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  1. #1
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    Ahh, ahh, Kerbal Space Program drama :[

    Some context:

    Almost all of the high profile developers leaving: reddit.
    Squad reacts by being very optimistic: forums.
    Person claiming to have insider knowledge, blessed by the mods: more reddit.

    Older context: some old article on a website.

    It's rather sad, and Porkjet leaving with a known likely unfinished project (rocket engine redesign) is suspicious. On the other hand, many of the claims are uncorroborated, while on the third hand, most devs probably have too much at stake to speak out.

  2. #2
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    What? Oh, I was really looking forwards to the engine redesigns. :(
    It's the problem with companies owning games. They work as companies, not as artists.
    But then again, when artists own games they work as artists... and most of us don't want this as our game:

    (Or insert NMS screenshot ;) )
    [Edit]
    Squad update just posted here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/...omment-2787555
    Yep, very much business speak and very little actual human language or emotion (though I agree arguments, if any, need not be made public, they could still be a little more clear on direction).
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 05-10-2016 at 11:17 PM.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EPICTHEFAIL's Avatar
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    Well, considering KSP isn't in any way reliant on servers for gameplay and is already extremely moddable, this isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds, since it's not like it'll be rendered unplayable once support is yanked. Squad are probably going to abandon it once 1.2 is kicked out the door, but if anything this is going to allow the mod community to flourish even more than it already has since they no longer have to worry about patches potentially breaking shit, and some of the developers may well end up pitching in pretty much continuing work unofficially. It is certainly sad given the apparent circumstances of their departure (Squad upper management appears to be populated by pointy-haired bosses), but almost certainly not the end of the game, assuming Squad don't do something spectacularly stupid to cripple the game's mod potential, which is unlikely but possible.

  4. #4
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    I doubt the marketing will allow them to abandon it (too big a player base, sequels for content games tend not to happen). It's going to be like MC and Microsoft. Though I doubt they may have all the knack MS have. It may go ok, it may go bizarre (F2P models, In App Purchases). It all depends if on the real person pulling the strings, and in this case we don't really know how they feel.

    Some of the other devs are still there, and it is mainly those who came in from the modding community leaving. So things like additional content coding and art. The main early coders left a while ago (The creators of KSP etc), but others have stayed.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    So Squad basically teabagged KSP: it doesn't really hurt the game as it is, but it does leave a bad taste in your mouth. Those dudes have been trying their best to fuck up KSP for years: Curse, Flying Tiger, the beta announcement, arbitrary "1.0" release, forum upgrade, etc. Every decision they've made has been to do things as cheaply as possible, taking their community and developers utterly for granted, with little communication or or dialog with players. (The mods and community managers have been awesome, but it's clear that Squad basically struck gold on accident, doesn't know what it's doing in this market, and so is flogging its mules, skimping on equipment, and scorching the earth to squeeze whatever they can out of that mine until it's gone.)

  6. #6
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    Except the mine isn't gone. KSP exists, has been tons of fun for countless of people for years now and won't disappear. At worst they just failed to keep making it better.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    They have done a terrible job of fucking up KSP, because it is amazing.
    I am once again writing a blog, vaguely about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    They have done a terrible job of fucking up KSP, because it is amazing.
    That much is true. And even if they do something terrible (say, replace Kerbal textures with human faces. Look it up if you need to stay up for a few days), KSP has no DRM — not even the Steam version — so you can keep an archive of old version. I'd keep 1.2 around, it's going to be glorious.

    EDIT: sorry, got lost in Reddit, the below is actually quite old. Still relevant, IMO.

    Meanwhile, on the frontlines, NovaSilisko seems to at least partially confirm (link to Reddit) complaints.

    (BTW, why do I care? Because I care about worker's rights, that's why)
    Last edited by aleander; 06-10-2016 at 05:21 PM.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    They have done a terrible job of fucking up KSP, because it is amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    it doesn't really hurt the game as it is, but it does leave a bad taste in your mouth. Those dudes have been trying their best to fuck up KSP for years
    (emphasis added)

    KSP is my favorite game ever. Felipe Falanghe is a passionate genius. The modders and other developers are amazingly talented. Squad, on the other hand, is a frustratingly incompetent two-bit marketing outfit. It's like having Michelangelo's Pieta in a carnival tent. It's still amazing and worth seeing, but maybe not the best environment for it. KSP has thrived most to the extent and in the areas that Squad has kept its hands off.

  10. #10
    KSP has abysmal reliability. It's a big glitchfest. It runs badly due to shoddy, poorly put together physics. I have lost a mission countless times because of various bugs and control lag and so forth.

    BUT...yeah, it's fun as heck to play. I've put more hours into it than any other game I own. And it's less buggy than it was, just still very buggy. It's obviously a much bigger game now than it was ever designed to be. What a shame.

    I've definitely gotten my money's worth from the game, it's just a shame that the money Squad has earned isn't being reinvested efficiently to make it the best game it can be. Squad's received at LEAST 30 million dollars in revenue from the product. If the devs were paid 50k a year and they had 10 devs, they could develop the game for 20 years and keep 2/3 of the revenue as profit.

  11. #11
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    Raising this thread from the dead as it seems that the mystery of where all those devs went has, six months later, been solved:

    They went to Valve (allegedly)

    Which is kinda interesting, and hopeful-ish. The "ish" because I think we're talking about the main batch of devs here, not necessarily the original designer.

    KSP's allure is in its design. Its implementation has been.... a bit duct tape at times. What I'm saying is that if all Valve has acquired is some enthusiastic & dedicated coders this may not be such a scoop.
    Last edited by MiniMatt; 22-05-2017 at 08:51 PM. Reason: "its" with possessive apostrophes is my kryptonite

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    I'm sure they'll enjoy their time at valve... developing new authentication systems for trading cards, rejigging review systems in confusing ways, introducing new ways to organize the store homepage, etc...

  13. #13
    Lesser Hivemind Node Aerothorn's Avatar
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    I realize such jokes are easy, but everything we know says Valve are making a big push on making video games again, with the caveat that all such titles will be VR.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BillButNotBen's Avatar
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    That's good / bad news. It'd be nice to see them making games again, but I don't have VR.

    I was mostly joking, but I did go through a very short
    "That's great, I wonder what they'll make! :-) "
    --->
    "Oh, valve don't really make games anymore :-( "
    emotional/metal arc when I read about it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_W View Post
    Those dudes have been trying their best to fuck up KSP for years
    I do not know any of the names mentioned (Squad etc), i did not get that far into KSB.

    About 3 years back when i was interested in the game i joined the forum and posted a simple question about language files and if it was going to have translation into language X (as a family friend would have liked that). I even had spent about an hour trawling their website for info on this and searched the forums (like in the FAQ etc). There was no information about this.

    My post was locked and my account suspended. I even (stupidly) spent time reading through forum rules to see what i had done wrong. Ultimately i ended up thinking 'well ok F**k you and your game, i'll spend my money someplace else.'

    So yeah. Not the best first impression to give a prospective customer, but i figured some rather messed up shit must be going on around the game, and the times i've heard the stuff this thread goes into would sort of support that concern. Bad management kills many things, or hampers their potential.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    ...question about language files and if it was going to have translation into language X...

    ...My post was locked and my account suspended. I even (stupidly) spent time reading through forum rules to see what i had done wrong. Ultimately i ended up thinking 'well ok F**k you and your game, i'll spend my money someplace else.'
    Sounds like you got supremely unlucky there as the KSP community is generally regarded as one of the more friendly & welcoming out there with community staff & devs alike being professional yet human regardless of what back office drama may be unfolding.

    And there does seem to be a steady stream of back office drama, granted.

    Anyway, latest update - releasing any moment now (for the last three months) is largely all about localisation. Chinese, Japanese, Russian & Spanish getting full translations, and the framework completed for Squad, or modders, to plug in future translations.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiniMatt View Post
    Raising this thread from the dead as it seems that the mystery of where all those devs went has, six months later, been solved:

    They went to Valve (allegedly)

    Which is kinda interesting, and hopeful-ish. The "ish" because I think we're talking about the main batch of devs here, not necessarily the original designer.

    KSP's allure is in its design. Its implementation has been.... a bit duct tape at times. What I'm saying is that if all Valve has acquired is some enthusiastic & dedicated coders this may not be such a scoop.
    This. I've no idea if it was a design choice or a coding choice but for example, fairings. Other modders have done it, so it's "possible" not "impossible" to code in the engine, but by choice or design, they used the worse implementation. How?

    Fairings generally IRL got around the sides. Now coding for donuts/hollow cylinders in any engine is difficult. But fairings have the option to split in half, so you have an easy save there. Plus they have coded for hollow structures and many parts do have cargo/internal space with the right style of colliders. In fact they did code the fairings this way... but they implemented it as a central part, placed below a part/cargo. Why is this bad?

    The game hates small parts, as these add wobble due to being small and an elbow/knee like effect kicks in. So the current fairings are woblly, weak and rather hard to use. The game already supports externally attached parts (side decouplers, solar panels etc) and area aware grouping (so it would know what is "inside" and "outside" a fairing). And as said, some modders got it perfect.

    So they chose the quickest/worse method, over one that would have taken a little longer. Add to that one of the hired modders offered and FINISHED and entire art pass that improved it past the "beta" style, good, but could use some polish artwork. They never bothered with it. :( (I'll forgive them if licencing talks messed it up, but if the modder was doing it part of their wages, why turn it down!)

    PS, I do agree with the comments that the designers/programmers were really good at refining the game and making good choices and treating the customers/players well. So I chalk most of the problems up to funding/time (They got paid pennies, quite literally AFAIK).

    Zag, it may be you got hit by a random new/confused mod. The forums are generally really well managed, but as you can understand would need a LOT of mods. They have had occasional times where someone clicked the wrong button. For example 2 MASSIVE threads, one SpaceX one Blue Origin, got merged because a noob mod thought "oh, both rockets, both relaunched, same thing... right!?!!!!" But for politeness they never pointed out who, and probably just removed or retrained them. ;)
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; Yesterday at 10:49 AM.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Matt_W's Avatar
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    I was a forum regular for years, very involved in helping new users, testing mods, arguing science, even did some modding myself. I rarely visit anymore, mostly just to pick up the newest mod versions every couple of months when I get the urge to dust the game off and launch some rockets. Apparently this year, in January, some forum snafu resulting in the loss of several very lengthy (>1000 posts) forum threads relating to particular mods, and they were unable to recover them. Some of those mod threads were for mods that I considered among the best ever produced for the game (e.g. BTSM) that are now wiped from history forever. This is the third time this kind of thing has happened on those forums, and is really discouraging. It's hard to maintain interest in the community beyond the game itself.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    That's good / bad news. It'd be nice to see them making games again, but I don't have VR.
    That's the point - they're trying to make VR games that put VR on the gaming map, rather than just a novelty for single men flush with cash and an overly well paid job in IT.
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  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    So Valve essentially killed a game I like (by scooping up most of its development team) so that it could use those developers to develop games for hardware I explicitly want to fail. How typically Valve.

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