretics with a crew of elite operatives. Basically it's Mass Effect : Grimdark Edition.

    And yet, in 20 years, what did we have ? A LOT of crappy browser games, mobile games, some sub-par pc games like the recent Space Hulk and only three decent games. The Dawn of War series, an attempt at recreating the tabletop game, which stemmed most of the 40K memes due to its voice acting, Battlefleet Gothic : Armada which was genuinely good, and Space Marine, which was fun but repetitive as hell.

    That's it. It's rather poor ; besides, all of these games, bar space marine, were barely attempts at turning the tabletop games, or one of the specialist games, into a video game. No one ever made a 40K grand strategy, nor a 40K RPG, except the Inquisitor action-RPG project that may or may not be a disaster.

    Why, exactly ? Is that because of Games Workshop's utter incompetence when it comes to the "intellectual" part of "intellectual property" ? Because of their tendency to whore out...ahem, sell their IPs to sub-par developers ? Or simply the curse of non-videogame franchises ?
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  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Spacewalk's Avatar
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    I had a lot of fun times with Final Liberation, Chaos Gate and Vengeance Of the Blood Angels. There was also that Quake mod which only the most die hard Quakers would remember, Chapter Honour, that was fun for a round or two but being multiplayer only limited my enjoyment. Oh and Shadow Of the Horned Rat which was dead hard but really good so I'd say that there were more than only three decent ones.

  3. #3
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Agreed with these ones - albeit I found them utterly derivative, but I can understand that a fan migh enjoy them alot. However, it doesn't change the fact that no one has ever done an RPG or 4X in a setting that's asking for it. The only thing 40K games have tried to do so far - except Space Marine - is to emulate the tabletop game.
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  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ethelred's Avatar
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    I can't help but think it is a deliberate move on GW's part.



    Added to that WH40k can fit into almost any genre (FPS, Grand strategy etc, Squad based skirmish) and will suffer from massive feature creep.

    For my own part, I am holding out for a grand strategy (with turn based or real time battles) for a fight over a Sector featuring space battles & planetary battles playable as any of the main races with differing objectives.

    OR

    Open world RPS game (like you say Mass Effect) where you start as a Novitiate with your first objective to get your Inquisitors seal.

    OR

    Gorkamorka.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Spacewalk's Avatar
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    The two things that I'd like to see are Sandlot doing an Imperial Guard game, which would be perfect for them, and something like Left 4 Skaven only you have to escape Commorragh and teaming up every race with every other race is okay. It wouldn't fly though but a man can dream.

    And yeah, Gorkamorka.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordShadoko View Post
    The only thing 40K games have tried to do so far - except Space Marine - is to emulate the tabletop game.
    Dawn of War games are not at all an emulations of the tabletop.

  7. #7
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    Dawn of War games are not at all an emulations of the tabletop.
    They are. Not in mechanics, I agree with that. But in spirit, yes. Dawn of War - and especially Dawn of War 2 - is about small squads, companies at best (so, a few dozen - hundred soldiers) fighting in a limited space, where terrain matters. It's exactly the spirit of the tabletop. That's what I meant by "emulate". Exactly like, say, Shadowrun : Dragonfall emulates the pen and paper RPG despite having different mechanics.
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  8. #8
    Network Hub icemann's Avatar
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    For as good as the Dawn of War's were, we have yet to get a "great" 40k game yet. And that wont happen until we get a big RPG set in the universe. And no DoW 2 does not count.

    Same thing applies to Warhammer Fantasy battle.

    Just imagine a big RPG (ala Mass Effect style) in the 40k universe. Except the big threat being a big Tyranid invasion fleet. Now that would be something. For the love of god though, don't have it be a game about anything to do with Chaos. Nearly everything 40k related has been OBSESSED with everything fucking chaos since the beginning. Enough. Time for something else.
    Last edited by icemann; 31-01-2017 at 12:36 PM.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordShadoko View Post
    They are. Not in mechanics, I agree with that. But in spirit, yes. Dawn of War - and especially Dawn of War 2 - is about small squads, companies at best (so, a few dozen - hundred soldiers) fighting in a limited space, where terrain matters. It's exactly the spirit of the tabletop.
    Yeah thats why tabletop guys love DoW so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    Just imagine a big RPG (ala Mass Effect style) in the 40k universe.
    Actually I can't. Because there is only war (and spacemarines). Guns'n'conversations are not exactly a good match for a setting where only following orders and otherwise serving the Emprah until you die is the greatest virtue. I imagine going into some weird places of the setting may be a good idea. Maybe something really small-scale and not involving space marines.

    Naturally no one will ever buy it. No one.
    Last edited by coldvvvave; 31-01-2017 at 01:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    . Guns'n'conversations are not exactly a good match for a setting where only following orders and otherwise serving the Emprah until you die is the greatest virtue. I imagine going into some weird places of the setting may be a good idea. Maybe something really small-scale and not involving space marines.
    There are operatives in the Imperium with great freedom though, the Inquisitors. They must have results, but the way they have those results is entirely up to them. The lore is full of very different Inquisitors, from warlike people ready to start a war for a single relic, to cold-hearted pragmatics really to call Exterminatus on a planet for the slightest hint of heresy, or to careful diplomats like Amberley Vail in the Cain novels. There would be room for choices here.
    Or being a Rogue Trader. In each case, you have your personnal ship and a crew of operatives to build. It's asking for an RPG.
    Last edited by LordShadoko; 31-01-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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  11. #11
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    ok so, I'm not going to get into this thread as a whole, but when listing two inquisitors who are 'very different' you listed 'a brutal zealot ready to kill millions for a small gain' and 'a cold hearted zealot ready to kill millions for a small gain'.

    :D
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  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    In general, 40k is probably too big, bombastic and WAR focused to fit into most genres.

    While you could probably get away with an inquisitor or rogue trader (old school!) RPG, it's hard to have an RPG when everyone murders you on sight and you can't talk to anyone. (Maybe a Diablo type ARPG?).

    For years there were very few GW PC games and we all complained. All i ever wanted was a faithful adaption of the 40k rules to a PC game. But they didn't want to lose tabletop sales by making online versions of their tabletop games.

    Then they changed strategy and gave out licenses to lots of smaller developers, and we all complained.
    they aren't AAA, but who cares.
    A mass effect style AAA RPG would cost a huge amount and be a huge gamble.

    IMHO, their current strategy is probably the best. Their older, mostly abandoned, games were more fun anyway, and they were more disparate and therefore more likely to be adaptable into games.

    The other issue is that if they make the game too similar to the tabletop game then it doesn't work as a PC game, but if they make it too different then it doesn't please the fans. (See Space Hulk or Mordheim respectively)

    I think another problem is that the lore places a lot of restrictions on what they can do.

    Yet another problem is that everyone has their favorite factions, but it's very hard to include all of them in most genres.

    Fire Warrior was an interesting attempt at a 40k FPS - something that at first glance seems like a no-brainer.
    But who wants to play as a TAU? not me. I want to play as an Eldar. But he wants to play as an orc.

    Seems like 40k would make a pretty good battlefield-type game though.

  13. #13
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    ok so, I'm not going to get into this thread as a whole, but when listing two inquisitors who are 'very different' you listed 'a brutal zealot ready to kill millions for a small gain' and 'a cold hearted zealot ready to kill millions for a small gain'.
    Hey, for Warhammer 40K, that's considered as two very different characters - asshole number 1 and asshole number 2.

    Still, 40K grand strategy seems a good choice - costs less than a AAA RPG, and Battlefleet Gothic is almost leaning in that direction already.
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  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Also on the Dawn of War is nothing like the tabletop game side of the fence. It just really really isn't.

    So GW has 2 problems with this.
    A) most of their black library/fluff/etc. output is total fucking dross, which was fine back in the 80s/90s when it was tongue in cheek and had more in common with 2000AD, but nowadays the "lore" police are going to stink up anything creative someone thinks of.
    B) They sell the license out to idiots for the most part. Turns out if you give the 40K license to Relic after they made Homeworld, you get a good RTS out of it. If you hand it to an iOS developer to make an RPG you get a pile of garbage. Who knew!

    So yeah, want a good RPG? Hand it to CD Project Red. Want a good turn based squad tactics game? Firaxis. Good Grand Strategy? Team up with Paradox. Etc. etc. Then leave them to interpret the fluff themselves.

    EDIT: I've still not played BFG: Armada. I keep giving it the shifty eye that it seems to have lots of micro management and ships can turn on the spot too easily.
    Last edited by Zephro; 31-01-2017 at 01:49 PM.

  15. #15
    Lesser Hivemind Node TomxJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Then leave them to interpret the fluff themselves..
    I highly doubt it would be that easy. I can imagine getting ANYTHING signed off creatively by GW would be a real pain in tha backside.

    "Are my Arches Gothy enough?"
    "Nope, Spacewolf needs more teeth"
    "Sorry mate, I think you'll find thats sunburt yellow. That faction are more of a Bad moon yellow"

    Not to mention the hoard of Fanatics that would point out that Bolters are caseless etc.
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  16. #16
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    GW being such a shower of twats over protecting every scrap of their IP is probably why bigger companies generally have no interest in making 40k games. The biggest recent one is Total War: Warhammer and looking at all the creative freedom the devs can't take is almost painful to behold.

    Oh and Dawn of War is nothing like the tabletop, beyond that you can call both of them a 'strategy' game.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomxJ View Post
    I highly doubt it would be that easy. I can imagine getting ANYTHING signed off creatively by GW would be a real pain in tha backside.

    "Are my Arches Gothy enough?"
    "Nope, Spacewolf needs more teeth"
    "Sorry mate, I think you'll find thats sunburt yellow. That faction are more of a Bad moon yellow"

    Not to mention the hoard of Fanatics that would point out that Bolters are caseless etc.
    Which is exactly why it's never happened. Or almost never. But yeah back in the day the 40K fluff was self contradictory, quite silly and obviously just a patchwork of things Rick Priestly or Andy Chambers had read that week, or that the artists had seen in an issue of 2000AD recently. If GW still had that attitude about their own stuff they'd be in a far better place, creatively, to trust video game devs.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    Yeah thats why tabletop guys love DoW so much.


    Actually I can't. Because there is only war (and spacemarines). Guns'n'conversations are not exactly a good match for a setting where only following orders and otherwise serving the Emprah until you die is the greatest virtue. I imagine going into some weird places of the setting may be a good idea. Maybe something really small-scale and not involving space marines.

    Naturally no one will ever buy it. No one.
    You should read the Inquisitor books by Dan Abnett. They flesh out the setting far beyond the 'only war' focus that GW push, and go "Yeah but what about all the stuff happening behind the scenes, life on these crowded hive-planets, the cults creeping among the aristocracy..?"

    Early 40k seeded so much stuff that was later basically forgotten or all-out-axed (Female Space Marine chapters, anyone? The whole Inquisitorial civil war over the fact that the Emperor's dead (now redacted to "just really, really old")? Used to be canon. Now, you can have Victor Vram's sister in her metal corset and be grateful, dammit)

    Modern 40k is.. Eh. So completely cardboard-cutout dull, by comparison. The Horus Heresy was literally the only thing that happened, ever, in the universe, for all you'd know from the games, marketing, 99% of books, etc. Space Marines are Lawful Good Space Nazis rather than "Hypermilitarized Judge Dredd with a splash of Crusade-era zealotry Space Nazis", which leads to "Yeah but all the awful stuff they do must be justified, or they'll lose Good Guy status & we'll lose sales..".

    It's gone from comedy "Everyone's a shit and it's tragicomic" to "All the foreigners are shits, the Fash are the only way to survive, and I guess they do shitty stuff sometimes, but there's no other choice honest." in the struggle to make it more of a palatable Good vs Evil narrative.

    Blegh. Bad taste in my mouth.
    Last edited by Dilapinated; 31-01-2017 at 03:47 PM.
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  19. #19
    Lesser Hivemind Node LordShadoko's Avatar
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    I've still not played BFG: Armada. I keep giving it the shifty eye that it seems to have lots of micro management and ships can turn on the spot too easily.
    Armada is good BUT extremely, extremely heavy on micro. It reminds me of a purified, refined and more functional version of the shit-show that was Empire : Total War naval combat.

    It's gone from comedy "Everyone's a shit and it's tragicomic" to "All the foreigners are shits, the Fash are the only way to survive, and I guess they do shitty stuff sometimes, but there's no other choice honest." in the struggle to make it more of a palatable Good vs Evil narrative.
    Without adding the fact that the lore is generally an utter mess. However, it's worth noting that, if GW's stance on the Imperium is "it's shit, it's grimdark !" the books have a much more balanced view ; especially Dan Abnett's works (which are, by the way, among the best the Blanck Library can produce) show that the Imperium can be a pretty nice place to live due to its sheer size, which means a fair bunch of planets have never known war and you can find some very competent AND democratic governments within.
    GW being GW though, the Imperium has to be grimdark. I mean, they are able to produce billions of billions of lasguns every year and yet the official fluff says they have troubles securing the food suplly of their city planets ? That's just bollocks.

    However, the Rogue Trader era was much funnier. Not necesseraly better, but funnier ( beaky helmets ftw.
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  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Dan Abnett is a shit show. He can just about manage comics but he can not write a novel, and saying he's the best Black library author just shows the utter dearth of writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordShadoko View Post
    Armada is good BUT extremely, extremely heavy on micro. It reminds me of a purified, refined and more functional version of the shit-show that was Empire : Total War naval combat.
    Yeah so as an extremely avid BFG player, it's one of the slower GW games of large scale graceful manoeuvres and momentum over several turns. So basically the exact fucking opposite of micro. It was all about getting a good sweeping formation for your ships to be in place 2-3 turns from now. Hence my deep suspicion.

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